My understanding was that Zuvio had a scene in daylight at the Outpost. We’ve seen stills.
They absolutely could leave Rey’s lineage as it stands at the end of TLJ. RJ said that JJ and he discussed the parentage, he was told he could do whatever he wants. That either speaks to JJ not caring where it went or a plan he had to do something in the 3rd film (which he became responsible for after the fact).
These are the latest comments I have seen by RJ about it and when asked point blank about it, he waffles:
"So, can I just make the statement, that’s who her parents are? They came from nothing, they’re buried in the desert, is that for sure?
RIAN JOHNSON: That’s what Kylo sees and that’s what he tells her and I think he’s not lying in that moment. That’s what he saw and she seems to believe it when she hears it. I don’t want to … I’m not writing the next film, we’ll see how they handle it going forward, and as we all know in these movies, there’s always a certain point of view that’s involved. But, for me, I’ll tell you that was the … I can understand why that answer doesn’t feel good. It’s not supposed to feel good. It’s supposed to be the hardest thing she could possibly hear in that moment."
Even when he doubles back to his own decision, he won’t just say “Yes”.
Rey can still be a Skywalker, just not directly related to Luke. We know nothing of the family tree before Anakin and his mother.
You may commence screaming at invoking the prequels now. 😛
Where were you in '77?
Rey can still be a Skywalker, just not directly related to Luke. We know nothing of the family tree before Anakin and his mother.
You may commence screaming at invoking the prequels now. 😛
Oh God. Because they’re playing on the audience’s expectations, maybe they will indeed make what Kylo said a lie.
Why should Kylo be telling the truth? He’s misled Rey once already.
Where were you in '77?
So I just read something that really made me think, and honestly I agree with pretty much everything. It is as follows:
"At the end of episode VI, the protagonists had achieved something. The Jedi. Redemption. Republic. All those things were systematically annihilated to the point of no return. With TLJ, the current artists have said that there is no impact done by the heroes of the original trilogy, and have set to kill them all, break down what they have built, and salt the earth. Not a single thing they have built stood, and it has all been washed away. This was not necessary to tell a story: you could tell a story where a Jedi Order or a Republic existed, even if far away, in another corner of the galaxy. You could tell good stories with that. But they have decided, explicitly, to destroy everything the heroes have built, show their success means nothing, and kill them all.
And if they did not intend to do that, well. Are they incapable of thinking? Because that is what they did.
They have shown that victory is fleeting and has no meaning, for all evil has to do is sneeze and remove everything that has been won from the board. All of it. All will crumble so easily. I don’t… really feel good about Star Wars, and may even skip Episode IX at this moment, since… if they win? What then? It will be another desperate fight to the last moment against a superior foe (and hint, if you don’t want geeks to wank to your villains, you should not make them superior to the heroes in every way, at all times) until they win in the end, at which point, like the end of this, we are told it is all good… but it isn’t, really. They will all just die, and all they did, will just crumble, right around the corner.
Or, worse, they will not. Johnston may go on to direct his trilogy, where heroes will win, and live happily ever after, and gain the rewards of retirement.
This is how artists tend to work, after all - especially the ones beloved of geekdom. Send off your heroes into the sunset. Murder those other people created in ways that make them appear pathetic, lesser, and unimportant. Much like the people who made this movie, geekdom loves the things of their childhoods but also feel so ashamed they want to destroy them to… prove something. I’m not sure what.
I love the current crew. I love Finn, and Rey, and particularly Poe, who may be my favorite Star Wars character of all time (on the note I was on #TeamSkywalker on the original trilogy)… but they are not that much better than the OT crew that the OT crew deserved to have their works annihilated, their successes pissed on, and their lives taken just for their aggrandizement. If anything, this makes me like characters I loved - the new ones - far less. The movie is either very confused on that fact, or pretty clear when it points out Finn shouldn’t sacrifice himself, but then has Luke… sacrifices himself.
And all as tax. He dies because he lost his will to live, without even so much as strangling and having to give birth; all because they had to kill one OT hero per movie, at least. All for something as mechanic as a tax.
He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.
It just leaves me rather hollow with their views on storytelling, on collaborative storytelling, and on characters, in general."
Why should Kylo be telling the truth? He’s misled Rey once already.
I don’t think he’s lying. Before he reveals who Rey’s parents are, he says she should know it and then he’s surprised that she doesn’t. Maybe Snoke manipulated his vision of Rey’s parents, as he established the connection between Rey and Kylo in the first place, but personally, I like the idea of Rey Random too much to believe that.
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What Kylo said is true… from a certain point of view. His description of her parents is correct but not his description of why they left.
Why should Kylo be telling the truth? He’s misled Rey once already.
I don’t think he’s lying. Before he reveals who Rey’s parents are, he says she should know it and then he’s surprised that she doesn’t. Maybe Snoke manipulated his vision of Rey’s parents, as he established the connection between Rey and Kylo in the first place, but personally, I like the idea of Rey Random too much to believe that.
She does know it though. She’s the one that says they’re nobody.
So I just read something that really made me think, and honestly I agree with pretty much everything. It is as follows:
"At the end of episode VI, the protagonists had achieved something. The Jedi. Redemption. Republic. All those things were systematically annihilated to the point of no return. With TLJ, the current artists have said that there is no impact done by the heroes of the original trilogy, and have set to kill them all, break down what they have built, and salt the earth. Not a single thing they have built stood, and it has all been washed away. This was not necessary to tell a story: you could tell a story where a Jedi Order or a Republic existed, even if far away, in another corner of the galaxy. You could tell good stories with that. But they have decided, explicitly, to destroy everything the heroes have built, show their success means nothing, and kill them all.
And if they did not intend to do that, well. Are they incapable of thinking? Because that is what they did.
They have shown that victory is fleeting and has no meaning, for all evil has to do is sneeze and remove everything that has been won from the board. All of it. All will crumble so easily. I don’t… really feel good about Star Wars, and may even skip Episode IX at this moment, since… if they win? What then? It will be another desperate fight to the last moment against a superior foe (and hint, if you don’t want geeks to wank to your villains, you should not make them superior to the heroes in every way, at all times) until they win in the end, at which point, like the end of this, we are told it is all good… but it isn’t, really. They will all just die, and all they did, will just crumble, right around the corner.
Or, worse, they will not. Johnston may go on to direct his trilogy, where heroes will win, and live happily ever after, and gain the rewards of retirement.
This is how artists tend to work, after all - especially the ones beloved of geekdom. Send off your heroes into the sunset. Murder those other people created in ways that make them appear pathetic, lesser, and unimportant. Much like the people who made this movie, geekdom loves the things of their childhoods but also feel so ashamed they want to destroy them to… prove something. I’m not sure what.
I love the current crew. I love Finn, and Rey, and particularly Poe, who may be my favorite Star Wars character of all time (on the note I was on #TeamSkywalker on the original trilogy)… but they are not that much better than the OT crew that the OT crew deserved to have their works annihilated, their successes pissed on, and their lives taken just for their aggrandizement. If anything, this makes me like characters I loved - the new ones - far less. The movie is either very confused on that fact, or pretty clear when it points out Finn shouldn’t sacrifice himself, but then has Luke… sacrifices himself.
And all as tax. He dies because he lost his will to live, without even so much as strangling and having to give birth; all because they had to kill one OT hero per movie, at least. All for something as mechanic as a tax.
He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.
It just leaves me rather hollow with their views on storytelling, on collaborative storytelling, and on characters, in general."
I don’t agree that Luke gave up and died. What he pulled off we had never seen before and it’s probably something Jedi seldom attempt because it can kill you.
If Obi Wan and Yoda can appear to give sage advice, Luke can teach as a ghost. There’s nothing in the films so far that says he can’t.
Where were you in '77?
I think it’s pretty disingenuous to say they’ve killed all the OT heroes. They only killed Han and Luke. We have no idea what they’ll do with Leia, and if they do kill her, it’s very possible that they only did so because their hands were tied.
Not to mention saying that Luke died as a failure… well obviously if you think that you missed the point entirely.
Victories aren’t forever, everyone dies. Once again, I go back to what I keep saying. People who are mad that things got turned upside down in the ST didn’t truly want the ST to begin with (and that’s okay).
People who are mad that things got turned upside down in the ST didn’t truly want the ST to begin with (and that’s okay).
That’s not true. Just because someone didn’t want things reset to our heroes being a small band of rebels against a huge empire again doesn’t at all mean that they didn’t want more stories. It’s not as if there’s no other story to tell.
I think it’s pretty disingenuous to say they’ve killed all the OT heroes. They only killed Han and Luke. We have no idea what they’ll do with Leia, and if they do kill her, it’s very possible that they only did so because their hands were tied.
Not to mention saying that Luke died as a failure… well obviously if you think that you missed the point entirely.
Victories aren’t forever, everyone dies. Once again, I go back to what I keep saying. People who are mad that things got turned upside down in the ST didn’t truly want the ST to begin with (and that’s okay).
Yes, but that’s a very cynical point of view in my opinion. Victories don’t last forever, in the real world, but there’s no denying this trilogy has deflated victory in the Star Wars universe in a huge way. It has undone everything the OT heroes fought for, literally resetting the galaxy back to Empire versus rebels. There’s another Jedi apprentice turned bad versus another new hope. They’ve done nothing to explain how the previous victory was undone. What’s to prevent a Second Order to rise from the ashes of the First One, after the next socalled victory, and a Third Order after that? Victory is hollow now in the Star Wars universe, because another director can just undo it to keep the galaxy in a perpetual state of conflict, without having to explain anything. Just pull another dark side master out of thin air with unlimited resources. I was watching RO today, and was struck how it expands the Star Wars universe. The ST universe feels very tiny by comparison.
Flash Gordon defeated Ming the Merciless how many times and kept coming back for more?
Where were you in '77?
Flash Gordon defeated Ming the Merciless how many times and kept coming back for more?
Yes, and GI Joe defeated Cobra how many times, with Cobra commander shouting retreat, retreat?!!
Good fun, but it is not be my benchmark for great story telling.
One was the inspiration for Star Wars, the other is not. 😉
Where were you in '77?
“The rebels victory at the end of Return Of The Jedi seems tenuous at best” Chris Taylor, in his bestseller How Star Wars Conquered The Universe.
Tenuous at best.
“The rebels victory at the end of Return Of The Jedi seems tenuous at best” Chris Taylor, in his bestseller How Star Wars Conquered The Universe.
Tenuous at best.
Yes, just another opinion.
Got to love this forum. Post a no name you tuber review and it gets + comments, but quote an expert like Mark Kermode or Chris Taylor and it gets dismissed…
Got to love this forum. Post a no name you tuber review and it gets + comments, but quote an expert like Mark Kermode or Chris Taylor and it gets dismissed…
Why should his interpretation of the ending of a 1983 movie matter more than mine? What makes him an expert in analyzing Star Wars endings? I mean, I know he looked deep into it, but I think we all did that too. I totally respect him and stuff, but I’m pretty sure I’ve watched RotJ at least 20x more than he.
Victories in the real world don’t last, yes, but I’m not sure if the point of Star Wars was ever to be realistic or “peace doesn’t last” sort of message. In fact, I thought Lucas went out of his way while making Return of the Jedi to ensure that the movie would have a happy ending. Yeah I guess the ST would undone this anyway, but I don’t like the approach of “systematically destroying everything our OT heroes built”.
Got to love this forum. Post a no name you tuber review and it gets + comments, but quote an expert like Mark Kermode or Chris Taylor and it gets dismissed…
If it makes you feel better, I don’t care about any of them.
The victory at the end of Jedi was “tenuous at best”. Anyone claiming otherwise probably hasn’t watched the movies very closely.
“I shouldn’t have come, Vader is on that ship” Luke
“Don’t get jittery Luke, there are a lot of command ships” Han
We aren’t just talking about the regular Star Destroyers, but the ridiculously large Super Star Destroyers. Just a single one of those would be a match for the entire Rebel fleet… and there are “lots”.
So I just read something that really made me think, and honestly I agree with pretty much everything. It is as follows:
I think that is a compelling point of view. In a story where you can really go anywhere, do anything, to stick like glue to an undoing of what was done feels hollow. Themes of failure and gray areas can be effectively - I think more effectively - explored without undoing everything.
This may seem silly but I remember being amazed as a child when I realized that the bad guys were actually the government in charge of the galaxy. That’s kind of a big idea when you’re little. War between different governments or war brought on by bad guys against a government are simpler ideas. One can imagine that the new Republic, relatively good as it may be, is not seen as good by everyone. War between the Republic and competing (not simply evil) factions challenges our heroes and ourselves.
The blue elephant in the room.
People who are mad that things got turned upside down in the ST didn’t truly want the ST to begin with (and that’s okay).
That’s not true. Just because someone didn’t want things reset to our heroes being a small band of rebels against a huge empire again doesn’t at all mean that they didn’t want more stories. It’s not as if there’s no other story to tell.
I’m not saying the ST had to be this exact story, but, barring something stupid as shit like an extragalactic threat, it was always going to be some sort of version of this.
For the ST to have stakes and not be entirely worthless and without meaning, the victory at the end of ROTJ had to be challenged to some extent, and the characters had to be something other than the boring, irreproachable and unharmable “heroes” we got in the EU.
People who are mad that things got turned upside down in the ST didn’t truly want the ST to begin with (and that’s okay).
That’s not true. Just because someone didn’t want things reset to our heroes being a small band of rebels against a huge empire again doesn’t at all mean that they didn’t want more stories. It’s not as if there’s no other story to tell.
I’m not saying the ST had to be this exact story, but, barring something stupid as shit like an extragalactic threat, it was always going to be some sort of version of this.
For the ST to have stakes and not be entirely worthless and without meaning, the victory at the end of ROTJ had to be challenged to some extent, and the characters had to be something other than the boring, irreproachable and unharmable “heroes” we got in the EU.
I’d argue that they skipped a trilogy worth of stories that happened in 30 years in order to reset the galaxy to the same old status quo. And that the ST was one of the possible futures of all that happened.
But they could’ve made Episode VII and VIII different with the same status quo without undoing everything our heroes did.
They skipped 30 years because George took a break after ROTJ and here is no way to go back to that period, now.
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