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Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo — Page 622

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He didn’t stand for the Korean team entering the stadium.

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oh.

Yeah, he should have stood.

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Warbler said:

oh.

Yeah, he should have stood.

ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING HIS SHITBAG MOVE REGARDING BLACK FOOTBALL PLAYERS WHO DIDN’T STAND

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TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

oh.

Yeah, he should have stood.

ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING HIS SHITBAG MOVE REGARDING BLACK FOOTBALL PLAYERS WHO DIDN’T STAND

That was for the anthem, not for players coming in. But I get the point. I agree he should have stood, especially when you do what he did in regards to the players not standing for the anthem.

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The North Korean athletes represent a brutal dictatorship and the brutal dictator’s sister, who plays a significant role in the government, is there behind the Pences. Standing on ceremony holds no positive value and wouldn’t be taken as a non-event. Not standing sends a direct message that we’re not going to make believe North Korea really belongs to the civilized world. The athletes from both Koreas came out together but that doesn’t change anything. A good cop/bad cop routine has value. That routine has contributed to the Koreas showing some friendliness. I don’t see a valid comparison with athletes refusing to stand for the pledge, even if they do it for a noble reason.

The blue elephant in the room.

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A united Korea at the Olympics is just as symbolic as a flag. Intentions aside, gestures of peace shouldn’t be scoffed at in such a way. Pence is pathetic.

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An empty symbol if North Korea doesn’t radically change. There’s no peace without that change. There is a chasm of difference between the anthem protest and this protest of North Korea.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Unless the US is going to try and overthrow the government of NK entirely, there’s no point in making Kim feel less safe. The whole reason they have nukes is because they have absolutely no other options to protect themselves from being destroyed by their better armed and equipped neighbors. They can’t win economically or with conventional military strength. Their two options are:

  1. Diplomacy
  2. Nuclear deterrent

The US has made clear that we’re not interested in diplomacy, so the only thing they can do is build nukes.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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Mrebo said:

An empty symbol if North Korea doesn’t radically change. There’s no peace without that change.

No doubt, but not standing implies that he thinks peace is out of the question.

There is a chasm of difference between the anthem protest and this protest of North Korea.

You’re absolutely right, Pence is a visiting dignitary who remained seated and refused to cheer for the team of athletes from the host country of games that promote international unity and world peace. Meanwhile, the NFL players are US citizens who are exercising their first amendment rights to protest institutional injustices in their home country by respectfully kneeling for a flag.

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A good (and absolutely utopical) strategy would be to say that we’re building more and more nukes but under the covers slowly destroy the entire arsenal instead.

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Not standing does not mean peace is out of the question. The only lacking peace is from the North Korean government. There is no valid excuse for what the Kim regime does. Maybe only Pence can inspire apologetics on behalf of North Korea. Not sure what that says.

If American athletes who kneel when the Anthem plays were to stand for the North Koreans, I likewise wouldn’t call that hypocrisy. These are obviously different situations. If you want to hate Pence and think he’s totally misguided in his perception of the Anthem protests, fine.

Here, Pence is refusing to stand in mock respect of a horrible country. The idea that if only we are solicitous toward the country by standing at the Olympics they will stop building nuclear weapons and brutalizing its people is absurd. The idea is to force North Korea to enter real diplomatic negotiations, something that appears impossible as the government is constituted and the measures it takes to control its population.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Isn’t it a combined NK/SK team though? You can’t diss one without dissing the other.

Or maybe we should have boycotted the Olympics like Carter did for the 1980 Moscow Summer games. Oh wait, there’s too much money at stake these days for that to ever happen again! 😉

Where were you in '77?

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Again, it’s a symbolic gesture. And I think sitting sends the wrong message and is disrespectful to South Korea.

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I wager this was discussed with South Korea and State Department officials with knowledge of Korean affairs and culture weighed in on the appropriate action to take and how the message would be understood. There’s a lot going on that we’re not privy to.

There’s always this divide between thinking (1) if we’re nice the bad guys will change and (2) the bad guys will change if we hold a hard line and proceed fearlessly. I think it’s great we’re trying option 2. When we think of success in combating the USSR and bringing about peace with Russia (until the 2016 election), we think of the hard lines and provocative policies taken by presidents like Kennedy and Reagan. There were major risks in what they pursued but they were successful. Hate to think where the world would be today had we been solicitous. Instead of a blockade or an arms race, we have Pence sitting in a chair. I’m all for that kind of pressure.

The blue elephant in the room.

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You didn’t have JFK or Reagan calling Soviet leaders childish and silly names on twitter back then though.

Where were you in '77?

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It’s not being nice and hoping the bad guys change. It’s a symbolic gesture of peace and we’re sticking our noses up to it. It just feels needlessly antagonistic without any real benefit, comparing this to the strategies of former presidents with the USSR emphasizes how insignificant a tactic it is. The tension between our countries is bad enough with this administration, I don’t trust that if they play mean like this that I won’t some day be incinerated in my sleep by a nuclear blast.

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Mrebo said:

I wager this was discussed with South Korea and State Department officials with knowledge of Korean affairs and culture weighed in on the appropriate action to take and how the message would be understood. There’s a lot going on that we’re not privy to.

Hahahaha.

Apparently you’ve paid no attention to the first year of this administration.

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Also the fact that Trump released the misleading Nunes memo and buried the Democratic memo (which was unanimously voted on to be released by the House Intelligence Committee) is both disgusting and completely expected.

One thing I’m really sick of are the stupid reports of things like “a senior official says that Trump definitely wants to release the memo if he’s able to” which is always complete bullshit. Every time.

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NeverarGreat said:

The US has made clear that we’re not interested in diplomacy [with NK]

Since when? I was under the impression it was the reverse, and that Kim’s interest in nuclear weapons is akin to what Saddam’s interest was in them. That is, he just wants to make himself look and feel powerful because, as dictators usually are, he is incredibly insecure and paranoid about looking weak.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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chyron8472 said:

NeverarGreat said:

The US has made clear that we’re not interested in diplomacy [with NK]

Since when? I was under the impression it was the reverse, and that Kim’s interest in nuclear weapons is akin to what Saddam’s interest was in them. That is, he just wants to make himself look and feel powerful because, as dictators usually are, he is incredibly insecure and paranoid about looking weak.

No. He’s not a madman. He’s a rational actor acting in logical ways that align with his interests. Kim wants to stay in power, and ultimately, have a unified Korea under his control. He’s building nuclear weapons because without them he could fold like a deck of cards, like what happened in Iraq. There’s a logic behind the madness.

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chyron8472 said:

NeverarGreat said:

The US has made clear that we’re not interested in diplomacy [with NK]

Since when?

since Trump referred to the N. Korea leader as Rocketman. Belittling, and insulting the leader of the opposing nation and threatening nuclear war with him as Trump has done is not what I call diplomacy.

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Meanwhile, the EU needs to figure out a way to simply expel Poland with or without Hungary’s support. Whether that’s dissolving the EU and immediately re-forming something identical to the EU but without Poland (and Hungary) or not, Poland is now the sort of country the EU would bend over backwards to avoid having as a member state, and it’s going to get worse as long as the EU fails to deal with it. Yes, the EU charter is designed to make handling this sort of thing difficult (especially when two members are bad actors at the same time). Time to start thinking difficult.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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CatBus said:

Meanwhile, the EU needs to figure out a way to simply expel Poland with or without Hungary’s support. Whether that’s dissolving the EU and immediately re-forming something identical to the EU but without Poland (and Hungary) or not, Poland is now the sort of country the EU would bend over backwards to avoid having as a member state, and it’s going to get worse as long as the EU fails to deal with it. Yes, the EU charter is designed to make handling this sort of thing difficult (especially when two members are bad actors at the same time). Time to start thinking difficult.

Just how responsible is Poland for the holocaust? I mean they were a conquered country during WWII and were under Nazi control, weren’t they?

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Warbler said:

CatBus said:

Meanwhile, the EU needs to figure out a way to simply expel Poland with or without Hungary’s support. Whether that’s dissolving the EU and immediately re-forming something identical to the EU but without Poland (and Hungary) or not, Poland is now the sort of country the EU would bend over backwards to avoid having as a member state, and it’s going to get worse as long as the EU fails to deal with it. Yes, the EU charter is designed to make handling this sort of thing difficult (especially when two members are bad actors at the same time). Time to start thinking difficult.

Just how responsible is Poland for the holocaust? I mean they were a conquered country during WWII and were under Nazi control, weren’t they?

For the portion that took place within their borders, the most apt word for their involvement is “complicit”. Virulent anti-Semitism was endemic in Poland without any prompting from the Germans, and apparently it still is.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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It’s insane to overlook how affected Poland was by the holocaust in negative ways. However, it’s just as insane to overlook the sins that the Polish committed during the holocaust, commanded by nazi Germans or not. Heck, even though I haven’t watched Schindler’s List in a while, I’m pretty sure there’s even a scene with Polish people saying “goodbye jews! Get out” and stuff like that when the Jews were being relocated. Not the best source for credibility either, but still.