The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 151

Matt.F said:

“There’s no doubt the First Order control the galaxy.”

Dre, that’s not what we see in the two movies thus far. The First Order seem to have a serious Arsenal but we don’t ever see any garrisons or colonial troops on any planets like we did so frequently with the Empire.

In fact the FO don’t have a presence on any of the planets we see in the ST, they turn up and attack like raiders then depart.

It’s what RJ put into the crawl and dialogue. If he didn’t want the viewer to have the impression, that the FO is an unstoppable force, he wouldn’t have put it in.

Dre, you state “there is no doubt the First Order control the galaxy.”

I, and others claim that there is ‘some’ doubt!

The second sentence of the crawl says ‘now deploy’ meaning present to the events of TLJ. Plus barely any time has passed since the destruction of the Hosnian system.

But most pertinently we don’t see the FO controlling anything. They don’t have a presence on any planet. The Empire had troops stationed on a total backwater like Tatooine but the FO aren’t on any of the planets we see, so yes there is ‘some doubt’ over your “total control of the galaxy” claim.

Mrebo said:

I’m old enough to remember it being cool to say ROTJ was bad because DS2 was a rehash. Also it was bad because Han Solo supposedly had poor characterization and should have died. And Ewoks were poor Wookiee cousins included for unfortunate humorous and juvenile appeal. Similar and more extensive objections made now are considered offensive. I don’t understand that.

All of those are valid complaints about ROTJ (well maybe other than Han not dying). But I still enjoy ROTJ, flawed though it may be in some ways.

TFA was somewhat rehashy but I still enjoyed it a lot.

TLJ? Eh, I don’t buy the rehash argument. But even if I did, I’d still enjoy it. See Awakens, The Force.

A bit far?

DrDre said:

Matt.F said:

“There’s no doubt the First Order control the galaxy.”

Dre, that’s not what we see in the two movies thus far. The First Order seem to have a serious Arsenal but we don’t ever see any garrisons or colonial troops on any planets like we did so frequently with the Empire.

In fact the FO don’t have a presence on any of the planets we see in the ST, they turn up and attack like raiders then depart.

It’s what RJ put into the crawl and dialogue. If he didn’t want the viewer to have the impression, that the FO is an unstoppable force, he wouldn’t have put it in.

Episode VIII
The Last Jedi

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deployes his merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

It opens with the worst, the shocker. The First Order Reigns. But from the rest of the crawl, this is technically inaccurate because they don’t yet reign over anything new. Troops have been sent out, but nothing conquered yet. While the second paragraph goes on to say that Leia and the Resistance stand against the rising tyranny. And what are they waiting for? Luke to come and restore a spark of hope to the fight. The movie goes on to reveal that Leia has friends and allies who could save them, but don’t. It is not implied that they have been crushed, but that that have chosen not to respond and the first paragraph of the crawl already provided the reason. So there is plenty of room to doubt that the First Order controls anything more now than they did at the opening of TFA. They have launched the attack fleets, but not yet done anything. Wiping out the resistance and the hero of the old Rebel Alliance seems to be their first priority. They know what a danger Leia can be and she slips through their fingers thanks to Luke and Rey. The OT crawls presented the Empire as an unstoppable force and look what they did - they stopped them.

Hardcore Legend said:

chyron8472 said:

Collipso said:

That’s just, from my point of view, Rian Johnson doing whatever he can to destroy everything that’s within his reach simply because he can, to prove some sort of point to someone.

Seriously?

That’s going a bit far.

It didn’t seem like he was destroying things just because he could (to me, at least). It did seem like he was continuing or building importance of things only to make them unimportant for some shock value.

Well, I think he did that to everything he could without making 100% of the audience being really bothered by the direction and twists of the movie. (Only 40-30% was, I think. Maybe less)

ExNihilo said:

This thread is sanity with a twist.

Hahaha

Mrebo said:

I’m old enough to remember it being cool to say ROTJ was bad because DS2 was a rehash. Also it was bad because Han Solo supposedly had poor characterization and should have died. And Ewoks were poor Wookiee cousins included for unfortunate humorous and juvenile appeal. Similar and more extensive objections made now are considered offensive. I don’t understand that.

Seeing the same visuals and story beats so deliberately performed takes away from a feeling that this is an authentic world. Superficial similarities are inevitable. We can talk about the Hero’s Journey or whatever but of course stories are going to have some manner of similarities. Those seemingly coincidental similarities are not the focus. If one likes that we are seeing the same story beats and the same visuals (with twists), that’s a personal choice. But it is pretty obvious where OT is being repurposed in a fairly methodical way and that won’t feel natural to many viewers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6G_dNCSXfo

As the time passes I’m getting more trouble with this movie; It’s not clear to me up to which point RJ is saying screw you to the OT, or if he is actually saying fuck you to JJ Abrams who left him in this starting position to begin with, a Luke Skywalker that’s not the Luke Skywalker we know from the OT.

Despite his journey in TLJ Luke ends up looking at the horizon and being an idealist.

Surely Luke could have come out of hiding and conducted the war against his nephew, probably it is even within his range of power and knowledge to totally destroy him, kill him. Now think if Luke Skywalker from the OT, the one that couldn’t kill and forgave his beating father would be capable of killing a child of his own blood just because of the moral imperative of galactic politics. To have him do that would be out of character. As it might be out of character to have him go into hiding in the first place, but that wasn’t RJ’s fault at all. Even more, TLJ up to some point fixes the problems of TFA by leaving us in a similar situation to where the OT started: an orphan and a now plainly evil-beyond-redemption villain. By giving us this Luke, he allowed Luke from the OT to still be up to the very end of his life. By dying looking to the horizon, he’s still the same of ESB, who says fuck you to hic et nunc Yoda, and by doing so, to the old Jedi Order going after his friends. And he does again in TLJ. And by setting a situation where it’s Luke who saves the day, it even comes against the very message of the most part of the movie, which is that heroes don’t exist. They do.

Yes, the visual beats that repeat themselves are a trouble and are personally to me the evidence of all this being played, as in a game of mind, on purpose by the writer, in micro and macro scales, as the scene with the iron “landing” over the wardrobe of the first order, he has to make the best he can to answer questions and situations that weren’t his to begin with, and that were made by fan-oriented-marketing strategies that stamp all over VII that now may hopefully be vanquished:

why did Luke go into hiding? (just because it would be cool to rise Luke to the ultimate Jedi Master and make him unaccessible, it would be cool to make him the mcguffin of VII)

why did Kylo had to be a fan of Star Wars (because it would be cool to have another villain with a helmet. Johnson voices Snoke -because being that TFA is a commentary on the fans (and Lucas warned it, they made something for the fans) its continuation couldn’t be less than a commentary on that commentary in order to let the thing breathe again): Take that ridicoulous helmet off.

Why did Kylo had to be a complex, layered, gray bad guy? because it would be cool and it would sell (literally) to have a layered, relatable vilain: Vader proved and widened the notion of antihero as a figure of admiration.

What can you do to solve those starting points without flattening the most beloved character of the saga into a person responsible of killing a stupid boy? Strangely, ironically and due to how those three aspects are defined linked, make him capable and of killing a boy. But ruminate of where the movie starts and where it ends.

As a writer, in order to preserve the essence of Luke, he had to change him to somehow justify an unjustifiable writing decission. And in doing so he closes another counterdiction in the movie, which makes it richer. Once F. Scott Fitzgerald said a mind of first class is that one that can enclose two opposite ideas at the same time.

By leaving, he can come back.
By refusing Yoda’s teachings in ESB, he becomes a Jedi
By refusing to be a Jedi, he ends up being the Last of them
By being the Last One, he seeds the future.
By meditating and looking within, he reaches beyond Ach-To, or the opposite
By reaching the exterior world, he reaches inner peace.
By coming back to life, he dies.
By dying, he ascends into the Force and lives forever.

Having Luke be in two places simultaneously is not only stating the most powerful force trick we’ve seen (and hope no one undermines this achievment in new installments of the saga makin it a random power) but as well it is the visual statement of the misterical duplicity of some human being’s destiny and the very counterdiction TLJ, and Luke Skywalker is in this level.

In this sense, and only in this POV, kudos to Johnson for what he has crafted after TFA.

Collipso said:

Hardcore Legend said:

chyron8472 said:

Collipso said:

That’s just, from my point of view, Rian Johnson doing whatever he can to destroy everything that’s within his reach simply because he can, to prove some sort of point to someone.

Seriously?

That’s going a bit far.

It didn’t seem like he was destroying things just because he could (to me, at least). It did seem like he was continuing or building importance of things only to make them unimportant for some shock value.

Well, I think he did that to everything he could without making 100% of the audience being really bothered by the direction and twists of the movie. (Only 40-30% was, I think. Maybe less)

See, I didn’t see it that way. This is the middle act of a three act play. Same as the OT. In act 2, everything goes south. And while I think the majority of things went wrong in this film for our heroes, none of it was for shock value, none of it was gratuitous, none of it was ultimately unimportant. Finn and Rose did what any good hero would do, try and find a way out of the predicament. The success or failure of what they tried is secondary to the importance of character development. Finn’s character develops hugely during his mission. The mission fails, but lessons are learned. Poe similarly tries to find a way out of the predicament and fails. Failure is the hallmark of the 2nd act. Look at TESB. Yes, the rebels escape and regroup, but Han and Leia have a running chase that ultimately ends in Han being turned over the the Boba Fett and Liea escaping on the Falcon. It is a running series of failures until the final escape and rescue of Luke. Rey tries to get Luke to come back, but fails. At least initially. She gets some lessons out of him, a very important one among them, but ultimately she is beyond the level of most students and embarks on a self-study program with the ancient texts. Leia and Luke act as mentors, shepherding Poe and Rey into their roles. Luke does so unwittingly until Yoda shows up to let him in on the secret. The movie doesn’t take the obvious route if you were expecting success, but the 2nd act is about failure and that is what this movie is full of. The pay-off will be in the third act, like it was with the OT. In a world where there is only Star Wars and TESB, TESB isn’t a very satisfying story. But the final act is where he payoff is. RJ built a very good 2nd act and now we have to hope the final act can match it.

Mithrandir said:

Mrebo said:

I’m old enough to remember it being cool to say ROTJ was bad because DS2 was a rehash. Also it was bad because Han Solo supposedly had poor characterization and should have died. And Ewoks were poor Wookiee cousins included for unfortunate humorous and juvenile appeal. Similar and more extensive objections made now are considered offensive. I don’t understand that.

Seeing the same visuals and story beats so deliberately performed takes away from a feeling that this is an authentic world. Superficial similarities are inevitable. We can talk about the Hero’s Journey or whatever but of course stories are going to have some manner of similarities. Those seemingly coincidental similarities are not the focus. If one likes that we are seeing the same story beats and the same visuals (with twists), that’s a personal choice. But it is pretty obvious where OT is being repurposed in a fairly methodical way and that won’t feel natural to many viewers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6G_dNCSXfo

As the time passes I’m getting more trouble with this movie; It’s not clear to me up to which point RJ is saying screw you to the OT, or if he is actually saying fuck you to JJ Abrams who left him in this starting position to begin with, a Luke Skywalker that’s not the Luke Skywalker we know from the OT.

Despite his journey in TLJ Luke ends up looking at the horizon and being an idealist.

Surely Luke could have come out of hiding and conducted the war against his nephew, probably it is even within his range of power and knowledge to totally destroy him, kill him. Now think if Luke Skywalker from the OT, the one that couldn’t kill and forgave his beating father would be capable of killing a child of his own blood just because of the moral imperative of galactic politics. To have him do that would be out of character. As it might be out of character to have him go into hiding in the first place, but that wasn’t RJ’s fault at all. Even more, TLJ up to some point fixes the problems of TFA by leaving us in a similar situation to where the OT started: an orphan and a now plainly evil-beyond-redemption villain. By giving us this Luke, he allowed Luke from the OT to still be up to the very end of his life. By dying looking to the horizon, he’s still the same of ESB, who says fuck you to hic et nunc Yoda, and by doing so, to the old Jedi Order going after his friends. And he does again in TLJ. And by setting a situation where it’s Luke who saves the day, it even comes against the very message of the most part of the movie, which is that heroes don’t exist. They do.

Yes, the visual beats that repeat themselves are a trouble and are personally to me the evidence of all this being played, as in a game of mind, on purpose by the writer, in micro and macro scales, as the scene with the iron “landing” over the wardrobe of the first order, he has to make the best he can to answer questions and situations that weren’t his to begin with, and that were made by fan-oriented-marketing strategies that stamp all over VII that now may hopefully be vanquished:

why did Luke go into hiding? (just because it would be cool to rise Luke to the ultimate Jedi Master and make him unaccessible, it would be cool to make him the mcguffin of VII)

why did Kylo had to be a fan of Star Wars (because it would be cool to have another villain with a helmet. Johnson voices Snoke -because being that TFA is a commentary on the fans (and Lucas warned it, they made something for the fans) its continuation couldn’t be less than a commentary on that commentary in order to let the thing breathe again): Take that ridicoulous helmet off.

Why did Kylo had to be a complex, layered, gray bad guy? because it would be cool and it would sell (literally) to have a layered, relatable vilain: Vader proved and widened the notion of antihero as a figure of admiration.

What can you do to solve those starting points without flattening the most beloved character of the saga into a person capable of killing a boy? Look where the movie starts and where it ends.

As a writer, in order to preserve the essence of Luke, he had to change him to somehow justify an unjustifiable writing decission. And in doing so he closes another counterdiction in the movie, which makes it richer. Once F. Scott Fitzgerald said a mind of first class is that one that can enclose two opposite ideas at the same time.

By leaving, he can come back.
By refusing Yoda’s teachings in ESB, he becomes a Jedi
By refusing to be a Jedi, he ends up being the Last of them
By being the Last One, he seeds the future.
By meditating and looking within, he reaches beyond Ach-To, or the opposite
By reaching the exterior world, he reaches inner peace.
By coming back to life, he dies.
By dying, he ascends into the Force and lives forever.

Having Luke be in two places simultaneously is not only stating the most powerful force trick we’ve seen (and hope no one undermines this achievment in new installments of the saga makin it a random power) but as well it is the visual statement of the misterical duplicity of some human being’s destiny.

Brilliant observation

Collipso said:

yotsuya said:

First, what is the basis for Star Wars? While Lucas used Campbell’s mythical hero’s journey to craft the characters and a lot of the story, Star Wars is really based off of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Foundation, Dune, and a host of others, not to mention some solid, real world history. But even if you go back to the classic myths, what is one thing that holds true for each and every inspriation? Victories don’t last. Flash fought Ming over and over again. Buck Rogers had a new foe with every adventure. The Foundation faced a critical crisis generation after generation. Dune had crisis after crisis, often costing characters their lies. And in mythology, every victory lasted until it was time to tell another story. How many victories did Hercules have? What was always going to be true of a sequel - things were going to fall apart.

So, what is the setup we have now? Things fell apart. The Republic never got strong (a very realistic approach - far more so than the EU New Republic), a powerful foe rose up on the Rim and is poised to seize power. Revolutionary governments do not last. Why did the US last? Because we cut off the head and left the structure in place. The first revolution in France and Russia didn’t last because it didn’t have anything to fill the power vacuum. So it is very realistic that the Republic created by the allies of our heroes has failed. And note, that they failed to heed Leia who was already leading a resistance to the First Order. Luke had a huge failure that drove him to find the first Jedi temple and to hide there when it didn’t give him any answers. Han lost the Falcon, but ended up with a bigger ship. Virtually all of the failures are no on our old hero’s heads, but on others. The Republic fails because they don’t listen to Leia. Ben falls because he is listening to Snoke, not Luke. Our heroes have not failed so much as been ignored by the next generation. When they should be retiring, they have to go back at it and lead a new fight. But along comes a new set of heroes to pick up the reigns and learn from the great heroes of the past. Classic mythological story telling.

And the story so far has taken place over weeks. The New Republic capitol was destroyed, the First Order is poised to take over, but they have not done so. They have to take over each planet, each system. They have to put a structure in place. Leia’s allies didn’t respond to her call because the are preparing to defend themselves from the First Order. But Luke showed up just when Leia needed him in just the way she needed him - larger than life, legendary, the great Jedi and hero. Luke’s last stand spread like wildfire with even a stable boy (there is nothing ever indicating he is a slave) and his friends on a far off planet hear about what Luke did. Luke again restored hope in a way he never did in the OT. His epic battle with the Emperor and Vader was private. No witnesses. What Luke did in TLJ is epic and witnessed by many on both sides. I wouldn’t be surprised if Leia set the base to film and broadcast it before they exited.

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that. Not enough time has passed. The remains of Starkiller Base are not even cool yet. We have not heard of a single system that they have conquered and subjuated. The victory over the Empire has not been lost just yet, only the government that refused to prepare for the fight Leia could see coming. Only the Hosnian system and Takodana have been lost to the First Order, not the entire Galaxy. And after what Luke did and how it spread (the real purpose of that scene at the end), the legacy of the OT is intact. What they fought so hard for has not been lost yet, only endangered. Kylo Ren and General Hux still have to conquer something or all they have done is destroy the capitol.

This whole crapping on the OT nonsense is based on things that just aren’t in TFA and TLJ. Luke had a bad spell, but he came out of it. That is a very mythological thing to do. An old hero now fills the mentor role and is reluctant to get involved again due to some past tragedy. They ST is just following on with the same sources that inspired GL back in 74 to start this journey. And I think he is likely the source for the core story here. I think they threw out his characters and created some new ones that are more in tune with modern audiences like Luke, Han, and Leia were in tune with the 70’s and 80’s. I think that is one mistake of the PT, GL greated heroes that were in tune with some other period besides the 90’s and millennium. To me they feel more like the heroes of 50’s epics like Ben Hur.

So I think everyone who feels that TLJ is crapping on the OT is missing things and assuming things that any diehard Star Wars fan should be picking up on. Do you have to like it? No. But you need to see what the story is, and where it has been, and the origins of all of it before you come down on this movie like this. Sure it didn’t go where you expected. What is wrong with that. Sure it derailed the victory that the OT led to, but pay attention to the story. Not enough time has passed for that victory to be destroyed. They are building it up to create an even stronger victory. Luke may not have had success at rebuilding the Jedi, but he has passed on some important lessons to Rey. He passed on his failure so she can learn from it and the ancient texts of the Jedi. What the OT ended with was, in truth, uncertainty. It ended with the potential and intent to rebuild the Republic. But the government that resulted was weak. After the First Order are defeated, the galaxy will clamor for a strong Republic, like what we hoped they’d get. The ST won’t tear down what the OT left us with, but it has to throw a wrench in the works to shake things up so what we end up with is stronger than before. The ST heroes are there to finish what the OT heroes started.

Wow, you’ve really put a lot of thought into this post. Unfortunately I disagree with you in everything, especially the last sentence. The OT heroes finished it already. RotJ is an ending. You don’t have to destroy their victories so that the ST heroes can have their victories on top of the OT heroes’. That’s just, from my point of view, Rian Johnson doing whatever he can to destroy everything that’s within his reach simply because he can, to prove some sort of point to someone. To surprise everyone! Woohoo!! Plot twist baby, Darth Vader killed the Emperor!

Wait… didn’t he?

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

yotsuya said:

First, what is the basis for Star Wars? While Lucas used Campbell’s mythical hero’s journey to craft the characters and a lot of the story, Star Wars is really based off of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Foundation, Dune, and a host of others, not to mention some solid, real world history. But even if you go back to the classic myths, what is one thing that holds true for each and every inspriation? Victories don’t last. Flash fought Ming over and over again. Buck Rogers had a new foe with every adventure. The Foundation faced a critical crisis generation after generation. Dune had crisis after crisis, often costing characters their lies. And in mythology, every victory lasted until it was time to tell another story. How many victories did Hercules have? What was always going to be true of a sequel - things were going to fall apart.

So, what is the setup we have now? Things fell apart. The Republic never got strong (a very realistic approach - far more so than the EU New Republic), a powerful foe rose up on the Rim and is poised to seize power. Revolutionary governments do not last. Why did the US last? Because we cut off the head and left the structure in place. The first revolution in France and Russia didn’t last because it didn’t have anything to fill the power vacuum. So it is very realistic that the Republic created by the allies of our heroes has failed. And note, that they failed to heed Leia who was already leading a resistance to the First Order. Luke had a huge failure that drove him to find the first Jedi temple and to hide there when it didn’t give him any answers. Han lost the Falcon, but ended up with a bigger ship. Virtually all of the failures are no on our old hero’s heads, but on others. The Republic fails because they don’t listen to Leia. Ben falls because he is listening to Snoke, not Luke. Our heroes have not failed so much as been ignored by the next generation. When they should be retiring, they have to go back at it and lead a new fight. But along comes a new set of heroes to pick up the reigns and learn from the great heroes of the past. Classic mythological story telling.

And the story so far has taken place over weeks. The New Republic capitol was destroyed, the First Order is poised to take over, but they have not done so. They have to take over each planet, each system. They have to put a structure in place. Leia’s allies didn’t respond to her call because the are preparing to defend themselves from the First Order. But Luke showed up just when Leia needed him in just the way she needed him - larger than life, legendary, the great Jedi and hero. Luke’s last stand spread like wildfire with even a stable boy (there is nothing ever indicating he is a slave) and his friends on a far off planet hear about what Luke did. Luke again restored hope in a way he never did in the OT. His epic battle with the Emperor and Vader was private. No witnesses. What Luke did in TLJ is epic and witnessed by many on both sides. I wouldn’t be surprised if Leia set the base to film and broadcast it before they exited.

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that. Not enough time has passed. The remains of Starkiller Base are not even cool yet. We have not heard of a single system that they have conquered and subjuated. The victory over the Empire has not been lost just yet, only the government that refused to prepare for the fight Leia could see coming. Only the Hosnian system and Takodana have been lost to the First Order, not the entire Galaxy. And after what Luke did and how it spread (the real purpose of that scene at the end), the legacy of the OT is intact. What they fought so hard for has not been lost yet, only endangered. Kylo Ren and General Hux still have to conquer something or all they have done is destroy the capitol.

This whole crapping on the OT nonsense is based on things that just aren’t in TFA and TLJ. Luke had a bad spell, but he came out of it. That is a very mythological thing to do. An old hero now fills the mentor role and is reluctant to get involved again due to some past tragedy. They ST is just following on with the same sources that inspired GL back in 74 to start this journey. And I think he is likely the source for the core story here. I think they threw out his characters and created some new ones that are more in tune with modern audiences like Luke, Han, and Leia were in tune with the 70’s and 80’s. I think that is one mistake of the PT, GL greated heroes that were in tune with some other period besides the 90’s and millennium. To me they feel more like the heroes of 50’s epics like Ben Hur.

So I think everyone who feels that TLJ is crapping on the OT is missing things and assuming things that any diehard Star Wars fan should be picking up on. Do you have to like it? No. But you need to see what the story is, and where it has been, and the origins of all of it before you come down on this movie like this. Sure it didn’t go where you expected. What is wrong with that. Sure it derailed the victory that the OT led to, but pay attention to the story. Not enough time has passed for that victory to be destroyed. They are building it up to create an even stronger victory. Luke may not have had success at rebuilding the Jedi, but he has passed on some important lessons to Rey. He passed on his failure so she can learn from it and the ancient texts of the Jedi. What the OT ended with was, in truth, uncertainty. It ended with the potential and intent to rebuild the Republic. But the government that resulted was weak. After the First Order are defeated, the galaxy will clamor for a strong Republic, like what we hoped they’d get. The ST won’t tear down what the OT left us with, but it has to throw a wrench in the works to shake things up so what we end up with is stronger than before. The ST heroes are there to finish what the OT heroes started.

Wow, you’ve really put a lot of thought into this post. Unfortunately I disagree with you in everything, especially the last sentence. The OT heroes finished it already. RotJ is an ending. You don’t have to destroy their victories so that the ST heroes can have their victories on top of the OT heroes’. That’s just, from my point of view, Rian Johnson doing whatever he can to destroy everything that’s within his reach simply because he can, to prove some sort of point to someone. To surprise everyone! Woohoo!! Plot twist baby, Darth Vader killed the Emperor!

Wait… didn’t he?

Yes, just like Kylo killed Snoke. Ironic

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

yotsuya said:

First, what is the basis for Star Wars? While Lucas used Campbell’s mythical hero’s journey to craft the characters and a lot of the story, Star Wars is really based off of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Foundation, Dune, and a host of others, not to mention some solid, real world history. But even if you go back to the classic myths, what is one thing that holds true for each and every inspriation? Victories don’t last. Flash fought Ming over and over again. Buck Rogers had a new foe with every adventure. The Foundation faced a critical crisis generation after generation. Dune had crisis after crisis, often costing characters their lies. And in mythology, every victory lasted until it was time to tell another story. How many victories did Hercules have? What was always going to be true of a sequel - things were going to fall apart.

So, what is the setup we have now? Things fell apart. The Republic never got strong (a very realistic approach - far more so than the EU New Republic), a powerful foe rose up on the Rim and is poised to seize power. Revolutionary governments do not last. Why did the US last? Because we cut off the head and left the structure in place. The first revolution in France and Russia didn’t last because it didn’t have anything to fill the power vacuum. So it is very realistic that the Republic created by the allies of our heroes has failed. And note, that they failed to heed Leia who was already leading a resistance to the First Order. Luke had a huge failure that drove him to find the first Jedi temple and to hide there when it didn’t give him any answers. Han lost the Falcon, but ended up with a bigger ship. Virtually all of the failures are no on our old hero’s heads, but on others. The Republic fails because they don’t listen to Leia. Ben falls because he is listening to Snoke, not Luke. Our heroes have not failed so much as been ignored by the next generation. When they should be retiring, they have to go back at it and lead a new fight. But along comes a new set of heroes to pick up the reigns and learn from the great heroes of the past. Classic mythological story telling.

And the story so far has taken place over weeks. The New Republic capitol was destroyed, the First Order is poised to take over, but they have not done so. They have to take over each planet, each system. They have to put a structure in place. Leia’s allies didn’t respond to her call because the are preparing to defend themselves from the First Order. But Luke showed up just when Leia needed him in just the way she needed him - larger than life, legendary, the great Jedi and hero. Luke’s last stand spread like wildfire with even a stable boy (there is nothing ever indicating he is a slave) and his friends on a far off planet hear about what Luke did. Luke again restored hope in a way he never did in the OT. His epic battle with the Emperor and Vader was private. No witnesses. What Luke did in TLJ is epic and witnessed by many on both sides. I wouldn’t be surprised if Leia set the base to film and broadcast it before they exited.

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that. Not enough time has passed. The remains of Starkiller Base are not even cool yet. We have not heard of a single system that they have conquered and subjuated. The victory over the Empire has not been lost just yet, only the government that refused to prepare for the fight Leia could see coming. Only the Hosnian system and Takodana have been lost to the First Order, not the entire Galaxy. And after what Luke did and how it spread (the real purpose of that scene at the end), the legacy of the OT is intact. What they fought so hard for has not been lost yet, only endangered. Kylo Ren and General Hux still have to conquer something or all they have done is destroy the capitol.

This whole crapping on the OT nonsense is based on things that just aren’t in TFA and TLJ. Luke had a bad spell, but he came out of it. That is a very mythological thing to do. An old hero now fills the mentor role and is reluctant to get involved again due to some past tragedy. They ST is just following on with the same sources that inspired GL back in 74 to start this journey. And I think he is likely the source for the core story here. I think they threw out his characters and created some new ones that are more in tune with modern audiences like Luke, Han, and Leia were in tune with the 70’s and 80’s. I think that is one mistake of the PT, GL greated heroes that were in tune with some other period besides the 90’s and millennium. To me they feel more like the heroes of 50’s epics like Ben Hur.

So I think everyone who feels that TLJ is crapping on the OT is missing things and assuming things that any diehard Star Wars fan should be picking up on. Do you have to like it? No. But you need to see what the story is, and where it has been, and the origins of all of it before you come down on this movie like this. Sure it didn’t go where you expected. What is wrong with that. Sure it derailed the victory that the OT led to, but pay attention to the story. Not enough time has passed for that victory to be destroyed. They are building it up to create an even stronger victory. Luke may not have had success at rebuilding the Jedi, but he has passed on some important lessons to Rey. He passed on his failure so she can learn from it and the ancient texts of the Jedi. What the OT ended with was, in truth, uncertainty. It ended with the potential and intent to rebuild the Republic. But the government that resulted was weak. After the First Order are defeated, the galaxy will clamor for a strong Republic, like what we hoped they’d get. The ST won’t tear down what the OT left us with, but it has to throw a wrench in the works to shake things up so what we end up with is stronger than before. The ST heroes are there to finish what the OT heroes started.

Wow, you’ve really put a lot of thought into this post. Unfortunately I disagree with you in everything, especially the last sentence. The OT heroes finished it already. RotJ is an ending. You don’t have to destroy their victories so that the ST heroes can have their victories on top of the OT heroes’. That’s just, from my point of view, Rian Johnson doing whatever he can to destroy everything that’s within his reach simply because he can, to prove some sort of point to someone. To surprise everyone! Woohoo!! Plot twist baby, Darth Vader killed the Emperor!

Wait… didn’t he?

Yes, just like Kylo killed Snoke. Ironic

Classic Rian Johnson destroying everything, that rascal.

Zak fett said:

Do you think Ren will turn or die.

Everyone dies.

TV’s Frink said:

Zak fett said:

Do you think Ren will turn or die.

Everyone dies.

Ren will turn everyone, and the FO will rule forever. All hail the Supreme Leader!

Everyone will do a 360.

Broom boy is Ric Olie’s grandson.