logo Sign In

Religion — Page 89

Author
Time
 (Edited)

moviefreakedmind said:

I never said anything was fact.

You said that I expect people to take my testimony as objective fact:

moviefreakedmind said:

I’d appreciate not being expected to think of your personal experiences as objective fact for everyone to take seriously.

I don’t expect that. All I expect is respect for my belief; I don’t require you to find it credible.

If you believed that you saw ghosts, I would not think you cracked by default.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I have trouble respecting your belief that you absolutely beyond a doubt 100% know that God exists, because I don’t respect that you think there’s zero chance you could be mistaken.

I think you could be right, despite the fact that I think you’re probably wrong, because I’m not so vain that I don’t think I could be wrong.

Author
Time

People believe many things that aren’t proven, even in science. For example, much of computer science is based on the belief that P is not equal to NP, even though that hasn’t been proven. All of math and science includes certain assumptions that must be made in order to make progress. So saying that it is being overly-critical to require “proof in a lab” to believe in God (or ghosts) is a red herring. People don’t require that level of proof to believe things.

However, testimony about ghosts is un-compelling – not because it isn’t “proven in a lab”, but because there is no clear tangible evidence to corroborate that testimony. Also, testimony about ghosts is wildly inconsistent.

In my opinion, testimony about god is also uncompelling for the same reasons. It makes zero sense to me that a god who wishes to be revered would leave no clear and tangible evidence of his existence. It also makes no sense that there would be over 4000 religions in the world, and god expects us to believe the testimony from one of them while discounting the testimony from the other 3999 – especially when most people in the world are guaranteed to not have even been exposed to that one or its adherents’ testimony.

Further, using the concept of “faith” to circumvent the above reasoning is something that I find disturbing. Being asked to believe something so important, specifically in the absence of evidence or logical support, is far more easily explained by it being a historical mechanism for people to control other people. And for that, there is plenty of corroborating evidence.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

Author
Time

TV’s Frink said:

I have trouble respecting your belief that you absolutely beyond a doubt 100% know that God exists, because I don’t respect that you think there’s zero chance you could be mistaken.

That’s your prerogative.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

Author
Time

JEDITED in my last post:

TV’s Frink said:

I think you could be right, despite the fact that I think you’re probably wrong, because I’m not so vain that I don’t think I could be wrong.

But yeah, it’s my perogative. Just like it’s yours to insist you’re right. But I don’t see why I should be asked to respect the viewpoint that you know better than I do.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

TV’s Frink said:

But I don’t see why I should be asked to respect the viewpoint that you know better than I do.

I ask that you respect me.

I do not ask that you believe my viewpoint. But I do assert certain things based on that viewpoint.

I believe God exists and that he desires a relationship, and I assert that that relationship is too important for overbearing parents to get in the way.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

Author
Time

Believe me, my respect or non-respect for you (see that how you like) has nothing to do with your insistence that God exists. You’re far from alone on that front.

Author
Time

I appreciate civility and decency, but respect is earned never given. A lot of people conflate respect with civility and decency.

The Person in Question

Author
Time

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

It also makes no sense that there would be over 4000 religions in the world, and god expects us to believe the testimony from one of them while discounting the testimony from the other 3999 – especially when most people in the world are guaranteed to not have even been exposed to that one or its adherents’ testimony.

It’s also frustrating because the testimony ultimately boils down to “I believe in God because he’s been good to me before.” God, if he exists, hasn’t been good to a lot of people so why should I appreciate him because he singled out someone to bring joy and happiness to?

The Person in Question

Author
Time
 (Edited)

TV’s Frink said:

Believe me, my respect or non-respect for you (see that how you like) has nothing to do with your insistence that God exists. You’re far from alone on that front.

Okay. But to be clear, I do not say that I know better than you (at least no more than you might say you know better than me). I do make assertions based on my beliefs, and I behave as though those beliefs are irrefutable because, to me, they are. I myself do not and will not refute them.

I do not say my position is superior.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

moviefreakedmind said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

It also makes no sense that there would be over 4000 religions in the world, and god expects us to believe the testimony from one of them while discounting the testimony from the other 3999 – especially when most people in the world are guaranteed to not have even been exposed to that one or its adherents’ testimony.

the testimony ultimately boils down to “I believe in God because he’s been good to me before.”

Actually, no. At least not for me.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

Author
Time

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

It also makes no sense that there would be over 4000 religions in the world, and god expects us to believe the testimony from one of them while discounting the testimony from the other 3999 – especially when most people in the world are guaranteed to not have even been exposed to that one or its adherents’ testimony.

the testimony ultimately boils down to “I believe in God because he’s been good to me before.”

Actually, no. At least not for me.

Do you care to elaborate? Also, if you believe that faith in God is necessary for admittance into heaven, then him revealing himself to you does ultimately boil down to “he’s been good to me before,” at least a little bit.

The Person in Question

Author
Time
 (Edited)

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

It also makes no sense that there would be over 4000 religions in the world, and god expects us to believe the testimony from one of them while discounting the testimony from the other 3999 – especially when most people in the world are guaranteed to not have even been exposed to that one or its adherents’ testimony.

the testimony ultimately boils down to “I believe in God because he’s been good to me before.”

Actually, no. At least not for me.

Do you care to elaborate?

I’m not sure giving my testimony here would be helpful. It is not my intent to give it only to be shot down. I get the feeling that those present do not find me credible and will not find me credible, and that no amount of testimony on my part will increase that credibility. So I’m not sure it will do any good on my part to elaborate.

In short, I’m not sure you guys would believe me anyway.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

Author
Time

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Believe me, my respect or non-respect for you (see that how you like) has nothing to do with your insistence that God exists. You’re far from alone on that front.

Okay. But to be clear, I do not say that I know better than you (at least no more than you might say you know better than me). I do make assertions based on my beliefs, and I behave as though those beliefs are irrefutable because, to me, they are. I myself do not and will not refute them.

I do not say my position is superior.

You insist God exists, how can you possibly at the same time insist you don’t say your position is superior?

Author
Time

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

It also makes no sense that there would be over 4000 religions in the world, and god expects us to believe the testimony from one of them while discounting the testimony from the other 3999 – especially when most people in the world are guaranteed to not have even been exposed to that one or its adherents’ testimony.

the testimony ultimately boils down to “I believe in God because he’s been good to me before.”

Actually, no. At least not for me.

Do you care to elaborate?

I’m not sure giving my testimony here would be helpful. It is not my intent to give it only to be shot down. I get the feeling that those present do not find me credible and will not find me credible, and that no amount of testimony on my part will increase that credibility. So I’m not sure it will do any good on my part to elaborate.

In short, I’m not sure you guys would believe me anyway.

I would think it’s possible you’re right, but that there’s a better chance you’re wrong.

Author
Time

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

It also makes no sense that there would be over 4000 religions in the world, and god expects us to believe the testimony from one of them while discounting the testimony from the other 3999 – especially when most people in the world are guaranteed to not have even been exposed to that one or its adherents’ testimony.

the testimony ultimately boils down to “I believe in God because he’s been good to me before.”

Actually, no. At least not for me.

Do you care to elaborate?

I’m not sure giving my testimony here would be helpful. It is not my intent to give it only to be shot down. I get the feeling that those present do not find me credible and will not find me credible, and that no amount of testimony on my part will increase that credibility. So I’m not sure it will do any good on my part to elaborate.

In short, I’m not sure you guys would believe me anyway.

I’m not really interesting in shooting anything down, I’m curious because you shot me down and said that your experienced transcended merely a beneficial act of God.

The Person in Question

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Dear Chyron8472,

I have trouble reconciling these two angles of your speech :

  1. Sometimes, you say that your opinion is not irrefutable :

chyron8472 said:

Okay. But to be clear, I do not say that I know better than you (at least no more than you might say you know better than me).
I do not say my position is superior.

chyron8472 said:

You said that I expect people to take my testimony as objective fact:

moviefreakedmind said:

I’d appreciate not being expected to think of your personal experiences as objective fact for everyone to take seriously.

I don’t expect that.


  1. But most of the time, you say that your opinion is irrefutable :

chyron8472 said:

That would be healthy if there was no God, but there is.

chyron8472 said:

Yes there is. I’ve had personal experiences that prove it beyond the shadow of the remotest possible doubt.

chyron8472 said:

There is evidence.

chyron8472 said:

God literally created time and space. There was no “beginning” before the beginning because before the beginning there was no time. As our universe expands, so does the boundaries of the space-time continuum. God created it. Therefore, he does not have to exist within it.

IMHO, talking about God and his faith requires enormous humility, and your way of asserting certain things is sorely lacking of humility. It deserves your message, and it seems to me that you do not understand that your “opponents” are not opposed to the idea of God, but to your way of imposing your point of view without nuances.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

ZigZig said:

it seems to me that you do not understand that your “opponents” are not opposed to the idea of God,

It seems to me that they are opposed to the idea of a God who desires relationship with us, if even exists at all.

but to the way you have to impose your way of thinking without nuances.

Nuance is difficult in a text-only setting. MFM said I convey my position as though it’s objective fact. I’m not trying to convert anybody here, but I am devout and admittedly generally opinionated. If I come off as though my position is fact it is because, in the case of God, I treat it as fact for my own self. I admittedly am stubbornly unwilling to entertain the notion that God does not exist or that He cares about me. Whether that’s a quality or a failing is matter of debate I suppose, but it is who I am. Frink kind of called me out for being zero percent uncertain, but I don’t know what to say about that other than I choose to not be uncertain. I hold steadfast to my belief.

Frink also says my position, that the Christian God exists, suggests itself as superior given the underlying consequence for believing otherwise—but I do get the feeling that he himself feels his position is superior in that I’m very likely gullible, foolish, and/or wasting my time focusing on my beliefs since he holds them to be false. That is, I think both positions think themselves superior in their own way.

But I do not look down my nose at him, or any of you, for not believing what I do.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

Author
Time

Chyron, your presupposition, and refusal to elaborate on said presupposition, that God’s existence is completely evident and unquestionable can be frustrating. Your strong faith is quite admirable, but your behavior in this thread today is baffling.

.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Since God dwells within everyone*, everyone has a relationship with God, regardless of whether they’re aware of it or not, whether they believe or disbelieve.

That’s my 2¢ opinion, anyway.

*Everyone born with a conscience, anyway.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

suspiciouscoffee said:

Chyron, your presupposition, and refusal to elaborate on said presupposition, that God’s existence is completely evident and unquestionable can be frustrating. Your strong faith is quite admirable, but your behavior in this thread today is baffling.

It is evident to me, though. I’m already bad enough at communicating myself in general, and I really have no feeling that I will change anyone’s mind here about God. I can talk about Him. And when I talk about Him, I take His existence and certain aspects of His character as a given. But I don’t see how one can move into a deeper conversation if one is not able to maintain basic assumptions.

I also haven’t thought all of my testimony through in a manner that makes sense written down. I’ve never actually given it before. But like I said, I’m not sure it’s worth the effort to do so here.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.