An important question considering what one of the main issues is with the PT. Does anyone think the acting in the ST has been bad?
No.
NFBisms said:
Honestly? I wasn’t even talking really about what you’re ranting about here…I’m not ranting thank you.
NFBisms said:
…but if you want my thoughts, a lot of what you have to say - the entire premise of it, actually - is too presumptive about what TLJ was doing or trying to say. We don’t have a hard and fast answer about the nature of Rey’s or broom boy’s force sensitivity, so I personally haven’t really been touching that. I have my own ideas, but it’s just speculation and not anything the movies explicitly say at all. I don’t actually think TLJ was saying that the force works the way you described, though.Too presumptive? Snoke, the most powerful force user we’ve ever seen who’s character hints at having been around for a long, long time, probably influencing events before even the PT (we know at least long enough to see the rise and fall of the Empire) and who seems to have an immense knowledge of the force to the extent he can perform force-skype calls between other force users light years apart without them realising it, proclaims that as Kylo has been increasing in strength, so would his equal opponent in the light side appear. This was a clear explanation to the audience in response to all the flak Rey got in TFA for advancing in her force use too quickly and easily. Jake also only a little earlier in the movie explains the balance in the force which now in retrospect seems like it’s also priming us for the explanation Snoke gives. I’m only going off what TLJ has served up in regards to how the force apparently works now. Other people have also picked up on this, asking why then had Snoke’s opposite equal in the force not shown up from the light side? Maybe that is now Luke, but what about during the events of the OT?
NFBisms said:
But yes, if that (ending the Jedi = good idea) is what is supposedly going through Luke or Jake’s mind, it is at odds with the idea that the force naturally balances itself. The thing is - the movie goes out of it’s way to tell us Luke was wrong to do and think what he did. So. There you go. Again, though. I don’t think the force works the way you think it does.The movie would also have us think that Jake was that powerful and in touch with the force that he understands at its root level the source and relationship that the force shares with everything in the universe which causes him to reject the dogma of the Jedi teachings and enables him to astro project himself and objects even when he’s not present (the dice) across light years which is not that dissimilar to Snoke’s force-skype calls and speaks to the same level of mastery and knowledge of the force. So why would Luke not also know about this fact of the force self balancing? That his self sacrifice would essentially be for nothing, lending more weight to the fact the reasons for his actions are inherently flawed regardless of conflicts with his OT character and that he should have just gone to confront Kylo in person, if at the very least to still just buy the resistance fighters time to flee and then fade away into the force as Kylo is about to strike, like Obi-wan does as Vader strikes. They actually set this scene up just like that to create this expectation but because the entire movie is built on subverting expectations, at the very last second RJ yanks the rug with Jake instead pulling a matrix move and shortly after is revealed to be an astro projection. Then he fades away into the force anyway as a double subvert.
NFBisms said:
There’s nothing to prove definitively that it’s random magic.No there’s nothing 100% definitive but there’s not much missing to make it so.
NFBisms said:
FWIW I personally think Lucasfilm not having an overarching plan for the trilogy is fine, because it ensured we got at least one actual movie and not just run-of-mill product flicks. I liked that Johnson was able to imprint more of himself onto TLJ and that it was allowed to be more of a character study than a “can’t you wait for even more SW buy your tickets now1!1!” kind of movie. I know a lot of people wanted something else than what we got, but characters/themes are right up my alley, and I’m ok with it.In regards to an overarching plan - I’m fine for directors to take trilogy movies in unexpected ways but they still need to maintain some logical connection to the main story arcs it is part of and stay within the rules already established by previous movies or at most, expand upon them. Not fundamentally change them.
Also when I go to see a SW movie, I’d like to see a SW movie - not a RJ imprinted fan film of SW.
.Val
I don’t know what to tell you, I just didn’t get any of that from the movie. Sorry. xP
Or at least, we know too little about what’s going on for me personally to make any statements or judgements about it. We know absolutely nothing about Snoke to say where he came from. And what I got out of the whole balance thing is that balance between dark and light happens naturally in , well, nature. Saying that “darkness rises and light to meet it” was like cheekily saying “survival of the fittest.” A fact of nature and animals (but about the nature of the force) applied to human infrastructure as an idiom, not exposition about how the force works. Where there’s villain, someone will always try to be the hero. The force doesn’t “belong to anyone” as Luke says in this movie, just people harnessing that naturally balanced energy field. It doesn’t randomly just “appear” in people to balance things out; there isn’t enough for me to assume that’s what’s going on.
I apologize for saying you were ranting, you just responded to my post about something else entirely with a huge wall of text. It seemed like you had this whole thing prepared and just used my post as a way to put it out there. Which is fine.
An important question considering what one of the main issues is with the PT. Does anyone think the acting in the ST has been bad?
I haven’t really heard any complaining on that front. Which is what frustrates me about posts giving it a 0 rating or calling it a fan film. Don’t like it, fine. Extreme hyperbole, not fine.
An important question considering what one of the main issues is with the PT. Does anyone think the acting in the ST has been bad?
Not really. People pick on the acting in the OT as not very good. I think you can find moments where the dialogue wasn’t always sold very well (here and in the OT, and certainly the PT). I think that has more to do with the writing than the actors. I posted a few pages back about one of Hammill’s line that wasn’t sold very well, much as Hammill gave it his all.
The blue elephant in the room.
I do not understand the comparisons people are making to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Yes, I know Disney owns both Marvel and LFL. But I have only seen a few Marvel superhero movies (I liked them) and I don’t understand what they have in common with The Last Jedi or possible Star Wars films going forward.
Will someone please explain what the MCU has to do with Star Wars and/or why that’s bad?
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
I do not understand the comparisons people are making to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Yes, I know Disney owns both Marvel and LFL. But I have only seen a few Marvel superhero movies and I don’t understand what they have in common with The Last Jedi or possible Star Wars films going forward.
Someone please explain what the MCU has to do with Star Wars and/or why that’s bad?
To be fair, I brought up Disney’s 2011 Winnie the Pooh movie as a point of comparison instead. Some see a similar style of humor, interjecting awkward one liners into intense moments. I think that humor is problematic, but it is distracting to talk about the MCU as if it matters for arguing that the humor is bad here. I see a possible super hero trope at work here but I’m withholding judgment: where a villain arises essentially as a response to the existence of the hero (we did see that debate sort of in Captain America Civil War, and we’ve seen it in the DC universe).
Edit: As for whether any of this is bad is in the eye of the beholder.
The blue elephant in the room.
Will someone please explain what the MCU has to do with Star Wars and/or why that’s bad?
Marvel Studios movies have jokes, Star Wars has jokes. So they’re identical.
I see a possible super hero trope at work here but I’m withholding judgment: where a villain arises essentially as a response to the existence of the hero (we did see that debate sort of in Captain America Civil War, and we’ve seen it in the DC universe).
Actually, Snoke outright says the reverse: that the hero arose essentially as a response to the existence of a villain. So yes. But why? Why does it matter whether that’s a trope of MCU?
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
I see a possible super hero trope at work here but I’m withholding judgment: where a villain arises essentially as a response to the existence of the hero (we did see that debate sort of in Captain America Civil War, and we’ve seen it in the DC universe).
Actually, Snoke outright says the reverse: that the hero arose essentially as a response to the existence of a villain.
It’s the opposite! As the RLM guys would say, “very cool.” Less facetiously: that’s what I’m talking about but it’s the same idea. I’m withholding judgment on whether I like where they seem to be going with this whole “balance of the Force” stuff. I didn’t like that aspect of the PT (about the need for “balance”) but I’ll await the EIX.
The blue elephant in the room.
I think disliking TLJ and not thinking its direction was worth taking is totally valid. Those against it and its Luke are only judging it in the context of their own personal perceptions of what the franchise has been to them and should continue being. There’s probably something to be said - positive or negative - about how Johnson opted to double down on a specific interpretation of the world, rather than keep it broad enough for everyone to appreciate.
No, that’s not quite right. We are judging it in context of what has come before. Meaning, what has already been developed over an entire trilogy concerning the character of Luke. Luke was “the new hope”. The whole point of the original trilogy was that good can overcome evil, primarily by taking the high ground, being patient, facing ones fears, sacrificing self, and ultimately by redemption. Against all advice and conventional wisdom, Luke persisted in his mission to save his father, and therefore destroy the Sith. He proved that he was right, and he succeeded, sacrificing himself in the process. (He didn’t actually end up dying, but he was willing to do that and nearly did). Same thing for running across the galaxy to save his friends.
But suddenly, with no real transition, here’s Luke abandoning his friends (and his own family!) when they’re struggling in a fighting retreat against the new bad guys, and on top of it he even tries to kill his own nephew, in his sleep, because he sensed darkness within him. Darkness…? Within a young Skywalker…? Say it ain’t so!
…um…Luke, have you completely forgotten everything you’ve done, seen, and learned…? Did Palpatine’s lighting assault actually fry your brain?
In no way does this make any sense at all, and goes against everything Lucas and company worked hard to develop in the entire OT. (I know, “forget the past! Sever all ties to what came before!” No, it doesn’t work that way.) So yes, with respect, we’re stuck in our established perceptions of who Luke is and should be. Maybe, as I said, if there was some transition that shows us why Luke would veer so far off course (it won’t be sudden because radical changes like that are a process), then maybe it could be accepted. But as it is, it makes no sense at all. Even the Prequel Trilogy took three films to show a slow corruption of Anakin, and his ultimate fall.
I think disliking TLJ and not thinking its direction was worth taking is totally valid. Those against it and its Luke are only judging it in the context of their own personal perceptions of what the franchise has been to them and should continue being. There’s probably something to be said - positive or negative - about how Johnson opted to double down on a specific interpretation of the world, rather than keep it broad enough for everyone to appreciate.
No, that’s not quite right. We are judging it in context of what has come before. Meaning, what has already been developed over an entire trilogy concerning the character of Luke. Luke was “the new hope”. The whole point of the original trilogy was that good can overcome evil, primarily by taking the high ground, being patient, facing ones fears, sacrificing self, and ultimately by redemption. Against all advice and conventional wisdom, Luke persisted in his mission to save his father, and therefore destroy the Sith. He proved that he was right, and he succeeded, sacrificing himself in the process. (He didn’t actually end up dying, but he was willing to do that and nearly did). Same thing for running across the galaxy to save his friends.
But suddenly, with no real transition, here’s Luke abandoning his friends (and his own family!) when they’re struggling in a fighting retreat against the new bad guys, and on top of it he even tries to kill his own nephew, in his sleep, because he sensed darkness within him. Darkness…? Within a young Skywalker…? Say it ain’t so!
…um…Luke, have you completely forgotten everything you’ve done, seen, and learned…? Did Palpatine’s lighting assault actually fry your brain?
In no way does this make any sense at all, and goes against everything Lucas and company worked hard to develop in the entire OT. So yes, with respect, we’re stuck in our established perceptions of who Luke is and should be. Maybe, as I said, if there was some transition that shows us why Luke would veer so far off course (it won’t be sudden because radical changes like that are a process), then maybe it could be accepted. But as it is, it makes no sense at all. Even the Prequel Trilogy took three films to show a slow corruption of Anakin, and his ultimate fall.
So, there’s been a lot of discussion about this already, and I don’t want this thread to keep going in circles, so I’ll just link to posts I’ve made before about how I personally feel about it:
http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1152347
http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1152366
This is ok for me actually because DrDre just dropped our discussion after my last post, so it’d be nice to continue it with someone else.
Basically, the fact that he went through all of that - had that entire arc in the OT - is why it’s as big of a failure as it is. Anything less than Luke doing something against the ideals he spent so long developing would make the failure less pertinent. If you feel let down and disappointed in where Luke starts in this movie, to me, that’s the point. That’s how Luke feels about himself. After everything he’s been through… how could he? He then stops seeing himself as the hero he was. Maybe even as the friend, uncle, and brother that he was.
So, there’s been a lot of discussion about this already, and I don’t want this thread to keep going in circles, so I’ll just link to posts I’ve made before about how I personally feel about it:
http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1152347
http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1152366This is ok for me actually because DrDre just dropped our discussion after my last post, so it’d be nice to continue it with someone else.
Yean no doubt it’s been beaten to death. Thanks for the links. I look forward to further back-and-forth!
if Ren was more observant and could use his eyes I expect he would’ve noticed that the lightsaber luke was using in his force projection was the same as the lightsaber him and rey split in half.
Ah 77, my favourite year even if i wasn’t alive
Racer Cool, NFBisms’s bolded sentence encapsulates everything you write.
You’re just reexplaining the way you view Star Wars and what you like about it. Believe me, I understand the, but-it’s-inconsistent argument. I think “dissonant” best describes what you (me, and many others) see.
There are many here who feel TLJ not is not inconsistent and explain their reasoning. But they can also accept, as NFBism seems to, that there is a dissonance. And some will like that dissonance.
The blue elephant in the room.
And to those that say that part of the backlash against TLJ has nothing to do with racist/ misogynistic/hompophobic feelings in the SW community, you only have to see this one post on facebook and read the comments:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1682570385096504&set=gm.531837527203014&type=3&theater&ifg=1
And that is just ONE post. I’m seeing shit like this all the time. It’s starting to flood the net now. My Youtube channel got spammed with this type of crap and its all over facebook. Comments galore about how Kennedy is pushing a female agenda and making all the males into pussys, pushing forced diversity just for the Asian market, that they didn’t need all this shit in the OT and the prequels did a proper job at showing what the races really are like, how Rey should have been a guy and it would have made her being so powerful believable because women are weaker than men, and it goes on, but there is so much that i would never repeat.
Yes, its fine that people don’t like this movie, but you cannot deny that a large section think they are on a crusade against anything that isn’t white powerful and male. It’s gotten a lot worse since a certain person was elected as now they think their beliefs are accepted. It just makes me sick what the fandom has become.
The internet has a bit of everything for everyone - both good an bad. Funny enough my youtube channels have never brought anything like this up, but likely because I would ignore it if it did. I believe Facebook also tracks what you have read and brings you more of the same assuming that is what you like to read.
I know there is much more being writing about how positive diversity is in the new SW films and the comments you are reading are on the fringe.
Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.
“The Rebellion is reborn today.”
The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.
Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.
Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.
Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.
If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.
First of all, the FO does not control the galaxy yet. They are in the process of picking up the pieces during the course of TLJ, that is why the quest for Luke is so dire (Rey states this outright in the film). Their ruling style is irrelevant. They are a fascist regime that favors the wealthy and corrupt. The only way the gain power is by leveling whole communities. The goal is to stop them before they can take full control.
And the allies didn’t answer because “the spark has gone out.” Luke reignited the spark. That’s literally the whole point of the climax.
According to the info from the film, the FO will take full control in weeks. That seems a very short time frame for our miniscule group of rebels.
But don’t you understand that it’s not just the “minuscule” group anymore by the end because of Luke?
Rebellions require organisation, a base of operations, personel, extensive training, equipment, and financial resources to support all of the previous. Boys with brooms ain’t gonna cut it. That’s an other thing TLJ threw out of the window, a sense of realism in conflicts, and a sense of scale and time. The FO almost instanteneously wiped out the New Republic at the start of FO, and now the Rebellion has to be rebuild from scratch, much like at the end of ROTS. It took the Alliance two decades to build their organisation between the PT and the OT, but I’m sure by episode IX there will be a full fledged Rebel Alliance ready to resume control of the galaxy, where if the film adhered to previous Star Wars continuity, Rey should be looking for the next new hope.
This conversation is literally going in circles.
So here’s what I said a few posts ago:
Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.
For one the idea that Luke inspired a significant number of star systems to rise up against the FO is an assumption. Most star systems are probably too afraid to act, or even be associated with the Resistance. Inspiration isn’t going to protect them from the FO’s acts of retalliation, should they discover a star system is supporting the Reistance. Luke’s bold gesture may ahve inspired children, but in the grand scheme of things, it has achieved nothing of military value. The FO is as strong as ever, and will be consolidating their power, while the Resistance is decimated to the point, that they have no personal, funds, and equipment.
Secondly, even if several systems were inspired, they can’t openly support the new rebellion. Just like after the rise of the Empire a rebellion will have to be organized out of whole cloth. From the ROTS book and deleted scenes, we know that the first seeds of rebellion were sown the moment Palpatine introduced his new Empire. These were some powerful and influencial people, backed by some powerful and influential systems, but it took them twenty years to fully form the Alliance, and to become a significant threat to the Empire’s power structure. Like I said, if ep. IX adheres to Star Wars continuity (which it won’t), it would take up to two decades to reform a full fledged Alliance, in which case Rey would not be the next Luke, but the next Obi-Wan.
I think you’re making the mistake of assuming things that ought not be assumed.
Luke in ROTJ puts down his lightsaber to face the emperor - the darkest man in the universe.
Luke in TLJ takes out his lightsaber and considers murdering his nephew in his sleep because he MAY turn to the dark side.
sounds like the same dude to me.
You’re missing the key context in ROTJ — Luke almost considers killing Vader which would complete his turn to the darkness.
Yes and likewise killing your nephew in his sleep would turn you to the darkside. That is why it makes no sense that he would considering doing it.
It’s the old “is it better to kill one person to save countless lives?” argument…so how would it not make sense for him to even consider it?
Becuase the future is not certain and luke knows this.
I think disliking TLJ and not thinking its direction was worth taking is totally valid. Those against it and its Luke are only judging it in the context of their own personal perceptions of what the franchise has been to them and should continue being. There’s probably something to be said - positive or negative - about how Johnson opted to double down on a specific interpretation of the world, rather than keep it broad enough for everyone to appreciate.
No, that’s not quite right. We are judging it in context of what has come before. Meaning, what has already been developed over an entire trilogy concerning the character of Luke. Luke was “the new hope”. The whole point of the original trilogy was that good can overcome evil, primarily by taking the high ground, being patient, facing ones fears, sacrificing self, and ultimately by redemption. Against all advice and conventional wisdom, Luke persisted in his mission to save his father, and therefore destroy the Sith. He proved that he was right, and he succeeded, sacrificing himself in the process. (He didn’t actually end up dying, but he was willing to do that and nearly did). Same thing for running across the galaxy to save his friends.
But suddenly, with no real transition, here’s Luke abandoning his friends (and his own family!) when they’re struggling in a fighting retreat against the new bad guys, and on top of it he even tries to kill his own nephew, in his sleep, because he sensed darkness within him. Darkness…? Within a young Skywalker…? Say it ain’t so!
…um…Luke, have you completely forgotten everything you’ve done, seen, and learned…? Did Palpatine’s lighting assault actually fry your brain?
In no way does this make any sense at all, and goes against everything Lucas and company worked hard to develop in the entire OT. So yes, with respect, we’re stuck in our established perceptions of who Luke is and should be. Maybe, as I said, if there was some transition that shows us why Luke would veer so far off course (it won’t be sudden because radical changes like that are a process), then maybe it could be accepted. But as it is, it makes no sense at all. Even the Prequel Trilogy took three films to show a slow corruption of Anakin, and his ultimate fall.
This times 12 parsecs!
And to those that say that part of the backlash against TLJ has nothing to do with racist/ misogynistic/hompophobic feelings in the SW community, you only have to see this one post on facebook and read the comments:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1682570385096504&set=gm.531837527203014&type=3&theater&ifg=1
And that is just ONE post. I’m seeing shit like this all the time. It’s starting to flood the net now. My Youtube channel got spammed with this type of crap and its all over facebook. Comments galore about how Kennedy is pushing a female agenda and making all the males into pussys, pushing forced diversity just for the Asian market, that they didn’t need all this shit in the OT and the prequels did a proper job at showing what the races really are like, how Rey should have been a guy and it would have made her being so powerful believable because women are weaker than men, and it goes on, but there is so much that i would never repeat.
Yes, its fine that people don’t like this movie, but you cannot deny that a large section think they are on a crusade against anything that isn’t white powerful and male. It’s gotten a lot worse since a certain person was elected as now they think their beliefs are accepted. It just makes me sick what the fandom has become.
The internet has a bit of everything for everyone - both good an bad. Funny enough my youtube channels have never brought anything like this up, but likely because I would ignore it if it did. I believe Facebook also tracks what you have read and brings you more of the same assuming that is what you like to read.
I know there is much more being writing about how positive diversity is in the new SW films and the comments you are reading are on the fringe.
Yeah, I really ignore all that stuff. There is a proper place and way to talk about the marketing/sociopolitical aspects of movie making. I don’t think that place is here. I think it best we turn away from the topic.
The blue elephant in the room.
You do make a good point.
I don’t know what Yoda’s story is, but Obi Wan was not just hiding. He was protecting the last hope the Jedi had. The son of Anakin Skywalker.
You do make a good point.
I don’t know what Yoda’s story is, but Obi Wan was not just hiding. He was protecting the last hope the Jedi had. The son of Anakin Skywalker.
I believe Yoda had to make\had a connection to qui gonn. But with luke he may have been their in the end but a lot could’ve been prevented if him and other jedi stop going into exile! From their point of view I can understand why they enter exile but maybe try and undo your failure.
Ah 77, my favourite year even if i wasn’t alive
The worst part about rebutting nitpickers is that you have to ‘become one’.
Nitpicker: “Luke would never have turned his back on the world. I hate TLJ!”
Me: “But Yoda turned his back on the world.”
Uh-oh wait… does that mean I now have to hate ESB?! Dang!
The worst part about rebutting nitpickers is that you have to ‘become one’.
Nitpicker: “Luke would never have turned his back on the world. I hate TLJ!”
Me: “But Yoda turned his back on the world.”
Uh-oh wait… does that mean I now have to hate ESB?! Dang!
When you said “nitpick” I though you meant something like “there was no lightsaber-on-lighstber action” or “why not use droids to blast jump to hyperspace through every obstacle” not something like “I don’t buy Luke’s characterization.”
The blue elephant in the room.
Nitpick, complain, whine, whinge… throw toys out of the pram! However you want to word it, there’s an awful lot of it going on.
It comes down to people complaining that there is a bad thing in the Sequel Trilogy, and you hold up the mirror and say well look, that same bad thing happened in the Original Trilogy.
Nitpick, complain, whine, whinge… throw toys out of the pram! However you want to word it, there’s an awful lot of it going on.
It comes down to people complaining that there is a bad thing in the Sequel Trilogy, and you hold up the mirror and say well look, that same bad thing happened in the Original Trilogy.
If only you knew the power of the Dark Side.
What you miss in your response is that Yoda≠Luke.
The blue elephant in the room.
