logo Sign In

Religion — Page 95

Author
Time
Post link

Possessed said:

Fine. I “respectfully hold the opinion” that presenting your beliefs and opinions as absolute truth and fact is problematic. Feel better?

Do you hold this opinion absolutely?

K. Let’s have this ride.

Author
Time
Post link

moviefreakedmind said:

TV’s Frink said:

Stop making me defend Religion. I don’t like doing it, but you’re making a very silly comparison.

It isn’t that silly. Some people take their love of the Star Wars prequels very seriously and treat it almost like a religion. I find religion to often be extremely offensive, but I’m expected to treat it with kid gloves.

I think it’s because religion’s usually the main thing that motivates a person to get through life at the angle they’re going.

And more than that? It’s a relationship that gets built based on trust and hope and reasonable understanding of what seems to be and what seems to makes sense.

So cutting it up fine in front of a believer is sort of like walking in and telling them they sure picked a lousy spouse. I mean it’s a personal relationship that’s very meaningful. It’s basically the answer that seems most strong after a lifetime of getting to that point. So going in and treating it like nonsense without a care is really sort of raw rub.

K. Let’s have this ride.

Author
Time
Post link

I don’t like comparing religion and gods to real people.

The Person in Question

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

And everybody’s always worried about offending religious people, but a lot of religious beliefs are offensive to me. Generally speaking, no one cares about what offends me, and I’m not asking them to. I just don’t like the abitrary double standard.

And I’ve never once said that anyone on here was dumb or stupid or even wrong for what they believe. In fact, I called out Catbus’s cosmic space duck thing as being pretty insulting to theists. I have, however, been extremely critical of religious figures and idols and that is what supposedly makes people like me bigots.

The Person in Question

Author
Time
Post link

Trident said:

ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

To some degree, I can not answer some of those follow-up questions in a meaningful way, because
(…)
2) certain answers that readily come to me assume certain truths that people call into question. And I can not convince people of those truths.
(…)

True. Though, some people do present themselves as though their opinion is the correct one.
…and that probably also includes me.

When you use words like “truths” to describe your beliefs, is it difficult not to think that you present your opinion as the correct one.

It’d be a pretty odd belief if that wasn’t the case tho. I mean believing things are true is sort of why we believe in them 😉

Saying “I believe it is true” is not the same as “I know it is true, I’m 100% sure of that, it is a fact and there are evidences”.

Author
Time
Post link

ZigZig said:

Trident said:

ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

To some degree, I can not answer some of those follow-up questions in a meaningful way, because
(…)
2) certain answers that readily come to me assume certain truths that people call into question. And I can not convince people of those truths.
(…)

True. Though, some people do present themselves as though their opinion is the correct one.
…and that probably also includes me.

When you use words like “truths” to describe your beliefs, is it difficult not to think that you present your opinion as the correct one.

It’d be a pretty odd belief if that wasn’t the case tho. I mean believing things are true is sort of why we believe in them 😉

Saying “I believe it is true” is not the same as “I know it is true, I’m 100% sure of that, it is a fact and there are evidences”.

But there are evidences. They just aren’t reproducible in a controlled environment. The fact that you dispute the credibility of those evidences doesn’t make them not evidences.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

Author
Time
Post link

ZigZig said:

Trident said:

ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

To some degree, I can not answer some of those follow-up questions in a meaningful way, because
(…)
2) certain answers that readily come to me assume certain truths that people call into question. And I can not convince people of those truths.
(…)

True. Though, some people do present themselves as though their opinion is the correct one.
…and that probably also includes me.

When you use words like “truths” to describe your beliefs, is it difficult not to think that you present your opinion as the correct one.

It’d be a pretty odd belief if that wasn’t the case tho. I mean believing things are true is sort of why we believe in them 😉

Saying “I believe it is true” is not the same as “I know it is true, I’m 100% sure of that, it is a fact and there are evidences”.

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

ZigZig said:

ZigZig said:

Trident said:

ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

To some degree, I can not answer some of those follow-up questions in a meaningful way, because
(…)
2) certain answers that readily come to me assume certain truths that people call into question. And I can not convince people of those truths.
(…)

True. Though, some people do present themselves as though their opinion is the correct one.
…and that probably also includes me.

When you use words like “truths” to describe your beliefs, is it difficult not to think that you present your opinion as the correct one.

It’d be a pretty odd belief if that wasn’t the case tho. I mean believing things are true is sort of why we believe in them 😉

Saying “I believe it is true” is not the same as “I know it is true, I’m 100% sure of that, it is a fact and there are evidences”.

I think you are confusing “fact” with “truth.” When I believe something is true, it is a truth in which I believe. Yes, there are truths that I believe strongly enough in as to treat them as fact. But I can not prove them to be fact in the scientific way that facts, by definition, are proven.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

Author
Time
Post link

chyron8472 said:

ZigZig said:

ZigZig said:

Trident said:

ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

To some degree, I can not answer some of those follow-up questions in a meaningful way, because
(…)
2) certain answers that readily come to me assume certain truths that people call into question. And I can not convince people of those truths.
(…)

True. Though, some people do present themselves as though their opinion is the correct one.
…and that probably also includes me.

When you use words like “truths” to describe your beliefs, is it difficult not to think that you present your opinion as the correct one.

It’d be a pretty odd belief if that wasn’t the case tho. I mean believing things are true is sort of why we believe in them 😉

Saying “I believe it is true” is not the same as “I know it is true, I’m 100% sure of that, it is a fact and there are evidences”.

I think you are confusing “fact” with “truth.” When I believe something is true, it is a truth in which I believe. Yes, there are truths that I believe strongly enough in as to treat them as fact. But I can not prove them to be fact in the way that facts are proven.

Ok, so I am the one who is confusing fact and truth…

Author
Time
Post link

chyron8472 said:

ZigZig said:

Trident said:

ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

To some degree, I can not answer some of those follow-up questions in a meaningful way, because
(…)
2) certain answers that readily come to me assume certain truths that people call into question. And I can not convince people of those truths.
(…)

True. Though, some people do present themselves as though their opinion is the correct one.
…and that probably also includes me.

When you use words like “truths” to describe your beliefs, is it difficult not to think that you present your opinion as the correct one.

It’d be a pretty odd belief if that wasn’t the case tho. I mean believing things are true is sort of why we believe in them 😉

Saying “I believe it is true” is not the same as “I know it is true, I’m 100% sure of that, it is a fact and there are evidences”.

But there are evidences. They just aren’t reproducible in a controlled environment. The fact that you dispute the credibility of those evidences doesn’t make them not evidences.

if there was really any evidence, there would be 7 billion Christians … Could you name one of these “non-reproducible evidence”

Sorry Chyron, your faith is strong but your words are disrespectful and immature.

Author
Time
Post link

ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

ZigZig said:

ZigZig said:

Trident said:

ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

To some degree, I can not answer some of those follow-up questions in a meaningful way, because
(…)
2) certain answers that readily come to me assume certain truths that people call into question. And I can not convince people of those truths.
(…)

True. Though, some people do present themselves as though their opinion is the correct one.
…and that probably also includes me.

When you use words like “truths” to describe your beliefs, is it difficult not to think that you present your opinion as the correct one.

It’d be a pretty odd belief if that wasn’t the case tho. I mean believing things are true is sort of why we believe in them 😉

Saying “I believe it is true” is not the same as “I know it is true, I’m 100% sure of that, it is a fact and there are evidences”.

I think you are confusing “fact” with “truth.” When I believe something is true, it is a truth in which I believe. Yes, there are truths that I believe strongly enough in as to treat them as fact. But I can not prove them to be fact in the way that facts are proven.

Ok, so I am the one who is confusing fact and truth…

If you are asserting that I expect others to accept those truths as fact (as in, scientifically reproducible), then yes.

That is also different than for me to say that I treat certain truths as fact for my own self.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

ZigZig said:

Sorry Chyron, your faith is strong but your words are disrespectful and immature.

I’m disrespectful and immature?
Talking about Flying Spaghetti Monsters, et al., is not disrespectful and immature?

JEDIT: Also, please don’t make me define the word “evidence.” People use evidence in a court case to prove their argument, and that evidence is not portrayed as fact.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

Author
Time
Post link

ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

ZigZig said:

Trident said:

ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

To some degree, I can not answer some of those follow-up questions in a meaningful way, because
(…)
2) certain answers that readily come to me assume certain truths that people call into question. And I can not convince people of those truths.
(…)

True. Though, some people do present themselves as though their opinion is the correct one.
…and that probably also includes me.

When you use words like “truths” to describe your beliefs, is it difficult not to think that you present your opinion as the correct one.

It’d be a pretty odd belief if that wasn’t the case tho. I mean believing things are true is sort of why we believe in them 😉

Saying “I believe it is true” is not the same as “I know it is true, I’m 100% sure of that, it is a fact and there are evidences”.

But there are evidences. They just aren’t reproducible in a controlled environment. The fact that you dispute the credibility of those evidences doesn’t make them not evidences.

if there was really any evidence, there would be 7 billion Christians … Could you name one of these “non-reproducible evidence”

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

chyron8472 said:

ZigZig said:

Sorry Chyron, your faith is strong but your words are disrespectful and immature.

I’m disrespectful and immature?
Talking about Flying Spaghetti Monsters, et al., is not disrespectful and immature?

Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is an official and recognized religion. Please respect my religion.

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

ev·i·dence
ˈevədəns/
noun
noun: evidence

  1. the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

 

Testimony, for one things, is evidence. But we’ve already had that discussion.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

“Testimony” is not a word in your definition. It is not a fact neither an information indicating a belief is true.
And you still don’t answer to my question:

ZigZig said:

if there was really any evidence, there would be 7 billion Christians … Could you name one of these “non-reproducible evidence”

Author
Time
Post link

chyron8472 said:

ev·i·dence
ˈevədəns/
noun
noun: evidence

  1. the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

 

Testimony, for one things, is evidence. But we’ve already had that discussion.

He didn’t ask you three times what the fucking definition of the word evidence was, he asked you three times what evidence you have.

And your style of argument and presenting yourself is what makes all of us people who believe in God look ignorant, so thanks for that.

Author
Time
Post link

chyron8472 said:

ZigZig said:

Trident said:

ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

To some degree, I can not answer some of those follow-up questions in a meaningful way, because
(…)
2) certain answers that readily come to me assume certain truths that people call into question. And I can not convince people of those truths.
(…)

True. Though, some people do present themselves as though their opinion is the correct one.
…and that probably also includes me.

When you use words like “truths” to describe your beliefs, is it difficult not to think that you present your opinion as the correct one.

It’d be a pretty odd belief if that wasn’t the case tho. I mean believing things are true is sort of why we believe in them 😉

Saying “I believe it is true” is not the same as “I know it is true, I’m 100% sure of that, it is a fact and there are evidences”.

But there are evidences. They just aren’t reproducible in a controlled environment. The fact that you dispute the credibility of those evidences doesn’t make them not evidences.

To Zig’s point, what about all the other non-Christian religions who also have their evidences?

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

Possessed said:

chyron8472 said:

ev·i·dence
ˈevədəns/
noun
noun: evidence

  1. the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

 

Testimony, for one things, is evidence. But we’ve already had that discussion.

He didn’t ask you three times what the fucking definition of the word evidence was, he asked you three times what evidence you have.

And your style of argument and presenting yourself is what makes all of us people who believe in God look ignorant, so thanks for that.

I agree 100% with you.

By the way, believing in God is certainly not a question of evidence, but a question of faith. These are not my words, it is Jesus who tells it to Thomas (John 20: 24-29).

And that is precisely the beauty of the whole mystery of faith: believing without having seen.
As I understand the Gospels (John 20: 24-29), invoking the existence of evidences to justify his faith is totally contrary to the spirit of what Jesus teaches …

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

The conversation though was about that there is no evidence to support that God exists or that He cares. My point was that there is, but such evidence is not accepted or found credible here.

My personal relationship with God is not founded on the need for evidence, as apparently was with Thomas.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

Author
Time
Post link

But they want to know what your evidence is, which you haven’t told them.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

Author
Time
Post link

I will say that my own evidence is physical healing, as well as some very specific spiritual moments that are hard to describe.

Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.

Author
Time
Post link

chyron8472 said:

The conversation though was about that there is no evidence to support that God exists or that He cares. >
Well, the whole conversation about “evidence” comes from the fact that you, and only you, have used the word “evidence”. You, and only you, assert here that God’s existence is certain because of evidences.

So the conversation was NOT about that there is NO evidence to support God’s existence (as you wrote in your latest post), but about that there IS evidence to support God’s existence. Just because that is YOUR assertion. And everybody wants to know what are those evidences.

My point is that invoking evidences about God’s existence is the worst angle of discussion. This whole thread is an evidence of my point…