Religion — Page 111

I’ve got to say that it does sound a bit harsh to deny the opportunity of life to someone who might grow up in hard conditions. Is it better that they never lived or to give them a shot despite the chances of being miserable? Kind of sounds like all human life to me except everyone is along a different spectrum for the possibility of various struggles.

Then it evolves into a discussion of when a life becomes so miserable and of so much pain, if it would be moral to have prevented that person from ever living.

All really deep questions that I have one answer for… And that answer is that I have absolutely no answer.

I sometimes wish I’d never been born at all.

*guitar riff*

suspiciouscoffee said:

I sometimes wish I’d never been born at all.

*guitar riff*

cue sad yet epic Pink Floyd tune…

…

snooker said:

darthrush said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

I sometimes wish I’d never been born at all.

*guitar riff*

cue sad yet epic Pink Floyd tune…

Disgusting.

No, it’s okay. It’s pre-84 Floyd. Or it better be.

darthrush said:
I’ve got to say that it does sound a bit harsh to deny the opportunity of life to someone who might grow up in hard conditions. Is it better that they never lived or to give them a shot despite the chances of being miserable?

One could use that sort of logic to conclude that using birth control is immoral. After all, what if your parents had used birth control? Then you wouldn’t have had a chance at life.

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:
I’ve got to say that it does sound a bit harsh to deny the opportunity of life to someone who might grow up in hard conditions. Is it better that they never lived or to give them a shot despite the chances of being miserable?

One could use that sort of logic to conclude that using birth control is immoral. After all, what if your parents had used birth control? Then you wouldn’t have had a chance at life.

Good point.

I guess it really all comes back to the issue of when does a life truly begin. And to that, I do not know. Any time I define a point along the development of a human, I always feel unsure.

darthrush said:

I guess it really all comes back to the issue of when does a life truly begin.

Jay said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Dek Rollins said:

And those people should still get a shot at life. There are buttloads of actual successful people who started from literal crap.

I think you underestimate how miserable the average person is.

Most people — believing they are normal, reasonable, and typical — tend to assume they are representative of the majority and project their thoughts and feelings onto the majority, which is often incorrect.

I wouldn’t presume to tell someone with a shitty life that they’re better off not even having the opportunity to improve it.

Didn’t say I would either.

CatBus said:

darthrush said:

I guess it really all comes back to the issue of when does a life truly begin.

Lol

darthrush said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:
I’ve got to say that it does sound a bit harsh to deny the opportunity of life to someone who might grow up in hard conditions. Is it better that they never lived or to give them a shot despite the chances of being miserable?

One could use that sort of logic to conclude that using birth control is immoral. After all, what if your parents had used birth control? Then you wouldn’t have had a chance at life.

Good point.

I guess it really all comes back to the issue of when does a life truly begin. And to that, I do not know. Any time I define a point along the development of a human, I always feel unsure.

Right. This is why I prefer that laws on this follow scientific opinion rather than religious opinion.

CatBus said:

darthrush said:

I guess it really all comes back to the issue of when does a life truly begin.

Sweet!

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:
I’ve got to say that it does sound a bit harsh to deny the opportunity of life to someone who might grow up in hard conditions. Is it better that they never lived or to give them a shot despite the chances of being miserable?

One could use that sort of logic to conclude that using birth control is immoral. After all, what if your parents had used birth control? Then you wouldn’t have had a chance at life.

Good point.

I guess it really all comes back to the issue of when does a life truly begin. And to that, I do not know. Any time I define a point along the development of a human, I always feel unsure.

Right. This is why I prefer that laws on this follow scientific opinion rather than religious opinion.

Agreed.

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:
I’ve got to say that it does sound a bit harsh to deny the opportunity of life to someone who might grow up in hard conditions. Is it better that they never lived or to give them a shot despite the chances of being miserable?

One could use that sort of logic to conclude that using birth control is immoral. After all, what if your parents had used birth control? Then you wouldn’t have had a chance at life.

Good point.

I guess it really all comes back to the issue of when does a life truly begin. And to that, I do not know. Any time I define a point along the development of a human, I always feel unsure.

Right. This is why I prefer that laws on this follow scientific opinion rather than religious opinion.

And by science, doesn’t life begin at conception? That’s when the child starts growing anyway, which sounds pretty scientific to me. Note that I am not against abortion for religious purposes, but for moral reasons.

EDIT: Also note that I realize my opinions on morality are undoubtedly influenced by my religious beliefs.

Okay… coming back to the question Ash (and Frink) wanted me to answer about my opinion of Hell, and how it compares to the traditional view as fire and brimstone.

The truth is: I’m not sure exactly. I do have ideas, but not all of them solid. I do know (and by “know” I mean posit) that as Heaven is eternity in the presence of God, by contrast Hell is eternity apart from it. I am aware that there are personal accounts from people who had (near?) death experiences and came back with descriptions of what Hell is like.

For myself, I kind of figure that a description to us of Hell is similar to the description of the Holy city in Revelation in the sense of trying to describe the indescribable. In Revelation, John talks about the Holy city with descriptions like it having gates made of pearl and streets made of gold. It occurs to me that gold’s value comes from its scarcity, and that for it to be so abundant that the street is literally made from it then cheapens its value. Basically, he’s trying, in so many words, to say the city is indescribably, uncomprehendingly beautiful.

Similarly, in the case of Hell, the experience is indescribably terrible. Whether that comes from separation from God or literal physical torment, I’m not sure. But then, let me explore the meaning of the word “eternity.” God created time and space as it exists in our universe and on this dimensional plane. It occurs to me that time does not have to flow or exist in the same manner on different planes or different universes or whatever. And therefore, to say “eternity” may not mean “for all time”, but rather “is.” Like, if you take where you are at a single point in time, and in that point you are there, if you remove time from the universe, you just exist there in some concept of eternity that just means “is”.

So I don’t know, but I have concepts of what it might be like, none of it good. I don’t believe it means you cease to exist, because the Bible does not suggest that to be true. The Bible does use the word “destruction”, but that is not synonymous with annihilation.

Dek Rollins said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:
I’ve got to say that it does sound a bit harsh to deny the opportunity of life to someone who might grow up in hard conditions. Is it better that they never lived or to give them a shot despite the chances of being miserable?

One could use that sort of logic to conclude that using birth control is immoral. After all, what if your parents had used birth control? Then you wouldn’t have had a chance at life.

Good point.

I guess it really all comes back to the issue of when does a life truly begin. And to that, I do not know. Any time I define a point along the development of a human, I always feel unsure.

Right. This is why I prefer that laws on this follow scientific opinion rather than religious opinion.

And by science, doesn’t life begin at conception? That’s when the child starts growing anyway, which sounds pretty scientific to me.

“Life” begins long before conception. The unfertilized egg - heck even a red blood cell - is alive, but that doesn’t make it a person. Is it immoral to allow a blood cell to die? Is it immoral to get your hair cut because of the living hair cells that then are killed? The question isn’t whether it is “alive”, the question is at what point does a single fertilized cell become a human being.

Most religions have chosen to define that moment as the time of conception, but that is a wholly spiritual marker, since the only unique marker at that point is DNA - which is present in every cell of our body that we seem to be perfectly ok with when it dies (such as a blood cell or hair cell). In my opinion (and in the opinion of the courts), there are many other more reasonable points along the growth path that are less arbitrary, such as when the brain becomes active for the first time.

Also sperm cells are alive, and most of them die on the journey to the egg. And my wife says it is her understanding that up to half of fertilized eggs are miscarried for one reason or other, often because the egg simply did not implant, and without the mother even knowing.

Given that the discussion about abortion seems rather arbitary and complicated, my opinion is that it should be a matter between the mother, the father, the doctor, and God.

TV’s Frink said:

Or just the mother, the father, and the doctor! :p

I am saying that if she (or they) stand in judgment for it or to an extent are convicted about it, it should be between them and God. Not us.

TV’s Frink said:

I decided to add the :p to indicate I was joking/teasing.

You tease, but I was serious. That’s, in part, why I didn’t want to answer your question about Hell at the time. Because I wasn’t sure you weren’t just making noise. You yourself say that you don’t, and won’t, take this place seriously.

Based on my reading, most (near) death experiences are positive, dare I say heavenly. Of the few that are negative or “hellish,” some of those even describe being pulled from “hell” and brought into “heaven” after death, implying post-death repentance is possible. I don’t know if any of those are true, as I’ve not experienced them, but they’re nice additions to the buffet of food for thought.