The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 109

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

I never said I thought they were going to sleep. I do not think they were going to sleep.

Sorry, it was Mrebo who said it.

So if you don’t think they’re choking, what’s your alternate explanation?

for years I just though he used a mind trick maybe combined with force push to get them to back off.

Ok so that’s clearly not the case.

clearly not case?

Warbler said:

Collipso said:

It’s so weird to me that people see Luke vs. Guards as something other than a force choke.

I wonder if part of it could be that for years, I could only watch it on VHS in pan and scan. Letterboxing just wasn’t done in 1983. The guards putting their hands on their necks might have been cut out of the frame. I only saw the widescreen version once in 1983 and then pan and scan for years until the SE came out in the theaters.

I know this is ridiculous (and off-topic) but I recently bought the early 90s VHS trilogy on ebay. As lame as the format is, there’s something so beautifully nostalgic about watching them in this format again after so many years. I tried to digitise them but can’t get past the copy-protection…

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Collipso said:

It’s so weird to me that people see Luke vs. Guards as something other than a force choke.

I wonder if part of it could be that for years, I could only watch it on VHS in pan and scan. Letterboxing just wasn’t done in 1983. The guards putting their hands on their necks might have been cut out of the frame. I only saw the widescreen version once in 1983 and then pan and scan for years until the SE came out in the theaters.

I can’t confirm how much the P&S VHS cut off but there’s also the choking noises they make.

which obviously for years I didn’t think were choking noises.

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

That’s obviously not what I’ve been saying. They ultimately go to sleep. I don’t think it’s super important what Luke is doing there, though I understand some of you read all kinds of foreshadowing into it. If we got answers from the people playing the GGs that they were being choked, okay. But a split second halting pig noise and hands going to the chest/neck with a vague hand gesture isn’t so obviously choking. The fleeting moment doesn’t seem to have meant to carry the import some attach anyway.

So wait, what are you saying then? It’s not obvious to me at all.

I thought you said Luke did a mind trick to make them go to sleep.

The way I’ve viewed the scene, as have others notwithstanding your disbelief, is that Luke used his powers to cause them to lower their weapons, step away and then fall into sleep against the wall. I never gave it all kinds of thought about the precise mechanics used. I do know that if you construct a scene of somebody choking someone it would probably be the way described in the novel, and maybe have Luke’s hand closing like Vader’s. Again, I can say it is possible that he was doing some choking. In watching the scene, the fleeting gestures and noises (from pig people composed of seemingly cumbersome costumes) isn’t so totally obviously choking.

I give up.

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

That’s obviously not what I’ve been saying. They ultimately go to sleep. I don’t think it’s super important what Luke is doing there, though I understand some of you read all kinds of foreshadowing into it. If we got answers from the people playing the GGs that they were being choked, okay. But a split second halting pig noise and hands going to the chest/neck with a vague hand gesture isn’t so obviously choking. The fleeting moment doesn’t seem to have meant to carry the import some attach anyway.

So wait, what are you saying then? It’s not obvious to me at all.

I thought you said Luke did a mind trick to make them go to sleep.

The way I’ve viewed the scene, as have others notwithstanding your disbelief, is that Luke used his powers to cause them to lower their weapons, step away and then fall into sleep against the wall. I never gave it all kinds of thought about the precise mechanics used. I do know that if you construct a scene of somebody choking someone it would probably be the way described in the novel, and maybe have Luke’s hand closing like Vader’s. Again, I can say it is possible that he was doing some choking. In watching the scene, the fleeting gestures and noises (from pig people composed of seemingly cumbersome costumes) isn’t so totally obviously choking.

I give up.

what is with your attitude in this thread?

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

That’s obviously not what I’ve been saying. They ultimately go to sleep. I don’t think it’s super important what Luke is doing there, though I understand some of you read all kinds of foreshadowing into it. If we got answers from the people playing the GGs that they were being choked, okay. But a split second halting pig noise and hands going to the chest/neck with a vague hand gesture isn’t so obviously choking. The fleeting moment doesn’t seem to have meant to carry the import some attach anyway.

So wait, what are you saying then? It’s not obvious to me at all.

I thought you said Luke did a mind trick to make them go to sleep.

The way I’ve viewed the scene, as have others notwithstanding your disbelief, is that Luke used his powers to cause them to lower their weapons, step away and then fall into sleep against the wall. I never gave it all kinds of thought about the precise mechanics used. I do know that if you construct a scene of somebody choking someone it would probably be the way described in the novel, and maybe have Luke’s hand closing like Vader’s. Again, I can say it is possible that he was doing some choking. In watching the scene, the fleeting gestures and noises (from pig people composed of seemingly cumbersome costumes) isn’t so totally obviously choking.

I give up.

what is with your attitude in this thread?

It’s half me (again, it’s like you’ve just met me) and it’s half this thread (which is completely baffling on several fronts).

Mielr said:

Warbler said:

which obviously for years I didn’t think were choking noises.

Someone check the closed-captioning to see if it says: “(CHOKING NOISES)” 😉

It actually says LOVESTRUCK NOISES. So as someone said earlier, the guards are just overcome by Luke’s handsomeness.

Shopping Maul said:

I always though he was Force-choking them. I thought this, and the black outfit, were Lucas’ way of foreshadowing the possibility that Luke could go either way Force-wise.

Yup, that was pretty much the point of the movie. I’m amazed that people thought otherwise.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

1. She did not beat Luke in that duel

So, Luke wasn’t put on his back with Rey grabbing and pointing a lightsaber at him? I think she had the high ground, a sure win in the Star Wars universe since 2005. :p

They were in a stick duel, which Luke won because he knocked hers out of her hand. Taking out the lightsaber was cheating, of course he fell back because all he had was a stick, I don’t see how that could be construed as her winning.

2. She didn’t “save” Ren, she just helped him

She helped him, such that the guard wouldn’t kill Ren, ergo it makes sense to conclude she saved him.

She just gave him the saber, he saved himself. This just shows them working as a team - using this to suggest she is more powerful than him is pretty silly.

3. We didn’t actually see her lift the rocks, so we don’t know how “easy” it was

They didn’t show any strain on her face, like for example with Yoda in AOTC, or Luke in TESB. Therefore it makes sense to assume it was easier for her than either of those characters. Also, Luke wasn’t able to perform such an act after being trained by Yoda, straining to keep a few rocks afloat during the training sequence.

Yoda makes it clear that Luke could lift the x-wing if he had the right mindset. This isn’t like training to lift weights or being at a high level in a video game to do a certain power. It’s a matter of tapping properly into your potential.

I have problems with this scene myself but I don’t see anything wrong with the simple fact of her having the ability to lift rocks.

No one tell them that Vader didn’t just make Needa take a little nap.

DominicCobb said:

No one tell them that Vader didn’t just make Needa take a little nap.

Anchorhead said:

Damn, nearly did a spit-take laughing at that! 😃

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

1. She did not beat Luke in that duel

So, Luke wasn’t put on his back with Rey grabbing and pointing a lightsaber at him? I think she had the high ground, a sure win in the Star Wars universe since 2005. :p

They were in a stick duel, which Luke won because he knocked hers out of her hand. Taking out the lightsaber was cheating, of course he fell back because all he had was a stick, I don’t see how that could be construed as her winning.

2. She didn’t “save” Ren, she just helped him

She helped him, such that the guard wouldn’t kill Ren, ergo it makes sense to conclude she saved him.

She just gave him the saber, he saved himself. This just shows them working as a team - using this to suggest she is more powerful than him is pretty silly.

3. We didn’t actually see her lift the rocks, so we don’t know how “easy” it was

They didn’t show any strain on her face, like for example with Yoda in AOTC, or Luke in TESB. Therefore it makes sense to assume it was easier for her than either of those characters. Also, Luke wasn’t able to perform such an act after being trained by Yoda, straining to keep a few rocks afloat during the training sequence.

Yoda makes it clear that Luke could lift the x-wing if he had the right mindset. This isn’t like training to lift weights or being at a high level in a video game to do a certain power. It’s a matter of tapping properly into your potential.

I have problems with this scene myself but I don’t see anything wrong with the simple fact of her having the ability to lift rocks.

I don’t think that Luke would’ve been able to lift the X-Wing if he had the right mindset, as if his mindset was the only thing stopping him from being able to do so. I think it was more of a test from Yoda to see if he would give up or not. (I do realize I’m probably pushing it a little bit)

I always thought he had to get more in tune with the force and that that was like learning to play an instrument, getting to a point where you basically have mastered it.

That’s one of the reasons why I think time is required for one to improve, but not necessarily a teacher to oversee it all. That’s why Luke’s character is believable to me and Rey’s isn’t.

I must say though, you guys are somewhat convincing me that she isn’t as unrealistic as I thought.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

1. She did not beat Luke in that duel

So, Luke wasn’t put on his back with Rey grabbing and pointing a lightsaber at him? I think she had the high ground, a sure win in the Star Wars universe since 2005. :p

They were in a stick duel, which Luke won because he knocked hers out of her hand. Taking out the lightsaber was cheating, of course he fell back because all he had was a stick, I don’t see how that could be construed as her winning.

Winning a battle is not about playing fair. That’s called sport. If Rey had the intention of killing Luke, he would be a Force ghost. Therefore, she won the fight. She cheated, and she, a complete novice, beat a Jedi Master.

2. She didn’t “save” Ren, she just helped him

She helped him, such that the guard wouldn’t kill Ren, ergo it makes sense to conclude she saved him.

She just gave him the saber, he saved himself. This just shows them working as a team - using this to suggest she is more powerful than him is pretty silly.

There’s nothing in that scene, that suggests she is less powerful than Kylo. Unlike Kylo, she’s able to not get herself into a jam while fighting the guards, suggestung she’s actually more competent. It is not Rey who needs help, which would have been appropriate, since she’s far less experienced, but it’s Kylo. Had she not helped Kylo, he would be in serious trouble.

3. We didn’t actually see her lift the rocks, so we don’t know how “easy” it was

They didn’t show any strain on her face, like for example with Yoda in AOTC, or Luke in TESB. Therefore it makes sense to assume it was easier for her than either of those characters. Also, Luke wasn’t able to perform such an act after being trained by Yoda, straining to keep a few rocks afloat during the training sequence.

Yoda makes it clear that Luke could lift the x-wing if he had the right mindset. This isn’t like training to lift weights or being at a high level in a video game to do a certain power. It’s a matter of tapping properly into your potential.

I have problems with this scene myself but I don’t see anything wrong with the simple fact of her having the ability to lift rocks.

Considering that she’s been able to do all this Jedi stuff with zero effort, this lifting rocks thing is just the cherry on the cake for me. It contrasts strongly with the Luke lifting the X-wing scene, with the film seemingly suggesting Rey’s just better than Luke at everything, despite not recieving any training, or studying the Force herself. She just magically has these powers. That makes her a bland character for me. It’s not enough for her to be talented like Luke, the next new hope, she needs to be Luke on steroids.

SilverWook said:

Mielr said:

Warbler said:

which obviously for years I didn’t think were choking noises.

Someone check the closed-captioning to see if it says: “(CHOKING NOISES)” 😉

Hot damn! I was thinking that just as I saw your post! Get out of my mind! :p

Anyway, here’s the scene in question.
https://youtu.be/LLbO16m3nNI?t=1m9s

The top comment is “Luke force choking…” lol.

Edit: simply by the look on his face I think one can assume he’s force choking the guards.

SilverWook said:
I still don’t get why people have issues with Dexter’s diner. We had a sleazy bar in the first film. They probably have fast food in the GFFA too. Sentient beings like to go out to eat, no matter what galaxy they’re in.

It’s because Mos Eisley Cantina wasn’t like an obnoxious nostalgia bar for a period in Earth history with matching Earth robot accents. I could be wrong! Maybe it was all an elaborate Wild West fan club.

Thanks for posting that Wook, I’ll admit I’ve been going off memory this whole time…glad to see my memory was correct!

I don’t see how anyone is questioning it’s a force choke (that yes, renders them unconscious at the end).

Are there any examples of mind tricks in the OT that are done silently? I don’t remember any.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

It seems to me that the standard approach on this site is to claim that the other persons opinion is unjustifiable while the opinions of the current poster are correct.
Then, sit back and allow the mob mentality to kick in.

nhoj3 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

It seems to me that the standard approach on this site is to claim that the other persons opinion is unjustifiable while the opinions of the current poster are correct.
Then, sit back and allow the mob mentality to kick in.

Um…did you actually read the conversation you quoted?