One argument that I hear against Luke is that his failure led to the First Order, but that’s clearly not true. Snoke had already turned Ben while Luke was still training him, so clearly the First Order was well-established long before Luke’s mistake. All Luke did was to accelerate Ben’s defection. In fact, if he had waited to confront Ben, the situation could have been worse because of Ben’s additional training.
Snoke finished his training though.
In ROTJ, I liked the Ewoks. Even remember playing with that Ewok village toy. But after the prequels came out, I learned that there were a sizable group of OT fans who hated the Ewoks. i.e. just there to sell toys, or were too cuddly or something. I can understand people not liking the Ewoks. I do hate the CGI with blinking eyes in the Blu-Rays though. Also wish the Ewoks battle scenes didn’t have that green screen look to them.
But at least the Ewoks weren’t nothing near like Jar Jar.
But I was wondering. Are there any here who hated the Ewoks, but love the Porgs?
I don’t really like the Porgs, and wished they weren’t in the movie. Or at least not the way they used the Porgs for comic relief.
Luke ran away at a moment when he could have stayed and averted the entire rise of the First Order. It was precisely because Luke left that Snoke Kylo and others had an opportunity to lay waste to the galaxy. This is also why, while I love aspects of the epicness of Luke’s end on Crait, the argument that we should celebrate Luke’s effort as something that should inspire the galaxy and was an amazing act of sacrifice requires me to completely ignore the fact that Luke’s cowardice created and then grew the very enemies he is now being lauded for inspiring people to fight back against.
Lets celebrate Luke simply holding off (not defeating) enemies that have already essentially crushed everything he and his friends worked their entire lives for, enemies that he could have stopped before they even got started, if he had simply not run away. Yay?
By contrast, Obi-Wan and Yoda went into exile not as cowards but because they were literally all that was left of their order, but even in spite of that they had a plan in place to fight back against their enemies. They were playing the long game.
Luke on the other hand played no sort of game and just peaced out. Yet in the end I should celebrate the fact that he has basically brought the good guys back to a barely less state than they were when we first began his path in the Force. Honestly that’s pathetic.
And thats the bottom line for so many of us, they made Luke Skywalker pathetic. Even his victory and redemption really means nothing in the end. True victory and redemption would have been to not only acknowledge his cowardice openly (he never does) but also actually make up for it by striking his own blow to the first order.
Why not let Luke be able to get to do the damage that the Holdo Maneuver caused, for example, and go out in a blaze of glory? (I suggested this in another forum) Have him actually show up in the flesh on Crait before the rebels land there and still have all their transports, and bring down the star destroyer into the planet, killing him but giving the Resistance/rebels critical time to escape and (this is the key part) dealing the first order a critical blow, essentially making up in a small way for letting them become so big during his exile. Being more than just a distraction. He deserved something more like that.
The movie explored the nature of heroism - it’s not just about fighting what you hate, it’s saving what you love. Rose spells that out in a really cheesy dumb line at the end there in case you missed it. You can disagree with the message, but that’s still a part of RotJ and Star Wars in general to me.
Luke by the end of his arc in the OT learned to deal with things not with a lightsaber and violence, but with patience and a little compassion. He refused to strike down his father and threw his lightsaber away in a demonstration of his ideals. I don’t think his style is to wreck shit with a lightsaber and deal “critical blows.” Especially before the events of TFA, to a faction that hadn’t even done anything yet. And I’d wager being a force ghost and “more powerful than you can possibly imagine” is a lot better than kamikazing the FO just to hurt them.
Yes, his failure with Ben was a failure of himself and those ideals. But that’s the point of his guilt and disillusionment in himself. I don’t think he’d so soon after shamefully giving into his fear - if even for a second - do the same thing again, just with Snoke and the FO prior to TFA. After he has spent so long and gone through so much to develop that wisdom, he’s not going to make the same mistake twice. So he did what he thought was best, stay away. End the Jedi. To stop this madness forever. This whole cycle - the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo - ends with him. After all, the force and the light of it don’t belong to the Jedi Order. There will always be good and light with or without them. Just like there was still darkness after the Sith, otherwise we wouldn’t have Snoke.
I just don’t think TLJ asks us to celebrate Luke as an infallible legend, but as a man - more like you and me - who, in spite of his failures, was able to get back up from a rut and find a hero inside himself again. In some ways, that’s more true to the humanity of the character than the version many people wanted to see. The idea is that no one really deserves that burden. We’re all just people at the end of the day, even your heroes.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d be fine if we got the other thing too. But that’s what surprised me and what resonated with me with TLJ. They managed to take a less obvious path with the character that paid off in a way that was more poignant and emotional than I was expecting from Star Wars. We sometimes forget that Luke was just a simple farm boy and not always the self assured Jedi Knight from RotJ; he doesn’t lose his humanity just because he grew up. That was always his strength and what won against the Emperor in the first place - his compassion and love for his father. He wasn’t special because he kicked ass.
edit: WOW i’ve been beating a dead horse, i’ll shut up now. i just see the same thing all the time and no one ever responds to what i say all the way im sorry
All good. Outstanding post and you put a lot of time and effort into it. Nothing to apologise for. I completely get that view. Just don’t share it. I feel that by stepping away after he made his mistake of considering killing Ben (which I have decided to accept since no one’s perfect), Luke was even more guilty of not “saving what he loved” and by his passivity as a response, arguably caused the very deaths he foresaw. I guess I would think Luke as a hero would feel a sense of responsibility to use his powers to fight back especially since he is to blame for the mess of the First Order. I feel like every character should have a limit to patience and compassion especially when it causes deaths on a massive scale. But to each his or her own!
I guess the other bottom line for me was, I had been prepared for years for his death and had thought about all the ways Luke could die and how it would be the most emotional/saddest yet coolest thing ever. Luke going out in an epic blaze of glory was something I had dreamed of for years. And when he actually died, I got really confused and didn’t even realize he was dead until the scene shifted to the Falcon. That sucks but I’m glad you and others were moved by it and got to experience what I feel like I was robbed of (whether my own fault or not).
In hindsight, the callback to binary suns was absolutely beautiful (as the moment in ANH is arguably one of the most emotional moments in film history). But I feel like not even being prepared for it took away the resonance of the moment for me. Normally in movies surprises are fun, but I feel like I found out that for me, surprises take away the resonance of moments that should be moving.
I think a big part of it is, that TLJ completely alters the perspective on the character of Luke Skywalker. Some here are trying to defend his characterization by arguing, that TLJ Luke is a logical exponent of early OT Luke, which I don’t agree with. TLJ Luke is as much a retcon as the ROTJ final victory being undone.
Luke was the Yin to his father’s Yang. In the OT his character was set up to have most if not all of his father’s flaws, but unlike his father he was to make the right choices. His destiny was to pass on what he had learned, to surpass his elders, to become a legend.
We skip to ST continuity, where the Alliance’s victory did not lead to a lasting peace. Han and Leia who were destined to be together, got a monster kid, and they separated. It’s not that later generations squandered the OT’s victory, it’s the very heroes of the OT who let it slip through their fingers. The OT fairy tale did not have a fairy tale ending.
The ST represents the reality check of Star Wars. Legends and fairy tales are not real, and TLJ Luke Skywalker is an exponent of that. The OT Luke Skywalker is an icon, someone we aspire to be. TLJ Luke is like discovering the father you allways looked up to, is an alcoholic. He’s more human, and stripped from his iconic status. Sure, he went to AA meetings and finally sobered up, but you never quite look at him in the same way you used to.
The OT is a fairy tale, like Santa Clause, and here’s RJ to tell you Santa Clause does not exist. He’s just some guy in a suit. Christmas is never quite the same to you. Sure, your kids look to this new guy (or girl actually) who’s now wearing the suit, and see Santa Clause, but you know it’s a fake beard, because Star Wars is not a fairytale anymore.
Luke ran away at a moment when he could have stayed and averted the entire rise of the First Order. It was precisely because Luke left that Snoke Kylo and others had an opportunity to lay waste to the galaxy. This is also why, while I love aspects of the epicness of Luke’s end on Crait, the argument that we should celebrate Luke’s effort as something that should inspire the galaxy and was an amazing act of sacrifice requires me to completely ignore the fact that Luke’s cowardice created and then grew the very enemies he is now being lauded for inspiring people to fight back against.
Lets celebrate Luke simply holding off (not defeating) enemies that have already essentially crushed everything he and his friends worked their entire lives for, enemies that he could have stopped before they even got started, if he had simply not run away. Yay?
By contrast, Obi-Wan and Yoda went into exile not as cowards but because they were literally all that was left of their order, but even in spite of that they had a plan in place to fight back against their enemies. They were playing the long game.
Luke on the other hand played no sort of game and just peaced out. Yet in the end I should celebrate the fact that he has basically brought the good guys back to a barely less state than they were when we first began his path in the Force. Honestly that’s pathetic.
And thats the bottom line for so many of us, they made Luke Skywalker pathetic. Even his victory and redemption really means nothing in the end. True victory and redemption would have been to not only acknowledge his cowardice openly (he never does) but also actually make up for it by striking his own blow to the first order.
Why not let Luke be able to get to do the damage that the Holdo Maneuver caused, for example, and go out in a blaze of glory? (I suggested this in another forum) Have him actually show up in the flesh on Crait before the rebels land there and still have all their transports, and bring down the star destroyer into the planet, killing him but giving the Resistance/rebels critical time to escape and (this is the key part) dealing the first order a critical blow, essentially making up in a small way for letting them become so big during his exile. Being more than just a distraction. He deserved something more like that.
The movie explored the nature of heroism - it’s not just about fighting what you hate, it’s saving what you love. Rose spells that out in a really cheesy dumb line at the end there in case you missed it. You can disagree with the message, but that’s still a part of RotJ and Star Wars in general to me.
Luke by the end of his arc in the OT learned to deal with things not with a lightsaber and violence, but with patience and a little compassion. He refused to strike down his father and threw his lightsaber away in a demonstration of his ideals. I don’t think his style is to wreck shit with a lightsaber and deal “critical blows.” Especially before the events of TFA, to a faction that hadn’t even done anything yet. And I’d wager being a force ghost and “more powerful than you can possibly imagine” is a lot better than kamikazing the FO just to hurt them.
Yes, his failure with Ben was a failure of himself and those ideals. But that’s the point of his guilt and disillusionment in himself. I don’t think he’d so soon after shamefully giving into his fear - if even for a second - do the same thing again, just with Snoke and the FO prior to TFA. After he has spent so long and gone through so much to develop that wisdom, he’s not going to make the same mistake twice. So he did what he thought was best, stay away. End the Jedi. To stop this madness forever. This whole cycle - the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo - ends with him. After all, the force and the light of it don’t belong to the Jedi Order. There will always be good and light with or without them. Just like there was still darkness after the Sith, otherwise we wouldn’t have Snoke.
I just don’t think TLJ asks us to celebrate Luke as an infallible legend, but as a man - more like you and me - who, in spite of his failures, was able to get back up from a rut and find a hero inside himself again. In some ways, that’s more true to the humanity of the character than the version many people wanted to see. The idea is that no one really deserves that burden. We’re all just people at the end of the day, even your heroes.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d be fine if we got the other thing too. But that’s what surprised me and what resonated with me with TLJ. They managed to take a less obvious path with the character that paid off in a way that was more poignant and emotional than I was expecting from Star Wars. We sometimes forget that Luke was just a simple farm boy and not always the self assured Jedi Knight from RotJ; he doesn’t lose his humanity just because he grew up. That was always his strength and what won against the Emperor in the first place - his compassion and love for his father. He wasn’t special because he kicked ass.
edit: WOW i’ve been beating a dead horse, i’ll shut up now. i just see the same thing all the time and no one ever responds to what i say all the way im sorry
All good. Outstanding post and you put a lot of time and effort into it. Nothing to apologise for. I completely get that view. Just don’t share it. I feel that by stepping away after he made his mistake of considering killing Ben (which I have decided to accept since no one’s perfect), Luke was even more guilty of not “saving what he loved” and by his passivity as a response, arguably caused the very deaths he foresaw. I guess I would think Luke as a hero would feel a sense of responsibility to use his powers to fight back especially since he is to blame for the mess of the First Order. I feel like every character should have a limit to patience and compassion especially when it causes deaths on a massive scale. But to each his or her own!
I guess the other bottom line for me was, I had been prepared for years for his death and had thought about all the ways Luke could die and how it would be the most emotional/saddest yet coolest thing ever. Luke going out in an epic blaze of glory was something I had dreamed of for years. And when he actually died, I got really confused and didn’t even realize he was dead until the scene shifted to the Falcon. That sucks but I’m glad you and others were moved by it and got to experience what I feel like I was robbed of (whether my own fault or not).
In hindsight, the callback to binary suns was absolutely beautiful (as the moment in ANH is arguably one of the most emotional moments in film history). But I feel like not even being prepared for it took away the resonance of the moment for me. Normally in movies surprises are fun, but I feel like I found out that for me, surprises take away the resonance of moments that should be moving.
I think a big part of it is, that TLJ completely alters the perspective on the character of Luke Skywalker. Some here are trying to defend his characterization by arguing, that TLJ Luke is a logical exponent of early OT Luke, which I don’t agree with. TLJ Luke is as much a retcon as the ROTJ final victory being undone.
Luke was the Yin to his father’s Yang. In the OT his character was set up to have most if not all of his father’s flaws, but unlike his father he was to make the right choices. His destiny was to pass on what he had learned, to surpass his elders, to become a legend.
We skip to ST continuity, where the Alliance’s victory did not lead to a lasting peace. Han and Leia who were destined to be together, got a monster kid, and they separated. It’s not that later generations squandered the OT’s victory, it’s the very heroes of the OT who let it slip through their fingers. The OT fairy tale did not have a fairy tale ending.
The ST represents the reality check of Star Wars. Legends and fairy tales are not real, and TLJ Luke Skywalker is an exponent of that. The OT Luke Skywalker is an icon, someone we aspire to be. TLJ Luke is like discovering the father you allways looked up to, is an alcoholic. He’s more human, and stripped from his iconic status. Sure, he went to AA meetings and finally sobered up, but you never quite look at him in the same way you used to.
The OT is a fairy tale, like Santa Clause, and here’s RJ to tell you Santa Clause does not exist. He’s just some guy in a suit. Christmas is never quite the same to you. Sure, your kids look to this new guy (or girl actually) who’s now wearing the suit, and see Santa Clause, but you know it’s a fake beard, because Star Wars is not a fairytale anymore.
Holy shit I honestly think this post is genius.
Luke ran away at a moment when he could have stayed and averted the entire rise of the First Order. It was precisely because Luke left that Snoke Kylo and others had an opportunity to lay waste to the galaxy. This is also why, while I love aspects of the epicness of Luke’s end on Crait, the argument that we should celebrate Luke’s effort as something that should inspire the galaxy and was an amazing act of sacrifice requires me to completely ignore the fact that Luke’s cowardice created and then grew the very enemies he is now being lauded for inspiring people to fight back against.
Lets celebrate Luke simply holding off (not defeating) enemies that have already essentially crushed everything he and his friends worked their entire lives for, enemies that he could have stopped before they even got started, if he had simply not run away. Yay?
By contrast, Obi-Wan and Yoda went into exile not as cowards but because they were literally all that was left of their order, but even in spite of that they had a plan in place to fight back against their enemies. They were playing the long game.
Luke on the other hand played no sort of game and just peaced out. Yet in the end I should celebrate the fact that he has basically brought the good guys back to a barely less state than they were when we first began his path in the Force. Honestly that’s pathetic.
And thats the bottom line for so many of us, they made Luke Skywalker pathetic. Even his victory and redemption really means nothing in the end. True victory and redemption would have been to not only acknowledge his cowardice openly (he never does) but also actually make up for it by striking his own blow to the first order.
Why not let Luke be able to get to do the damage that the Holdo Maneuver caused, for example, and go out in a blaze of glory? (I suggested this in another forum) Have him actually show up in the flesh on Crait before the rebels land there and still have all their transports, and bring down the star destroyer into the planet, killing him but giving the Resistance/rebels critical time to escape and (this is the key part) dealing the first order a critical blow, essentially making up in a small way for letting them become so big during his exile. Being more than just a distraction. He deserved something more like that.
The movie explored the nature of heroism - it’s not just about fighting what you hate, it’s saving what you love. Rose spells that out in a really cheesy dumb line at the end there in case you missed it. You can disagree with the message, but that’s still a part of RotJ and Star Wars in general to me.
Luke by the end of his arc in the OT learned to deal with things not with a lightsaber and violence, but with patience and a little compassion. He refused to strike down his father and threw his lightsaber away in a demonstration of his ideals. I don’t think his style is to wreck shit with a lightsaber and deal “critical blows.” Especially before the events of TFA, to a faction that hadn’t even done anything yet. And I’d wager being a force ghost and “more powerful than you can possibly imagine” is a lot better than kamikazing the FO just to hurt them.
Yes, his failure with Ben was a failure of himself and those ideals. But that’s the point of his guilt and disillusionment in himself. I don’t think he’d so soon after shamefully giving into his fear - if even for a second - do the same thing again, just with Snoke and the FO prior to TFA. After he has spent so long and gone through so much to develop that wisdom, he’s not going to make the same mistake twice. So he did what he thought was best, stay away. End the Jedi. To stop this madness forever. This whole cycle - the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo - ends with him. After all, the force and the light of it don’t belong to the Jedi Order. There will always be good and light with or without them. Just like there was still darkness after the Sith, otherwise we wouldn’t have Snoke.
I just don’t think TLJ asks us to celebrate Luke as an infallible legend, but as a man - more like you and me - who, in spite of his failures, was able to get back up from a rut and find a hero inside himself again. In some ways, that’s more true to the humanity of the character than the version many people wanted to see. The idea is that no one really deserves that burden. We’re all just people at the end of the day, even your heroes.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d be fine if we got the other thing too. But that’s what surprised me and what resonated with me with TLJ. They managed to take a less obvious path with the character that paid off in a way that was more poignant and emotional than I was expecting from Star Wars. We sometimes forget that Luke was just a simple farm boy and not always the self assured Jedi Knight from RotJ; he doesn’t lose his humanity just because he grew up. That was always his strength and what won against the Emperor in the first place - his compassion and love for his father. He wasn’t special because he kicked ass.
edit: WOW i’ve been beating a dead horse, i’ll shut up now. i just see the same thing all the time and no one ever responds to what i say all the way im sorry
All good. Outstanding post and you put a lot of time and effort into it. Nothing to apologise for. I completely get that view. Just don’t share it. I feel that by stepping away after he made his mistake of considering killing Ben (which I have decided to accept since no one’s perfect), Luke was even more guilty of not “saving what he loved” and by his passivity as a response, arguably caused the very deaths he foresaw. I guess I would think Luke as a hero would feel a sense of responsibility to use his powers to fight back especially since he is to blame for the mess of the First Order. I feel like every character should have a limit to patience and compassion especially when it causes deaths on a massive scale. But to each his or her own!
I guess the other bottom line for me was, I had been prepared for years for his death and had thought about all the ways Luke could die and how it would be the most emotional/saddest yet coolest thing ever. Luke going out in an epic blaze of glory was something I had dreamed of for years. And when he actually died, I got really confused and didn’t even realize he was dead until the scene shifted to the Falcon. That sucks but I’m glad you and others were moved by it and got to experience what I feel like I was robbed of (whether my own fault or not).
In hindsight, the callback to binary suns was absolutely beautiful (as the moment in ANH is arguably one of the most emotional moments in film history). But I feel like not even being prepared for it took away the resonance of the moment for me. Normally in movies surprises are fun, but I feel like I found out that for me, surprises take away the resonance of moments that should be moving.
I think a big part of it is, that TLJ completely alters the perspective on the character of Luke Skywalker. Some here are trying to defend his characterization by arguing, that TLJ Luke is a logical exponent of early OT Luke, which I don’t agree with. TLJ Luke is as much a retcon as the ROTJ final victory being undone.
Luke was the Yin to his father’s Yang. In the OT his character was set up to have most if not all of his father’s flaws, but unlike his father he was to make the right choices. His destiny was to pass on what he had learned, to surpass his elders, to become a legend.
We skip to ST continuity, where the Alliance’s victory did not lead to a lasting peace. Han and Leia who were destined to be together, got a monster kid, and they separated. It’s not that later generations squandered the OT’s victory, it’s the very heroes of the OT who let it slip through their fingers. The OT fairy tale did not have a fairy tale ending.
The ST represents the reality check of Star Wars. Legends and fairy tales are not real, and TLJ Luke Skywalker is an exponent of that. The OT Luke Skywalker is an icon, someone we aspire to be. TLJ Luke is like discovering the father you allways looked up to, is an alcoholic. He’s more human, and stripped from his iconic status. Sure, he went to AA meetings and finally sobered up, but you never quite look at him in the same way you used to.
The OT is a fairy tale, like Santa Clause, and here’s RJ to tell you Santa Clause does not exist. He’s just some guy in a suit. Christmas is never quite the same to you. Sure, your kids look to this new guy (or girl actually) who’s now wearing the suit, and see Santa Clause, but you know it’s a fake beard, because Star Wars is not a fairytale anymore.
Me personally, I really love this about TLJ. Legends and fairy tales may not be real, but the lessons and messages we take from them are still important. And even if real life isn’t perfect, the future is always worth fighting for.
DrDre Said:
Luke was the Yin to his father’s Yang. In the OT his character was set up to have most if not all of his father’s flaws, but unlike his father he was to make the right choices. His destiny was to pass on what he had learned, to surpass his elders, to become a legend.
And he has. We don’t see the kids at the end of TLJ playing with an Obi-wan or Yoda doll, do we? And he certainly passed on the most important lessons he has learned. He has passed on the knowledge of what the Force truly is, divorced from its Jedi distortions, and he has passed on the knowledge of his failures, which is the theme of the film.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
Luke ran away at a moment when he could have stayed and averted the entire rise of the First Order. It was precisely because Luke left that Snoke Kylo and others had an opportunity to lay waste to the galaxy. This is also why, while I love aspects of the epicness of Luke’s end on Crait, the argument that we should celebrate Luke’s effort as something that should inspire the galaxy and was an amazing act of sacrifice requires me to completely ignore the fact that Luke’s cowardice created and then grew the very enemies he is now being lauded for inspiring people to fight back against.
Lets celebrate Luke simply holding off (not defeating) enemies that have already essentially crushed everything he and his friends worked their entire lives for, enemies that he could have stopped before they even got started, if he had simply not run away. Yay?
By contrast, Obi-Wan and Yoda went into exile not as cowards but because they were literally all that was left of their order, but even in spite of that they had a plan in place to fight back against their enemies. They were playing the long game.
Luke on the other hand played no sort of game and just peaced out. Yet in the end I should celebrate the fact that he has basically brought the good guys back to a barely less state than they were when we first began his path in the Force. Honestly that’s pathetic.
And thats the bottom line for so many of us, they made Luke Skywalker pathetic. Even his victory and redemption really means nothing in the end. True victory and redemption would have been to not only acknowledge his cowardice openly (he never does) but also actually make up for it by striking his own blow to the first order.
Why not let Luke be able to get to do the damage that the Holdo Maneuver caused, for example, and go out in a blaze of glory? (I suggested this in another forum) Have him actually show up in the flesh on Crait before the rebels land there and still have all their transports, and bring down the star destroyer into the planet, killing him but giving the Resistance/rebels critical time to escape and (this is the key part) dealing the first order a critical blow, essentially making up in a small way for letting them become so big during his exile. Being more than just a distraction. He deserved something more like that.
The movie explored the nature of heroism - it’s not just about fighting what you hate, it’s saving what you love. Rose spells that out in a really cheesy dumb line at the end there in case you missed it. You can disagree with the message, but that’s still a part of RotJ and Star Wars in general to me.
Luke by the end of his arc in the OT learned to deal with things not with a lightsaber and violence, but with patience and a little compassion. He refused to strike down his father and threw his lightsaber away in a demonstration of his ideals. I don’t think his style is to wreck shit with a lightsaber and deal “critical blows.” Especially before the events of TFA, to a faction that hadn’t even done anything yet. And I’d wager being a force ghost and “more powerful than you can possibly imagine” is a lot better than kamikazing the FO just to hurt them.
Yes, his failure with Ben was a failure of himself and those ideals. But that’s the point of his guilt and disillusionment in himself. I don’t think he’d so soon after shamefully giving into his fear - if even for a second - do the same thing again, just with Snoke and the FO prior to TFA. After he has spent so long and gone through so much to develop that wisdom, he’s not going to make the same mistake twice. So he did what he thought was best, stay away. End the Jedi. To stop this madness forever. This whole cycle - the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo - ends with him. After all, the force and the light of it don’t belong to the Jedi Order. There will always be good and light with or without them. Just like there was still darkness after the Sith, otherwise we wouldn’t have Snoke.
I just don’t think TLJ asks us to celebrate Luke as an infallible legend, but as a man - more like you and me - who, in spite of his failures, was able to get back up from a rut and find a hero inside himself again. In some ways, that’s more true to the humanity of the character than the version many people wanted to see. The idea is that no one really deserves that burden. We’re all just people at the end of the day, even your heroes.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d be fine if we got the other thing too. But that’s what surprised me and what resonated with me with TLJ. They managed to take a less obvious path with the character that paid off in a way that was more poignant and emotional than I was expecting from Star Wars. We sometimes forget that Luke was just a simple farm boy and not always the self assured Jedi Knight from RotJ; he doesn’t lose his humanity just because he grew up. That was always his strength and what won against the Emperor in the first place - his compassion and love for his father. He wasn’t special because he kicked ass.
edit: WOW i’ve been beating a dead horse, i’ll shut up now. i just see the same thing all the time and no one ever responds to what i say all the way im sorry
All good. Outstanding post and you put a lot of time and effort into it. Nothing to apologise for. I completely get that view. Just don’t share it. I feel that by stepping away after he made his mistake of considering killing Ben (which I have decided to accept since no one’s perfect), Luke was even more guilty of not “saving what he loved” and by his passivity as a response, arguably caused the very deaths he foresaw. I guess I would think Luke as a hero would feel a sense of responsibility to use his powers to fight back especially since he is to blame for the mess of the First Order. I feel like every character should have a limit to patience and compassion especially when it causes deaths on a massive scale. But to each his or her own!
I guess the other bottom line for me was, I had been prepared for years for his death and had thought about all the ways Luke could die and how it would be the most emotional/saddest yet coolest thing ever. Luke going out in an epic blaze of glory was something I had dreamed of for years. And when he actually died, I got really confused and didn’t even realize he was dead until the scene shifted to the Falcon. That sucks but I’m glad you and others were moved by it and got to experience what I feel like I was robbed of (whether my own fault or not).
In hindsight, the callback to binary suns was absolutely beautiful (as the moment in ANH is arguably one of the most emotional moments in film history). But I feel like not even being prepared for it took away the resonance of the moment for me. Normally in movies surprises are fun, but I feel like I found out that for me, surprises take away the resonance of moments that should be moving.
I think a big part of it is, that TLJ completely alters the perspective on the character of Luke Skywalker. Some here are trying to defend his characterization by arguing, that TLJ Luke is a logical exponent of early OT Luke, which I don’t agree with. TLJ Luke is as much a retcon as the ROTJ final victory being undone.
Luke was the Yin to his father’s Yang. In the OT his character was set up to have most if not all of his father’s flaws, but unlike his father he was to make the right choices. His destiny was to pass on what he had learned, to surpass his elders, to become a legend.
We skip to ST continuity, where the Alliance’s victory did not lead to a lasting peace. Han and Leia who were destined to be together, got a monster kid, and they separated. It’s not that later generations squandered the OT’s victory, it’s the very heroes of the OT who let it slip through their fingers. The OT fairy tale did not have a fairy tale ending.
The ST represents the reality check of Star Wars. Legends and fairy tales are not real, and TLJ Luke Skywalker is an exponent of that. The OT Luke Skywalker is an icon, someone we aspire to be. TLJ Luke is like discovering the father you allways looked up to, is an alcoholic. He’s more human, and stripped from his iconic status. Sure, he went to AA meetings and finally sobered up, but you never quite look at him in the same way you used to.
The OT is a fairy tale, like Santa Clause, and here’s RJ to tell you Santa Clause does not exist. He’s just some guy in a suit. Christmas is never quite the same to you. Sure, your kids look to this new guy (or girl actually) who’s now wearing the suit, and see Santa Clause, but you know it’s a fake beard, because Star Wars is not a fairytale anymore.
Me personally, I really love this about TLJ. Legends and fairy tales may not be real, but the lessons and messages we take from them are still important. And even if real life isn’t perfect, the future is always worth fighting for.
Exactly.
DrDre Said:
Luke was the Yin to his father’s Yang. In the OT his character was set up to have most if not all of his father’s flaws, but unlike his father he was to make the right choices. His destiny was to pass on what he had learned, to surpass his elders, to become a legend.
And he has. We don’t see the kids at the end of TLJ playing with an Obi-wan or Yoda doll, do we? And he certainly passed on the most important lessons he has learned. He has passed on the knowledge of what the Force truly is, divorced from its Jedi distortions, and he has passed on the knowledge of his failures, which is the theme of the film.
Yes, to those kids he’s Santa Clause. I’ll agree with you on that. I wish I could still believe in Santa Clause…
Luke has passed on another interpretation of the Force. Who’s to say that won’t be as much a distortion as the Jedi interpretation? Maybe not now, but in a 1,000 generations, or when another director at some point has a different idea of what it represents. This is the real lesson of TLJ, methinks.
The Force shouldn’t have a rigid definition.
The Force shouldn’t have a rigid definition.
Then let’s not treat RJ’s definition as the second coming. By attempting to strip the original definition of it’s iconic status, RJ’s definition cannot be even that anymore. It’s just another opinion from some guy in a fake beard.
Double post.
The Force shouldn’t have a rigid definition.
Then let’s not treat RJ’s definition as the second coming. By attempting to strip the original definition of it’s iconic status, RJ’s definition cannot be even that anymore. It’s just another opinion.
I’m not. I’m saying exactly what I’m saying. The Force shouldn’t have a rigid definition.
The Force shouldn’t have a rigid definition.
Then let’s not treat RJ’s definition as the second coming. By attempting to strip the original definition of it’s iconic status, RJ’s definition cannot be even that anymore. It’s just another opinion.
I’m not. I’m saying exactly what I’m saying. The Force shouldn’t have a rigid definition.
Tell it to NeverarGreat 😉:
He has passed on the knowledge of what the Force truly is, divorced from its Jedi distortions.
Well I do think the Jedi in the PT have too rigid a definition of the Force. Whether George did that on purpose, doesn’t matter, as I’m glad to see the ST expand it into so much more than just midichlorian counts.
Well I do think the Jedi in the PT have too rigid a definition of the Force. Whether George did that on purpose, doesn’t matter, as I’m glad to see the ST expand it into so much more than just midichlorian counts.
I think it was a little more than that to George, and to me too. The Force is just The Force. Jediism is a 1,000 generations worth of knowledge about and understanding of The Force.
DrDre Said:
Luke was the Yin to his father’s Yang. In the OT his character was set up to have most if not all of his father’s flaws, but unlike his father he was to make the right choices. His destiny was to pass on what he had learned, to surpass his elders, to become a legend.
And he has. We don’t see the kids at the end of TLJ playing with an Obi-wan or Yoda doll, do we? And he certainly passed on the most important lessons he has learned. He has passed on the knowledge of what the Force truly is, divorced from its Jedi distortions, and he has passed on the knowledge of his failures, which is the theme of the film.
Yes, to those kids he’s Santa Clause. I’ll agree with you on that. I wish I could still believe in Santa Clause…
Luke has passed on another interpretation of the Force. Who’s to say that won’t be as much a distortion as the Jedi interpretation? Maybe not now, but in a 1,000 generations, or when another director at some point has a different idea of what it represents. This is the real lesson of TLJ, methinks.
From what I understand about what Luke says about the Force in TLJ: the Force doesn’t “belong” to any person or group of people (like the Jedi) - it’s not a power that just lets you move rocks and shit. It’s just everything and all the in between in the cosmos - the energy - and you can feel and perhaps harness it if you reach out deep enough into it.
It’s not too different from “it’s what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.”
What is different, is the idea that it’s always just naturally balanced. The existence of people simply harnessing one side or the other - the light or the dark - doesn’t imbalance it, or the person. Obi-Wan and Yoda believed Vader to be lost to the dark side and evil forever, and that the Jedi and the light side were synonymous. In their eyes, that’s why Luke had to defeat Vader, and restore the Jedi Order. Save the galaxy, bring balance.
But Luke has a “new” understanding of the Force, because of his experiences with himself, his father, and his nephew, that the Force isn’t some kind of constantly tipping scale, internally or externally. It wasn’t “too late” for his father to do good, and the inkling that it might have been “too late” for his nephew is just what solidified Kylo Ren’s rise. The dark side is only a cancer because of the philosophy that it is and can be. It parallels with how he comes to grips with himself and his failure. It isn’t so different from realizing that his failure doesn’t define him. And that you can always come back from it.
It’s not binary, and his arc in this movie just inspires that anyone can be a hero.
Whether or not another director challenges that, of course they can. But TLJ’s reading fits with the OT pretty well.
From what I understand about what Luke says about the force in TLJ: the Force doesn’t “belong” to any person or group of people (like the Jedi) - it’s not a power that just lets you move rocks and shit. It’s just everything and all the in between in the cosmos - the energy - and you can feel and perhaps harness if you reach out deep enough into it.
It’s not too different from “it’s what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.”
What is different, is the idea that it’s always just naturally balanced. The existence of people simply harnessing one side or the other - the light or the dark - doesn’t imbalance it, or the person. Obi-Wan and Yoda believed Vader to be lost to the dark side and evil forever, and that the Jedi and the light side were synonymous. In their eyes, that’s why Luke had to defeat Vader, and restore the Jedi Order. Save the galaxy, bring balance.
Luke has a “new” understanding of the Force, because of his experiences with himself, his father, and his nephew, that the Force isn’t some kind of constantly tipping scale, internally or externally. It wasn’t “too late” for his father to do good, and the inkling that it might have been “too late” for his nephew is just what solidified Kylo Ren’s rise. The dark side is only a cancer because of the philosophy that is and can be. It parallels with how he comes to grips with himself and his failure. It isn’t so different from realizing that his failure doesn’t define him. It’s not binary, and his arcy in this movie just inspires that anyone can be a hero.
I can understand that, but on one side of the scale are Luke’s personal experiences over his six decade life, on the other are a 1,000 generations worth of experiences. Isn’t the real vanity to presume the Jedi had it backwards for 1,000 generations? Shouldn’t Luke just have added another chapter to those ancient Jedi scriptures, rather than to write a new book?
Just because a group has been dicking around for 1,000 generations doesn’t mean their view is the be all end all.
"The Force is what gives the Jedi its power."
not “The Force is the Jedi’s power.”
From what I understand about what Luke says about the force in TLJ: the Force doesn’t “belong” to any person or group of people (like the Jedi) - it’s not a power that just lets you move rocks and shit. It’s just everything and all the in between in the cosmos - the energy - and you can feel and perhaps harness if you reach out deep enough into it.
It’s not too different from “it’s what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.”
What is different, is the idea that it’s always just naturally balanced. The existence of people simply harnessing one side or the other - the light or the dark - doesn’t imbalance it, or the person. Obi-Wan and Yoda believed Vader to be lost to the dark side and evil forever, and that the Jedi and the light side were synonymous. In their eyes, that’s why Luke had to defeat Vader, and restore the Jedi Order. Save the galaxy, bring balance.
Luke has a “new” understanding of the Force, because of his experiences with himself, his father, and his nephew, that the Force isn’t some kind of constantly tipping scale, internally or externally. It wasn’t “too late” for his father to do good, and the inkling that it might have been “too late” for his nephew is just what solidified Kylo Ren’s rise. The dark side is only a cancer because of the philosophy that is and can be. It parallels with how he comes to grips with himself and his failure. It isn’t so different from realizing that his failure doesn’t define him. It’s not binary, and his arcy in this movie just inspires that anyone can be a hero.
I can understand that, but on one side of the scale are Luke’s personal experiences over his six decade life, on the other are a 1,000 generations worth of experiences. Isn’t the real vanity to presume the Jedi had it backwards for 1,000 generations? Shouldn’t Luke just have added another chapter to those ancient Jedi scriptures, rather than to write a new book?
I assume that’s essentially what’s happening here. The Jedi aren’t ending. Rey is still out there with the books, there are inspired force sensitive kiddos in the galaxy, and Yoda talks to Luke about how masters are just “what they grow beyond” not “what they tell to buzz off to do a new thing.”
Just because a group has been dicking around for 1,000 generations doesn’t mean their view is the be all end all.
Yes, but that entire presumption is arrogance IMO. We’re speaking about a group who have maintained peace and justice for a 1,000 generations. If that’s dicking around, I think I have to come out of the closet.
"The Force is what gives the Jedi its power."
not “The Force is the Jedi’s power.”
As stated by one of those dicks.
From what I understand about what Luke says about the force in TLJ: the Force doesn’t “belong” to any person or group of people (like the Jedi) - it’s not a power that just lets you move rocks and shit. It’s just everything and all the in between in the cosmos - the energy - and you can feel and perhaps harness if you reach out deep enough into it.
It’s not too different from “it’s what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.”
What is different, is the idea that it’s always just naturally balanced. The existence of people simply harnessing one side or the other - the light or the dark - doesn’t imbalance it, or the person. Obi-Wan and Yoda believed Vader to be lost to the dark side and evil forever, and that the Jedi and the light side were synonymous. In their eyes, that’s why Luke had to defeat Vader, and restore the Jedi Order. Save the galaxy, bring balance.
Luke has a “new” understanding of the Force, because of his experiences with himself, his father, and his nephew, that the Force isn’t some kind of constantly tipping scale, internally or externally. It wasn’t “too late” for his father to do good, and the inkling that it might have been “too late” for his nephew is just what solidified Kylo Ren’s rise. The dark side is only a cancer because of the philosophy that is and can be. It parallels with how he comes to grips with himself and his failure. It isn’t so different from realizing that his failure doesn’t define him. It’s not binary, and his arcy in this movie just inspires that anyone can be a hero.
I can understand that, but on one side of the scale are Luke’s personal experiences over his six decade life, on the other are a 1,000 generations worth of experiences. Isn’t the real vanity to presume the Jedi had it backwards for 1,000 generations? Shouldn’t Luke just have added another chapter to those ancient Jedi scriptures, rather than to write a new book?
I assume that’s essentially what’s happening here. The Jedi aren’t ending. Rey is still out there with the books, there are inspired force sensitive kiddos in the galaxy, and Yoda talks to Luke about how masters are just “what they grow beyond” not “what they tell to buzz off to do a new thing.”
Growth is important, but too much focus on growth is misguided in my view, because a tree without roots is an unstable thing.
Yep. That’s why Kylo Ren is unstable and the bad guy. He wants to burn all those roots down.
Just because a group has been dicking around for 1,000 generations doesn’t mean their view is the be all end all.
Yes, but that entire presumption is arrogance IMO. We’re speaking about a group who have maintained peace and justice for a 1,000 generations. If that’s dicking around, I think I have to come out of the closet.
"The Force is what gives the Jedi its power."
not “The Force is the Jedi’s power.”As stated by one of those dicks.
Always missing the nuance. Just because the Jedi are good doesn’t mean the Jedi are always right. Just because the Jedi aren’t always right doesn’t mean the Jedi are always wrong.
When Luke says that saying the light belongs to the Jedi is vanity, he’s basically right, but he’s definitely up his own ass about it, butting in with his ideology when Rey is just trying to feel the force. It is a little arrogant of him, and it’s supposed to feel that way.
We shouldn’t blindly accept that the Jedi can do no wrong just because they’ve been around for 1,000 generations (especially when the PT shows they almost caused their own extinction). But just because we should have a critical eye with the Jedi doesn’t mean we should dismiss them outright, and the movie doesn’t do that.
“I will not be the last Jedi.” Don’t forget.
The force does not belong to the Jedi. It never has. The light does not belong to the Jedi, is never has and it never should. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t believe that the Jedi won’t fight for the light as long as they can.
Just because a group has been dicking around for 1,000 generations doesn’t mean their view is the be all end all.
Yes, but that entire presumption is arrogance IMO. We’re speaking about a group who have maintained peace and justice for a 1,000 generations. If that’s dicking around, I think I have to come out of the closet.
"The Force is what gives the Jedi its power."
not “The Force is the Jedi’s power.”As stated by one of those dicks.
Always missing the nuance. Just because the Jedi are good doesn’t mean the Jedi are always right. Just because the Jedi aren’t always right doesn’t mean the Jedi are always wrong.
When Luke says that saying the light belongs to the Jedi is vanity, he’s basically right, but he’s definitely up his own ass about it, butting in with his ideology when Rey is just trying to feel the force. It is a little arrogant of him, and it’s supposed to feel that way.
We shouldn’t blindly accept that the Jedi can do no wrong just because they’ve been around for 1,000 generations (especially when the PT shows they almost caused their own extinction). But just because we should have a critical eye with the Jedi doesn’t mean we should dismiss them outright, and the movie doesn’t do that.
“I will not be the last Jedi.” Don’t forget.
The force does not belong to the Jedi. It never has. The light does not belong to the Jedi, is never has and it never should. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t believe that the Jedi won’t fight for the light as long as they can.
I missed the nuance, because there was none in your OP, my friend. “1,000 generations of dicking around” is not a nuanced statement. Nuanced posts invite nuanced answers. Posts filled with hyperboles don’t.
caught a matinee showing on my day off today. 2D Imax. 4th time. Excellent movie.
I really can’t understand 90% of the criticisms in this thread. there are like 10% of them that i can understand, but the rest?
- I can understand not liking parts of the Canto Bight sequence
- I can understand wanting to know a bit more about snoke (curiosity and all that)
- I can understand being annoyed by Phasma, and bits of Finn as well
not much else though.
I actively avoided advertisements, fan speculation, marketing and the internet overall in relation to The Last Jedi, and just generally kept any hype for it on the down low, which may be why I had such a strong positive reaction to it. I think the last two points, to do with Snoke and Phasma, may partly be to do with hype and fan speculation. When you are convinced that Snoke is Darth whogivesaratsarse mentioned in a single line of dialogue from one of the prequels/comics/video games based on one thing from his physical appearance or that he is totally going to be the big ultimate bad guy, and he ends up a red herring you’re liable to be disappointed.
If there was one thing I WAS disappointed with it’s that Snoke wasn’t tiny, (you know, because Ren uses the mask as intimidation so Snoke could’ve used the big hologram as intimidation) but whatever. It’s not something I’ll lose sleep over. There are more important things in the world than a space movie.
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