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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 124

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

From the article, talking about the ‘fans’:

They never call it “bad logic” when it’s something they like.

Or when it’s something that makes them feel good. This reveals everything. Because there are plenty of things I find objectionable in a given film and could apply a logic argument to, but I don’t. Because that’s not the point of storytelling, nor why I’d really find the given issue to be objectionable. It’s all about how characters grow, change and are in conflict in one another.

I feel like a creator should always have the intended audience in mind, so as best to know when they can get away with narrative cheats. For example, if the audience is invested in a familiarly textured story, such as the first third of TFA, you can have one coincidence after another and the audience will buy it because they want to be immersed in this world.

However, if you’re giving the audience something new, something difficult and perhaps uncomfortable to deal with, you want to make sure that your story logic is absolutely sound because the audience will be closely examining the rules of the world to make sure that the movie still ‘works’ for them.

In regards to TLJ, he’s saying there’s no bad logic in the first place, just people projecting it onto situations they don’t personally like. Are you just saying they needed to go the extra mile to make the logic of everything clear? Just seems like unnecessary hand holding to me, and I’m sure you’d still get people criticizing that aspect of the film anyway.

In general, I agree with him. Criticisms about logic and plot holes are some of the basest anyone could come up with. Rarely do they have much to deal with what’s actually important about the movie’s story. Most movies are not logic puzzles, Star Wars especially.

Yet logic used in stories is like grammar used in poetry. We can forgive poetic license, since it serves a purpose, but in general the words should adhere to some grammatical structure (logic) to make sense. The existence of poetic license should not be used as a free pass for a poor grasp of grammar.

There is in story “logic,” and there is out of story real world logic, which may or may not even apply to the story depending on the complaint.

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TV’s Frink said:

SilverWook said:

I get the joke, but it’s in questionable taste to show Carrie looking like that.

Questionable?

Would you rather I curse a lot and suggest some arms need to be ripped off? 😉

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Where were you in '77?

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DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

From the article, talking about the ‘fans’:

They never call it “bad logic” when it’s something they like.

Or when it’s something that makes them feel good. This reveals everything. Because there are plenty of things I find objectionable in a given film and could apply a logic argument to, but I don’t. Because that’s not the point of storytelling, nor why I’d really find the given issue to be objectionable. It’s all about how characters grow, change and are in conflict in one another.

I feel like a creator should always have the intended audience in mind, so as best to know when they can get away with narrative cheats. For example, if the audience is invested in a familiarly textured story, such as the first third of TFA, you can have one coincidence after another and the audience will buy it because they want to be immersed in this world.

However, if you’re giving the audience something new, something difficult and perhaps uncomfortable to deal with, you want to make sure that your story logic is absolutely sound because the audience will be closely examining the rules of the world to make sure that the movie still ‘works’ for them.

In regards to TLJ, he’s saying there’s no bad logic in the first place, just people projecting it onto situations they don’t personally like. Are you just saying they needed to go the extra mile to make the logic of everything clear? Just seems like unnecessary hand holding to me, and I’m sure you’d still get people criticizing that aspect of the film anyway.

In general, I agree with him. Criticisms about logic and plot holes are some of the basest anyone could come up with. Rarely do they have much to deal with what’s actually important about the movie’s story. Most movies are not logic puzzles, Star Wars especially.

Yet logic used in stories is like grammar used in poetry. We can forgive poetic license, since it serves a purpose, but in general the words should adhere to some grammatical structure (logic) to make sense. The existence of poetic license should not be used as a free pass for a poor grasp of grammar.

There is in story “logic,” and there is out of story real world logic, which may or may not even apply to the story depending on the complaint.

Sure, but then considering it’s a long standing franchise, there’s also in-universe logic, the grammar as set up by the inventor of the language.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

From the article, talking about the ‘fans’:

They never call it “bad logic” when it’s something they like.

Or when it’s something that makes them feel good. This reveals everything. Because there are plenty of things I find objectionable in a given film and could apply a logic argument to, but I don’t. Because that’s not the point of storytelling, nor why I’d really find the given issue to be objectionable. It’s all about how characters grow, change and are in conflict in one another.

I feel like a creator should always have the intended audience in mind, so as best to know when they can get away with narrative cheats. For example, if the audience is invested in a familiarly textured story, such as the first third of TFA, you can have one coincidence after another and the audience will buy it because they want to be immersed in this world.

However, if you’re giving the audience something new, something difficult and perhaps uncomfortable to deal with, you want to make sure that your story logic is absolutely sound because the audience will be closely examining the rules of the world to make sure that the movie still ‘works’ for them.

In regards to TLJ, he’s saying there’s no bad logic in the first place, just people projecting it onto situations they don’t personally like. Are you just saying they needed to go the extra mile to make the logic of everything clear? Just seems like unnecessary hand holding to me, and I’m sure you’d still get people criticizing that aspect of the film anyway.

In general, I agree with him. Criticisms about logic and plot holes are some of the basest anyone could come up with. Rarely do they have much to deal with what’s actually important about the movie’s story. Most movies are not logic puzzles, Star Wars especially.

Yet logic used in stories is like grammar used in poetry. We can forgive poetic license, since it serves a purpose, but in general the words should adhere to some grammatical structure (logic) to make sense. The existence of poetic license should not be used as a free pass for a poor grasp of grammar.

This is an insanely apt analogy, actually.

Seeking only the most natural looking colors for Star Wars '77

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oojason said:

DominicCobb said:

Mavimao said:

Here’s an excellent article on The Last Jedi and why it has elicited such a backlash from fans.

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Hmm

DominicCobb said:

Insightful look on the film and its response (I guess I should say I don’t agree with everything said, but it’s worth reading):

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

Many quality, insightful and also challenging articles can be found at the Guardian & Observer (it’s Sunday sister paper) - pleasing to see them get some a mention and some love on here too 😃

I don’t think that site is related to those papers though.

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i agree with pretty much everything DrDre has said about tlj since his first post in the tlj review thread.

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DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

From the article, talking about the ‘fans’:

They never call it “bad logic” when it’s something they like.

Or when it’s something that makes them feel good. This reveals everything. Because there are plenty of things I find objectionable in a given film and could apply a logic argument to, but I don’t. Because that’s not the point of storytelling, nor why I’d really find the given issue to be objectionable. It’s all about how characters grow, change and are in conflict in one another.

I feel like a creator should always have the intended audience in mind, so as best to know when they can get away with narrative cheats. For example, if the audience is invested in a familiarly textured story, such as the first third of TFA, you can have one coincidence after another and the audience will buy it because they want to be immersed in this world.

However, if you’re giving the audience something new, something difficult and perhaps uncomfortable to deal with, you want to make sure that your story logic is absolutely sound because the audience will be closely examining the rules of the world to make sure that the movie still ‘works’ for them.

In regards to TLJ, he’s saying there’s no bad logic in the first place, just people projecting it onto situations they don’t personally like. Are you just saying they needed to go the extra mile to make the logic of everything clear? Just seems like unnecessary hand holding to me, and I’m sure you’d still get people criticizing that aspect of the film anyway.

In general, I agree with him. Criticisms about logic and plot holes are some of the basest anyone could come up with. Rarely do they have much to deal with what’s actually important about the movie’s story. Most movies are not logic puzzles, Star Wars especially.

I said that the logic of the scene should be sound, not necessarily hand-holdingly clear. To use Hulk’s example of Holdo not telling Poe the plan, consider the scene where Poe learns that the escape pods are being fueled. He shouts about how they’re simply abandoning ship with no other recourse, and accuses Holdo of cowardice and treason.

Now a competent commander could do at least two things in this situation to solve the problem:

1: Lock Poe in the brig for insubordination. This is the logical choice for someone following a strict military hierarchy, and would have still allowed for him to escape from the brig and stage a mutiny, now with even more drama than before.

2: Tell Poe that there is a plan beyond simply abandoning ship. This would make sense under a Leia-style informal hierarchy, and no more sensitive information would be compromised. After all, he already knows about the cloaked escape craft, dooming the Resistance if he were to blab about it. Holdo also professes to like him somehow, even after his mutiny. So why not clue him in?

Holdo does neither of these things, and knowing she has an insubordinate and potentially mutinous captain on board, she takes no action to ameliorate the situation. To be clear, Poe is in the wrong. But Holdo’s logic is shaky at best, right at the moment when it needs to be absolutely sound for the audience to accept the drama unfolding on the bridge. Otherwise it feels like fake drama, manufactured to have people shout at each other.

Maybe I care too much about the logic of a situation, I don’t know. But to say that a character arc trumps the logic of the universe is to exclude the audience from the movie. We can’t appreciate decisions (like a commander ignoring an insubordinate officer) if we don’t know why they were made, and we can’t anticipate epic actions (like a hyperspace ramming maneuver) if the action throws the established rules of the universe into chaos.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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I fail to see why her actions are illogical (or “throw the universe into chaos” haha okay), in or out of the world of the film, but whatever, you do you. You seem to be doing exactly what Hulk is suggesting, only accepting ‘what you would do’ as correct, and everything else as plot hole, whether it makes sense for the characters or not.

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Collipso said:

i agree with pretty much everything DrDre has said about tlj since his first post in the tlj review thread.

Yes we know.

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DominicCobb said:

Mavimao said:

Here’s an excellent article on The Last Jedi and why it has elicited such a backlash from fans.

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Hmm

DominicCobb said:

Insightful look on the film and its response (I guess I should say I don’t agree with everything said, but it’s worth reading):

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

Sorry! I hadn’t seen your post!

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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Mavimao said:

DominicCobb said:

Mavimao said:

Here’s an excellent article on The Last Jedi and why it has elicited such a backlash from fans.

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Hmm

DominicCobb said:

Insightful look on the film and its response (I guess I should say I don’t agree with everything said, but it’s worth reading):

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

Sorry! I hadn’t seen your post!

I had! And I forgot! I’m getting older every day!

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Collipso said:

we need the like button

Yeah, otherwise we just have to grade posts to tell people how we feel about them.

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Mavimao said:

DominicCobb said:

Mavimao said:

Here’s an excellent article on The Last Jedi and why it has elicited such a backlash from fans.

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Hmm

DominicCobb said:

Insightful look on the film and its response (I guess I should say I don’t agree with everything said, but it’s worth reading):

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

Sorry! I hadn’t seen your post!

Ha, no worries. Just funny that it wasn’t til you posted that people noticed. I think some people have me on “ignore” (and perhaps justifiably so).

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DominicCobb said:

Mavimao said:

DominicCobb said:

Mavimao said:

Here’s an excellent article on The Last Jedi and why it has elicited such a backlash from fans.

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Hmm

DominicCobb said:

Insightful look on the film and its response (I guess I should say I don’t agree with everything said, but it’s worth reading):

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

Sorry! I hadn’t seen your post!

Ha, no worries. Just funny that it wasn’t til you posted that people noticed. I think some people have me on “ignore” (and perhaps justifiably so).

i disagree with pretty much everything you have said about everything since your first post in the thread you first posted in.

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TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

Mavimao said:

DominicCobb said:

Mavimao said:

Here’s an excellent article on The Last Jedi and why it has elicited such a backlash from fans.

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Hmm

DominicCobb said:

Insightful look on the film and its response (I guess I should say I don’t agree with everything said, but it’s worth reading):

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

Sorry! I hadn’t seen your post!

Ha, no worries. Just funny that it wasn’t til you posted that people noticed. I think some people have me on “ignore” (and perhaps justifiably so).

i disagree with pretty much everything you have said about everything since your first post in the thread you first posted in.

Oh really? Are you sure you don’t want to find working download links for Hal9000’s first ROTS edit from 10 years ago where he only changed like three things about it?

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DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

Mavimao said:

DominicCobb said:

Mavimao said:

Here’s an excellent article on The Last Jedi and why it has elicited such a backlash from fans.

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Hmm

DominicCobb said:

Insightful look on the film and its response (I guess I should say I don’t agree with everything said, but it’s worth reading):

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

Sorry! I hadn’t seen your post!

Ha, no worries. Just funny that it wasn’t til you posted that people noticed. I think some people have me on “ignore” (and perhaps justifiably so).

i disagree with pretty much everything you have said about everything since your first post in the thread you first posted in.

Oh really? Are you sure you don’t want to find working download links for Hal9000’s first ROTS edit from 10 years ago where he only changed like three things about it?

Man this makes me wonder what my first post was…

Edit: 10th of June 2005. I talked about how much detail was to be found on the earth-shattering Xo project!

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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Oh please. Did we criticise Ewoks because of ‘toxic masculinity’? Did we balk at the plotholes created by the prequels because of latent sexism? Did we hate Midichlorians because it threatened the patriarchy? Did we cringe at Padme/Anakin’s romance dialogue because we’re trapped in some selfish power-fantasy? No, these were simply film critiques. Nothing more, nothing less. And despite a few racist/sexist imbeciles on the internet (which are everywhere - it’s not a ‘Star Wars thing’) TLJ is getting exactly the same treatment as every other SW movie. This ‘toxic fandom’ crap is getting old. We should be able, as fans, to discuss potential plotholes and canon discrepancies without being told by some sanctimonious article that we don’t understand the nuances of this brilliant film because we’re secretly struggling with our own deeply held sexism/racism.

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Did we hate Midichlorians because it threatened the patriarchy?

Hahaha!

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Shopping Maul said:

Oh please. Did we criticise Ewoks because of ‘toxic masculinity’? Did we balk at the plotholes created by the prequels because of latent sexism? Did we hate Midichlorians because it threatened the patriarchy? Did we cringe at Padme/Anakin’s romance dialogue because we’re trapped in some selfish power-fantasy? No, these were simply film critiques. Nothing more, nothing less. And despite a few racist/sexist imbeciles on the internet (which are everywhere - it’s not a ‘Star Wars thing’) TLJ is getting exactly the same treatment as every other SW movie. This ‘toxic fandom’ crap is getting old. We should be able, as fans, to discuss potential plotholes and canon discrepancies without being told by some sanctimonious article that we don’t understand the nuances of this brilliant film because we’re secretly struggling with our own deeply held sexism/racism.

Must have hit a little close to the mark to get you all riled up like that.

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TV’s Frink said:

Shopping Maul said:

Oh please. Did we criticise Ewoks because of ‘toxic masculinity’? Did we balk at the plotholes created by the prequels because of latent sexism? Did we hate Midichlorians because it threatened the patriarchy? Did we cringe at Padme/Anakin’s romance dialogue because we’re trapped in some selfish power-fantasy? No, these were simply film critiques. Nothing more, nothing less. And despite a few racist/sexist imbeciles on the internet (which are everywhere - it’s not a ‘Star Wars thing’) TLJ is getting exactly the same treatment as every other SW movie. This ‘toxic fandom’ crap is getting old. We should be able, as fans, to discuss potential plotholes and canon discrepancies without being told by some sanctimonious article that we don’t understand the nuances of this brilliant film because we’re secretly struggling with our own deeply held sexism/racism.

Must have hit a little close to the mark to get you all riled up like that.

Sounds reasonable.

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TV’s Frink said:

Shopping Maul said:

Oh please. Did we criticise Ewoks because of ‘toxic masculinity’? Did we balk at the plotholes created by the prequels because of latent sexism? Did we hate Midichlorians because it threatened the patriarchy? Did we cringe at Padme/Anakin’s romance dialogue because we’re trapped in some selfish power-fantasy? No, these were simply film critiques. Nothing more, nothing less. And despite a few racist/sexist imbeciles on the internet (which are everywhere - it’s not a ‘Star Wars thing’) TLJ is getting exactly the same treatment as every other SW movie. This ‘toxic fandom’ crap is getting old. We should be able, as fans, to discuss potential plotholes and canon discrepancies without being told by some sanctimonious article that we don’t understand the nuances of this brilliant film because we’re secretly struggling with our own deeply held sexism/racism.

Must have hit a little close to the mark to get you all riled up like that.

I guess you don’t know everything about women yet.

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DominicCobb said:

I fail to see why her actions are illogical (or “throw the universe into chaos” haha okay), in or out of the world of the film, but whatever, you do you. You seem to be doing exactly what Hulk is suggesting, only accepting ‘what you would do’ as correct, and everything else as plot hole, whether it makes sense for the characters or not.

You don’t see why her actions are illogical? I suppose they aren’t, presuming that she’s a particularly poor leader. For example:

-She fails to adequately enforce discipline on her ship (not locking Poe up even after he breaks onto the bridge and accuses her of treason)
-She twice resorts to platitudes in the face of direct questions for basic, unclassified information (Poe is clear that he just wants to know if the is a plan, not its specifics)
-Her eventual plan has multiple points of failure, and even fails at two of those points
-She waits until almost a dozen of the escape ships have been destroyed before taking any action to help them
-Her two big tactical decisions rely on rules of the universe that don’t make sense on a basic, physical level yet seem to work anyway (1: She relies on ‘cloaked’ escape craft which are nevertheless visible to the naked eye, and which are discoverable on a ‘decloaking scan’ or any life sign scan which the First Order should be running constantly. 2: The surprise of her hyperspace ramming maneuver relies on every officer in the First Order failing to comprehend that light speed can be used as a weapon, making it dramatically unsatisfying as a solution to the problem, beyond the larger issues with basic military strategy in Star Wars history).

…and most of these things would be fine if the movie treated her as a poor commander with an even worse subordinate, but as I said, her plans still work merely because the movie says so and her counterproductive platitudes are clearly meant to exemplify the message of the movie’s protagonists. She is clearly the protege of Leia, and dies a hero in the most epic way imaginable. Why should I care about the Resistance if it is being led by people like this? No wonder their allies don’t come to the rescue.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)