If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place — Page 390

suspiciouscoffee said:

Jay said:

moviefreakedmind said:

I have a feeling that comicbooks, like movies, video games, books, and almost everything else, aren’t anywhere near as politically subversive or progressive as people think. Typically corporate media tries not to be too progressive. I don’t know where the idea that every single media outlet is pushing progressive politics comes from.

EDIT: I know where the idea comes from, but I don’t know why anyone believes it.

but I’ve seen examples where a character’s sexuality was awkwardly inserted without much regard for its relevance to the story.

Yeah, like how my own actual gayness was awkwardly inserted without regard for its “relevance” to the lives of those around me! It’s almost like non-straight people exist on their own whether its relevant to anyone else or not.

Do you tell every person you meet that you’re gay and push it into everyday conversation or do you share that part of yourself when it makes sense in your life, i.e. your story?

moviefreakedmind said:

I’d compare awkward insertion of sexuality without relevance to the story to when characters are awkwardly made to have romantic or flirtatious interactions with people of the opposite sex with no regard for its relevance to the story.

Exactly. It applies to straight characters as well.

suspiciouscoffee said:

Jay said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

Jay said:

moviefreakedmind said:

I have a feeling that comicbooks, like movies, video games, books, and almost everything else, aren’t anywhere near as politically subversive or progressive as people think. Typically corporate media tries not to be too progressive. I don’t know where the idea that every single media outlet is pushing progressive politics comes from.

EDIT: I know where the idea comes from, but I don’t know why anyone believes it.

but I’ve seen examples where a character’s sexuality was awkwardly inserted without much regard for its relevance to the story.

Yeah, like how my own actual gayness was awkwardly inserted without regard for its “relevance” to the lives of those around me! It’s almost like non-straight people exist on their own whether its relevant to anyone else or not.

Do you tell every person you meet that you’re gay and push it into everyday conversation

No, but some people might because of how incredibly liberating it is just to be able to safely tell people about it after years of closet life. Even then, I can’t think of any times anyone in a comic has just run up to people on the street to tell people how gay they are.

And I get that. All I’m saying is that if it’s in furtherance of the story and/or the artist wants it in there, cool, no problem. They just shouldn’t feel obligated to shoehorn that aspect of a character into the plot because a group of people think they should.

One of my best friends growing up was a 50-year-old lesbian. It’s all good with me.

DominicCobb said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Artists aren’t obligated to do anything. If it’s an obligation then it isn’t art.

They aren’t obligated, but many leave out diversity almost by accident or out of habit. I think we should be careful about forcing an artist to do something they don’t feel is right for their story, but there should be someone there to check and ask the questions that need asking. Does this character really need to be a white man? Is there a good reason why 90% of the speaker characters are dudes?

Again, it’s not a matter of forcing, it’s a matter of looking long and hard at the work and asking why it isn’t diverse. The truth is, most of the time, there isn’t a good reason.

This is the part of your post I have a problem with:

but there should be someone there to check and ask the questions that need asking

Unless by “someone”, you mean “the audience”, no. Just no.

Who is this “someone”? How did they get the job of policing content for appropriate diversity? What are their own biases that might influence their objectivity? Must this person be a minority? Or perhaps a committee that’s fully representative of the population? Do we put hard rules in place, i.e. 13% of the population is black, so 13% of your characters must be black? Do we use the U.S. population as the benchmark?

That all sounds absurd, of course, but that’s what happens when you make this sort of thing official and place the responsibility on someone in a corporation to do it. Lots of rules and regulations and HR people.

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

One of my best friends growing up was a 50-year-old lesbian. It’s all good with me.

I really don’t think you have to say this in order to make your point. You sound like one of those white dudes who says “I have lots of black friends!”

I knew I’d get this response from someone; figures that it’s you. I don’t really care what you think I sound like.

moviefreakedmind said:

I started writing books and stories for myself, literally just for myself to read, mainly because I got tired of finding characters in other media un-relatable to me, even if that other media is really good and high quality. If you want diverse stories to be told, support artists that are telling those stories. Don’t go to the artists that aren’t.

Exactly. Or even better, write your own and put them out there. Digital distribution has made it much easier for smaller teams and even individuals to get their material in front of a wide audience.

DominicCobb said:

moviefreakedmind said:

DominicCobb said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Artists aren’t obligated to do anything. If it’s an obligation then it isn’t art.

They aren’t obligated, but many leave out diversity almost by accident or out of habit. I think we should be careful about forcing an artist to do something they don’t feel is right for their story, but there should be someone there to check and ask the questions that need asking. Does this character really need to be a white man? Is there a good reason why 90% of the speaker characters are dudes?

Again, it’s not a matter of forcing, it’s a matter of looking long and hard at the work and asking why it isn’t diverse. The truth is, most of the time, there isn’t a good reason.

I suspect the reason is that people write about what they know and most writers old and experienced enough to be writing big movies or TV shows probably don’t “know” diversity so they don’t naturally write about it. Since most writers are men, they write men more. That’s my assumption.

If it’s a story about being black for example, I’d get why a white writer might not want to go there. But if they’re skin color isn’t that important to their story, there’s not a great reason why not.

Because you might get an army of SJWs telling you that you don’t know how to write black characters and you should quit (or lose) your job over it.

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Artists aren’t obligated to do anything. If it’s an obligation then it isn’t art.

They aren’t obligated, but many leave out diversity almost by accident or out of habit. I think we should be careful about forcing an artist to do something they don’t feel is right for their story, but there should be someone there to check and ask the questions that need asking. Does this character really need to be a white man? Is there a good reason why 90% of the speaker characters are dudes?

Again, it’s not a matter of forcing, it’s a matter of looking long and hard at the work and asking why it isn’t diverse. The truth is, most of the time, there isn’t a good reason.

This is the part of your post I have a problem with:

but there should be someone there to check and ask the questions that need asking

Unless by “someone”, you mean “the audience”, no. Just no.

Who is this “someone”? How did they get the job of policing content for appropriate diversity? What are their own biases that might influence their objectivity? Must this person be a minority? Or perhaps a committee that’s fully representative of the population? Do we put hard rules in place, i.e. 13% of the population is black, so 13% of your characters must be black? Do we use the U.S. population as the benchmark?

That all sounds absurd, of course, but that’s what happens when you make this sort of thing official and place the responsibility on someone in a corporation to do it. Lots of rules and regulations and HR people.

I don’t know why it has to be extremely bureaucratic in that way. It could be anyone, an editor, another writer they trust, a friend, the audience, whoever. Again it’s not about forcing, it’s not about quotas. It’s about making sure things aren’t always completely white and male with no reason.

I’m all for seeking feedback, as long as changes aren’t forced on the artist. Placing it in the editor’s hands might be pushing it for that reason.