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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 101

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yotsuya said:

So, a couple of things about Rey. One, TLJ just continues the way her character started in TFA. If you watch both closely, you will find that everything she does she picks up from Kylo Ren. Everything she does, he does around her first. And as for her raw power, we got a very good answer for that from Snoke. When Kylo brought Rey before him he said that he’d told Kylo that as he grew stronger his opposite in the light would rise, but Snoke thought it would be Skywalker. So we have a third generation Skywalker who has turned to darkness and to balance that out, his equal in the light has appeared. That is the answer to why things seem to come so easy for her. But while the force seems to come easy for her, she needs a mentor to guide her. Han is dead. Luke refused. Her parents were drunks and are dead. Rey is completely different from Luke. Unlike him who was pretty whiny to start out with, she doesn’t complain much and her life on Jakku taught her the disciple that Yoda tried to teach Luke. But when you look at the duration of Luke’s training, he was with Ben for a few hours in hyperspace. Three years later he could pull a light saber to him and hit targets with incredible accuracy. After he trains with Yoda, we do not have proof that he can lift an X-wing yet, but he flies off with his training incomplete to helps his friends and gets his hand cut off. A year later, with no additional training, he frees Han, turns himself over to the Empire, faces Vader, taps into the raw power of the force (seemingly the dark side from how he was goaded into an emotional response by Vader) and defeats Vader - with no additional formal training than he had the last time they faced.

So, no, the Star Wars universe does not demand formal training to use the force. Anakin could pod-race at 9 using skills normally found in trained Jedi. It was raw talent. Luke always doubted and he had trouble learning. Rey had the discipline of a hard life and the guidance of Kylo Ren (remember that nice lesson he gave her during their lightsaber duel on Starkiller Base?). So TLJ is not doing anything different with Rey than Abrams did. Her journey remains the same. Huge raw power and no guidance and she is on a quest for guidance. And the explanation for her power was provided. And her parentage is not very different from Anakin’s. His mother was a slave and his father a mystery (or the force itself). Rey was sold by her parents for drinking money and they died in the Jakku desert. She is the force’s answer to Kylo Ren. The question is what is their purpose, she and Kylo. Their stories are entwined and both have a struggle, just not with the force.

George Lucas:

“The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

These are the rules of the Star Wars universe. You don’t just get the Force and it takes many, many years of studying to master it. TLJ breaks those rules. Anakin’s talent to be able to see things before they happen was presented in TPM as some sort of precursor to becoming a Jedi, an indication of great Force potential. Anakin still had to go to school to learn Jedi mind tricks, levetation, lightsaber skills, etc. As far as Luke goes. Luke spent three years between ANH and TESB honing his skills, and then again in the year between TESB and ROTJ. As Lucas states you can do it on your own, but it takes many years of studying. Training with Yoda sped up that process for Luke.

Learning the Force is like a walking a tightrope. It takes many years to master it, to be able to stay on the rope under changing conditions, and to instinctively react to those changing conditions. What you would have us believe is, that Rey saw Kylo walk a tightrope, and she was almost instantly able to do it herself, and walk it better than someone who studied it for years, someone like Luke in TESB. That’s just not believable, at least to me. IMO it’s a blatant disregard for how the Force works, and undermines the themes of the previous six movies, where becoming a Jedi demanded serious dedication, and where it was not easy to fight the temptation of the dark side, and stay on the path of the righteous. These powers were a representative of a higher state of being, and now they’ve just become super powers and Rey some sort of MCU super hero.

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I saw it.
It’s a real mess.
I guess every flaw has been rolled over on the previous pages but the biggest problem for me is I felt no sense of engagement (maybe a bit with the Rey/Ren story thread). The plot had no forward momentum.
The characters learned nothing inspirational. It’s really badly edited, very jumpy.
It’s as flat and dull as any of the prequels. In fact I felt much more invested in what was going on watching ROTS than I did watching this thing.
Maybe after three decades of abuse it’s time to divorce myself from Star Wars.
I think I may have finally got too old to care about it.
Flying Frozen Leia and Crazy Ghost Yoda Puppet were so bizarre I thought I was watching something RLM put together.

Laura Dern’s hair was nice though.
Funny how with the amount of destruction caused by two ships colliding at hyperspeed nobody seemed to think about doing that during other battles or designing a hyperdrive torpedo that would have the same effect.

If our mistakes are our best teachers it’s taught me not to get too hung up over these things.
I used to love you Star Wars.
You filled my heart with wonder and filled my house with junk.
Now it’s time to say
goodbye… for a couple of years… probably.

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DrDre said:

George Lucas:

“The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

These are the rules of the Star Wars universe. You don’t just get the Force and it takes many, many years of studying to master it. TLJ breaks those rules.

George broke his own rules when he started the prequels. The rules changed from “anyone who studied hard could learn it” to " only a select few, which the Jedi identify at a young age, can use the force".

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA

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DrDre said:
These are the rules of the Star Wars universe.

There are no rules - more like guidelines!

Each movie is its own individual thing. Each movie needs to tell its own fairy tale in isolation. The director and the writer need that freedom of expression.

We’ve had the Star Wars ‘man on a mission’ movie, and in days to come we may well have the Star Wars ‘western’, the Star Wars ‘gangster movie’, etc

The fans that don’t enjoy The Last Jedi seem to have a problem with grasping this. They don’t like the creative freedom, which is an essential part of movie making. They want ‘rules’, they don’t want guidelines. But that would be a stagnant environment for creativity, a walled garden where the same elements are recycled over and over.

Let’s look again with an open mind at the original three movies, and realise that despite the Special Edition’s attempt to ‘homogenise’ them and unify the logo design, the poster art, and the fx… that they are not the same. Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, and Return Of The Jedi are three VERY different films, in every measurable way.

The Kubrickian Star Wars, the lush humanist romance of Empire Strikes Back, and the Roger Moore era Bond big set pieces and broad gags of Jedi.

So I would say to Star Wars fans… allow difference. Embrace it. Loosen up about rules. Do not fear change. Allow each new director their creative vision. And you might just find yourself enjoying the ride!

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Warbler said:
You don’t just become a Jedi without training.

She may be a nobody who has a strong feel of the Force. There isn’t any indication she has a desire to become a Jedi. She says specifically that she’s there to find out what her role is in the story she saw in her flashback.

Luke also makes a point of informing her that the Jedi don’t have some sort of special right to the Force. Hopefully she’s Rey Random on all levels. No familial connection, no faded robe hoodie Jedi. We’ve had 40 years of that.

Forum Moderator
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In Return Of The Jedi, the teeniest, tiniest ship in the Rebel Fleet, an A-Wing takes out a Super Star Destroyer with a ramming manoeuvre.

In The Last Jedi, the mightiest, largest ship in the Rebel Fleet, the Calamari Cruiser takes out a Super Star Destroyer with a ramming manoeuvre.

But, it’s The Last Jedi that people have a problem with?

For those saying its a plot hole and why don’t the rebels hyperspace all their smaller ships in to Star Destroyers, well when Vader arrives at the end of Rogue One we see how well that turns out for the smaller ships!

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for practically every complaint a user makes, there are loads of very plausible explanations. as said ^^^, try to be the kind of person that is open to new things, instead of the kind of person who immediately reacts negatively to new things.

here is how your thinking about that hyperspace maneuver could go:

Sees awesome scene in theater, complete silence, then awesome conclusive boom:

  • holy crap that was cool!
  • huh, they took out so many freakin ships!
  • i wonder what makes this unique, haven’t seen it before, and will we keep seeing it used as a tactic now?
  • well, one factor that let this happen was Hux being an idiot and ignoring what the ship was doing, despite his officer brining the turning ship to his attention, maybe most people catch the long buildup that this type of attack would take, and Hux just didn’t.
  • it would also be suicide, most people try to avoid that (could use a droid i guess)
  • hm, they also had an extremely massive ship that they used as the weapon, i am sure mass has something to do with it. mass times velocity and all that. massive ships are both expensive, and well, large. I can see people not using weapons that are as big as their own ship, seems like that would be impractical.
  • yeah, those are all plenty of reasons to just enjoy the most freaking cool thing ever.

or

Sees awesome scene in theater, complete silence, then awesome conclusive boom:

  • holy crap that was cool!
  • this hasn’t been done before…
  • yeah, so many silly things that these movie people never think through, but i know better, i am a fan.
  • i will now deride everything else about this movie

Please take my word that i edited that last part several times before posting the first time, and i tried to remove anything inflammatory from it, such as some adjectives i had before.

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To counter balance some of the youtuber reviews of The Last Jedi that people have posted in this thread, let’s take a look at some actual reviews from professionals who watch movies, critique and analyse them for a living…

“Rian Johnson’s middle chapter in the current Star Wars trilogy is the epic you’ve been looking for. Capped by Mark Hamill in the performance of his career, it points the way ahead to a next generation of skywalkers - and, thrillingly, to a new hope.” Rolling Stone

“Rian Johnson, writer and director of this film, took my Star Wars reveries and served them back to me with vast improvements.” The Guardian

“It is the best and most innovative Star Wars film to come along in a long time and you would think that this would inspire celebration in the streets among longtime fans of the franchise.” filmcritic.com

“As the third act approaches, the crescendo of air-punching interludes accelerates, eliciting gasps, cheers and OMG whoops from an audience whom Johnson treats with respect, affection, and evident admiration.” Mark Kermode

Rotten Tomatoes 91% Fresh (positive rating).
Metacritic 86% (positive rating).

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adywan said:

DrDre said:

George Lucas:

“The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

These are the rules of the Star Wars universe. You don’t just get the Force and it takes many, many years of studying to master it. TLJ breaks those rules.

George broke his own rules when he started the prequels. The rules changed from “anyone who studied hard could learn it” to " only a select few, which the Jedi identify at a young age, can use the force".

Lucas never stated only a select few can use the Force and neither did the PT. The PT showed the Jedi to be elitist, only selecting the most talented prospects for joining their club. This however does not preclude anyone from learning about the Force, and using it.

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Matt.F said:

DrDre said:
These are the rules of the Star Wars universe.

There are no rules - more like guidelines!

Each movie is its own individual thing. Each movie needs to tell its own fairy tale in isolation. The director and the writer need that freedom of expression.

We’ve had the Star Wars ‘man on a mission’ movie, and in days to come we may well have the Star Wars ‘western’, the Star Wars ‘gangster movie’, etc

The fans that don’t enjoy The Last Jedi seem to have a problem with grasping this. They don’t like the creative freedom, which is an essential part of movie making. They want ‘rules’, they don’t want guidelines. But that would be a stagnant environment for creativity, a walled garden where the same elements are recycled over and over.

Let’s look again with an open mind at the original three movies, and realise that despite the Special Edition’s attempt to ‘homogenise’ them and unify the logo design, the poster art, and the fx… that they are not the same. Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, and Return Of The Jedi are three VERY different films, in every measurable way.

The Kubrickian Star Wars, the lush humanist romance of Empire Strikes Back, and the Roger Moore era Bond big set pieces and broad gags of Jedi.

So I would say to Star Wars fans… allow difference. Embrace it. Loosen up about rules. Do not fear change. Allow each new director their creative vision. And you might just find yourself enjoying the ride!

I’m fine with difference, but I dislike inconcistency especially if it undermines the main themes underlying the previous films. If one movie says Superman can fly, and then the next film says Superman can fly except on Tuesdays, even though we saw him flying on Tuesdays in the last one, that’s an inconsistency, and not the sort of creativity I’m looking for. Star Wars is big universe, that has existed for four decades, and for most of that time most of the material released have been guided by a set of rules created by it’s creator George Lucas. Sure, you can expand on it, or bent the rules a bit, but to just ignore them, and do your own thing? That’s not Star Wars to me. The themes that you need to work hard to achieve a state of enlightenment, to be able to master these powers, to resist the temptation of the dark side, are essential parts of Star Wars for me. Without those it becomes an empty spectacle, where the only things that define Star Wars are Empire versus rebels, a bunch of cool ships, and some super powered individuals wielding lightsabers. I’ll pass on that.

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Yes, and of course the theme that you need to work hard to achieve a state of enlightenment and resist the dark side is deeply explored in The Last Jedi, and is far more compelling than “you’re born with Midichlorians”. George set the ‘rules’ that you adhere to and then he changed them, so I am certain that you must have absolutely loved The Last Jedi, as it elegantly sidesteps the mistake of Midichlorians and rather than a scientific, measurable Force we return to a purely spiritual one.

We had inconcistency with the prequels and now we have gone full circle and returned consistency with the original trilogy. Rian Johnson pulled off a masterstroke and I cant wait to see his next trilogy. I believe it will be incredible.

I know others see it differently, and are walking away from Star Wars fandom, and that is fine. We all like what we like. That’s the simple truth.

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Matt.F said:

Yes, and of course the theme that you need to work hard to achieve a state of enlightenment and resist the dark side is deeply explored in The Last Jedi, and is far more compelling than “you’re born with Midichlorians”.

It’s not explored, as the film’s hero Rey doesn’t struggle with the dark side at all. It’s mentioned in a single scene, related to the cave, and then brushed aside. She’s the perfect heroine making all the right decisions, mastering these powers like the flick of a switch. There’s no hard work. She enters the enemies stronghold after two incomplete lessons from Luke, and returns without so much as a scratch. Compare this to Luke hanging broken below Cloud City hoping to be rescued, and you’ll understand why Rey’s such a shallow character to me.

Conversly, Kylo Ren is just presented as a bad egg. No attempt is made for explaining his motivations for joining the dark side. Snoke had won his heart, and that’s the end of it. There’s no exploration of Ben’s relationship with his parents. There’s no temptation. We get some cosplay for the benefit of the viewer to make Kylo seem conflicted, and more sympathetic to Rey, but this turns out to be a ruse set up by Snoke, and ultimately inconsequential, because Rey remains the perfect hero she was at the start of the film, and Kylo remains an evil man-child.

George set the ‘rules’ that you adhere to and then he changed them, so I am certain that you must have absolutely loved The Last Jedi, as it elegantly sidesteps the mistake of Midichlorians and rather than a scientific, measurable Force we return to a purely spiritual one.

I actually didn’t like the Midichlorians, because I didn’t need a scientific explanation for a spiritual phenomenon. TLJ sidesteps the Midichlorians and just about anything else related to mastering the Force. Rey’s like a super hero now, the Star Wars universe Wonder Woman, having discovered insta-Force.

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I disagree Dre, the movie shows several moments where Rey is associated with the dark side and even moments where Kylo is with the light. It also goes deeper into nuance by having the mentor figure grapple also with his past failure and his present opportunity.

It is all there on screen and in the script, for those who choose to be selective and not accept it because it doesn’t fit into your ‘head canon’… well no one can do anything about that other than themselves.

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Matt.F said:

I disagree Dre, the movie shows several moments where Rey is associated with the dark side…

Please point those moments out to me, because I didn’t see any serious struggle or temptation, and there certainly were no serious consequences for Rey, as there were for Luke.

and even moments where Kylo is with the light. It also goes deeper into nuance by having the mentor figure grapple also with his past failure and his present opportunity.

The moments with Kylo were mostly undercut by Snoke’s admission, that he was manipulating Rey, as such we don’t know what was real, and what wasn’t. The single most powerful moment was, when Kylo couldn’t kill his mother, but as with Rey it was without consequence, as the theme wasn’t revisited in the film. Leia just accepted her son was lost without so much as a confrontation, killing an interesting story thread about Ben Solo’s relationship with his parents, a relationship that had led to particide. However, like so many set ups of TFA RJ decided to mostly ignore that.

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And this Rey ‘Mary Sue’ thing is just so tedious, and whether or not you have any pro-male agenda behind it - I’m not saying you have - but it smacks of selectiveness and decades of women not being allowed to do what men can do. I’m a father of two young girls, and I’m involved in the science and engineering sector which desperately needs more women to engage with and fulfil their potential (grade for grade girls score higher in sciences than boys), so this is something I feel strongly about.

Anakin had zero training before his pod race “I’m the only human who can do it”. He uses the Force and wins the race.

Luke had maybe 20 to 30 minutes training on the Falcon. He uses the Force and blows up the Death Star.

Snoke even says in the script that the ‘light’ has manifested in Rey as a counter balance to Kylo growing in power. So it is there in the script and it is consistent enough at least for me to go along with and not cry foul.

So please don’t come out with comments like Rey has “insta-force”, as for me it comes off as selective and patronising.

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I took my little cousin to see TLJ last night. I offered to take him to the multiplex a half hour away, but he wanted to go to the little single screen theater in town. I hate that place so much. The seats are uncomfortable, so I was in pain at the end. The movie started 20 minutes late. The left side of the screen was tinted green, like when Luke’s saber was on it had no white core. On top of it the image was so dim and blurry, so you know these bastards were trying to save money with the projection bulbs. It was like a fucking VHS tape blown up on screen. If he hadn’t been there, I would have walked out. I didn’t enjoy the movie at all, I wanted it to end.

Going to try to go see it in a decent theater again. I really want to to wash the taste of this awful showing out of my memory.

It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher

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Matt.F said:

And this Rey ‘Mary Sue’ thing is just so tedious, and whether or not you have any pro-male agenda behind it - I’m not saying you have - but it smacks of selectiveness and decades of women not being allowed to do what men can do. I’m a father of two young girls, and I’m involved in the science and engineering sector which desperately needs more women to engage with and fulfil their potential (grade for grade girls score higher in sciences than boys), so this is something I feel strongly about.

Anakin had zero training before his pod race “I’m the only human who can do it”. He uses the Force and wins the race.

Luke had maybe 1 to 2 hours training on the Falcon. He uses the Force and blows up the Death Star.

Snoke even says in the script that the ‘light’ has manifested in Rey as a counter balance to Kylo growing in power. So it is there in the script and it is consistent enough at least for me to go along with and not cry foul.

So please don’t come out with comments like Rey has “insta-force”, as for me it comes off as selective and patronising.

To be clear the same “Gary-Sue” criticism was made about child Anakin. I think the Mary-Sue thing is misunderstood. It not about putting women down, it is actually about wanting them to have real Characters, rather than idealized ones. It would be progress for women if Mary-Sue characters did not exist - Driver got to play a complex character, Ridley got to play a one-dimensional character. Who got the better role?

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Matt.F said:

And this Rey ‘Mary Sue’ thing is just so tedious, and whether or not you have any pro-male agenda behind it - I’m not saying you have - but it smacks of selectiveness and decades of women not being allowed to do what men can do. I’m a father of two young girls, and I’m involved in the science and engineering sector which desperately needs more women to engage with and fulfil their potential (grade for grade girls score higher in sciences than boys), so this is something I feel strongly about.

Anakin had no training before his pod race “I’m the only human who can do it”.

Luke had maybe 3 to 4 days training on Dagobah, same as Rey has on Ach-To.

Snoke even says in the script that the ‘light’ has manifested in Rey as a counter balance to Kylo growing in power. So it is there in the script and it is consistent enough at least for me to go along with and not cry foul.

So please don’t come out with comments like Rey has “insta-force”, as for me it comes off as selective and patronising.

Please stop with this anti-feminist nonsense.

Luke went through multiple scenes of training, and his progression as a character and knowledge of the Force was developed over years in in-universe time. Luke went through hell and back. He was challenged spiritually and physically. He learned the father he had worshipped all his life was an evil monster. He was completely humiliated by Vader, and lost his hand. He even attempted suicide to avoid capture, and needed to be rescued by his friends.

Rey has faced non of the challenges Luke has. She doesn’t struggle with the Force, and has won any challenge put before her. She faced both Kylo and Snoke, and walked out without so much as a scratch. She went from a nobody to super hero in a matter of in-universe days. There’s just no comparison. I don’t care that she’s a girl. Good for her. I liked her in TFA, even if she was a bit too good and perfect, and I expected her to go through some serious struggle in this one. Alas it was not to be, and she’s turned out to be the most shallow, and underdeveloped Star Wars protagonist in four decades, in my opinion of course.

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I notice you didn’t compare Rey with Anakin winning the podrace (no training), or with Luke using the Force to make a shot “that’s one in a million” (no training) as that would rather count against your Mary Sue argument.

Rather you go on about Luke having had a hard life - in fact Rey has had a far harder life than Luke. She raised herself as a scavenger and lived alone in a shanty. Luke had a relatively secure home life and upbringing. When Rey does finally make a connection to a Father figure that she has desperately wanted she sees him killed before her eyes… I’d say that qualifies.

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Matt.F said:

I notice you didn’t compare Rey with Anakin winning the podrace (no training), or with Luke using the Force to make a shot “that’s one in a million” (no training) as that would rather count against your Mary Sue argument.

Anakin was too perfect in TPM. I’ll agree with you on that, but he went through intensive training over the course of a decade between TPM and AOTC, and he got his share of challenges, and losses. He lost his mother, who was tortured to death, a fight against a Sith Lord, and his arm, and unlike Rey these things had enormous consequences for his development as a character.

Luke did recieve training aboard the Millenium Falcon, so I don’t see your point. You might argue it was not enough to make that shot, but it’s the difference between seeing Luke fail in using the Force and then succeed under the guidance of Obi-Wan. Luke was even guided by Obi-Wan when he made that shot. Rey had zero training or guidance by a Force user, none, and she still succeeded. That’s the difference.

Rather you go on about Luke having had a hard life - in fact Rey has had a far harder life than Luke. She raised herself as a scavenger and lived alone in a shanty. Luke had a relatively secure home life and upbringing. When Rey does finally make a connection to a Father figure that she has desperately wanted she sees him killed before her eyes… I’d say that qualifies.

Yes, that all happened in TFA, a film that I liked very much, and made me look forward to TLJ.

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I don’t wanna get into the argument here, because I don’t care, but,

Matt.F said:

I notice you didn’t compare Rey with Anakin winning the podrace (no training)

Because nobody cares about the PT.

or with Luke using the Force to make a shot “that’s one in a million” (no training)

Little training, true, but he had Obi-Wan’s guidance while making the shot.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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Matt.F said:

I notice you didn’t compare Rey with Anakin winning the podrace (no training), or with Luke using the Force to make a shot “that’s one in a million” (no training) as that would rather count against your Mary Sue argument.

Rather you go on about Luke having had a hard life - in fact Rey has had a far harder life than Luke. She raised herself as a scavenger and lived alone in a shanty. Luke had a relatively secure home life and upbringing. When Rey does finally make a connection to a Father figure that she has desperately wanted she sees him killed before her eyes… I’d say that qualifies.

Yes.