The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 94

ray_afraid said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

can you point out which rule I violated that deserved you to threaten me? I read through them…
2. I didn’t attack anyone.

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

The people who defend these ST movies are no different than the people who defend the prequels. Mental gymnastics and totally ignoring the spirit of the original movies. But hey look it’s Darth Mual with his cool double bladed lightsaber. Er…I mean look it’s Porgs and Kylo Ren with a saber handle! It’s Star Wars duh!

That’s saying that the people who like this movie are stupid or lying to themselves. That’s a personal attack on that group.

Where did I say that? I said they are doing mental gymnastics with disingenuous arguments, one of which I cited. That meme (or whatever you call it) was not an honest rebuttal to the criticism that several posters share. I pointed out exactly why it wasn’t honest. That’s a problem? I suppose I could have qualified my statement and said “some people” as it’s not a criticism that applies to all people who like the movie. If so, sorry about that!

If people like a movie or don’t like a movie, cool. I think all opinions are valid. But if I see something I think is disingenuous or a poor/flawed argument I will point out the logical flaw if I can.

Oh my goodness, this thread is giving me such a headache right now.

dahmage said:

Oh my goodness, this thread is giving me such a headache right now.

Just now?

Gaffer Tape said:

Wow. I never would have guessed we’d be debating whether or not Luke choked the guards. It always seemed completely obvious to me that he was choking them. Funny how that works.

Honestly, Luke’s motivations seem extremely plausible by comparison.

Yes and yes.

dahmage said:

Oh my goodness, this thread is giving me such a headache right now.

Also yes.

DrDre said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

• Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
• Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
• Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
• Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
• Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
• Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
• Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
• It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
• Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

• Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
• New Republic controls most of the galaxy
• FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
• Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
• In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
• Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

This right here. I don’t see how people even compare the 2 situations. Obi-Wan and Yoda literally did all they could. Luke did nothing.

That’s so right. But I wonder why DrDre was disagreeing with Warbler. I was making the same point and he was agreeing with me (I thought?).

Sorry, I probably just misread the reply. I agree with you both.

No problem! All your posts have been great in this thread, well thought out and I’ve agreed with just about everything you’ve said!

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

The scene at the end of TFA is from Rey’s perspective. So it’s epic and momentous - here’s me offering this legendary lightsaber to this legendary person to ask him to save the galaxy. Whatever happens after that doesn’t change the emotion of that moment.

In TLJ, we get a twist on it by seeing how Luke really feels about the “legendary” label. And Luke talks about his feelings about being a legend later in the film - the label is a burden, it caused him great pressure and great shame - it is the reason he has brought himself into exile. In that moment, he’s thinking that that lightsaber brought him terrible emotional and physical pain (remember the last time he saw it?). He doesn’t respect the saber in the way Rey does, he rejects it. Tossing the saber instantly establishes Luke’s feelings about the Jedi and his legendary status (i.e. no thanks).

But that’s okay. That’s just where Luke is at the start of the film. It’s part of his journey here, to coming back around to understanding that he needs to pick up the saber and act once again, to be the legend the galaxy needs. This, by the way, is why he uses that blue saber at the end.

You do realize that if he simply tossed it to the side gently it would be much easier for people to accept it right? The problem is how he comically tossed the lightsaber over his shoulder. The execution was terrible for being the payoff of such a powerful scene in TFA. I, for example, waited 2 years to specifically watch that scene and BAM SNL material right there.

I don’t know what to say except I disagree. I think tossing it gently wouldn’t have the same impact. You need to have the whole throw it over the shoulder thing to show how big the gap is between what Rey wants and what Luke is willing to do at this point. If Luke just politely pushed her aside and said “no thanks,” then the conflict there wouldn’t be nearly as strong.

As for “SNL material”? I don’t even know what to say. It’s a funny scene, it made me laugh. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Just because there’s humor doesn’t make it “SNL,” especially if that humor is used to define who that character is in this moment.

Also the face Luke makes at the end of TFA makes no sense anymore.

I don’t really see how that’s the case.

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

oojason said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Possessed said:

This meme or whatever you call it is dumb. Obi-Wan didn’t tell Luke: “hey you’re Dad was an asshole and the Jedi deserve to die.” Yoda never told Luke: “there is no dark side or light side. the jedi were arrogant and wrong”.

The people who defend these ST movies are no different than the people who defend the prequels. Mental gymnastics and totally ignoring the spirit of the original movies. But hey look it’s Darth Mual with his cool double bladed lightsaber. Er…I mean look it’s Porgs and Kylo Ren with a saber handle! It’s Star Wars duh!

If that is your attitude - then why are you here? To bait or antaognise those on here that do like these films? If so your stay here is going to be a short one.

I can’t see any reason you would threaten me except you don’t like my point of view. I wasn’t aware that was against the rules.

Trolling/baiting other members isn’t looked upon so kindly here. And it’s clearly what you were doing:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

The people who defend these ST movies are no different than the people who defend the prequels… hey look it’s Darth Mual with his cool double bladed lightsaber. Er…I mean look it’s Porgs and Kylo Ren with a saber handle! It’s Star Wars duh!

Another criticism is the tonal problems. The prequels had the same problems with tone. Really not even considering the gravity of certain moments and jumping straight to buffoonery or bathroom jokes. There is a lot of that in TLJ and also talk about how bad the Jedi are.

Honestly this movie felt like an homage to the prequels and was even worse than them. TFA was at least much better.

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Another criticism is the tonal problems. The prequels had the same problems with tone. Really not even considering the gravity of certain moments and jumping straight to buffoonery or bathroom jokes. There is a lot of that in TLJ and also talk about how bad the Jedi are.

Honestly this movie felt like an homage to the prequels and was even worse than them. TFA was at least much better.

Just going to go ahead and share something i have been thinking lately. Have you noticed how with every new SW movie there seems to be a small contingent who say “At least X was better” where X is the film out right before this one? its a sliding window. First, TFA was bad, at least the prequels were better. Rogue One was bad, at least TFA was better. TLJ was bad, at least TFA/RO was better…

so there are at least some people who just struggle taking in new films… doesn’t make the new film bad.

dahmage said:

so there are at least some people who just struggle taking in new films

Or any films.

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Another criticism is the tonal problems. The prequels had the same problems with tone. Really not even considering the gravity of certain moments and jumping straight to buffoonery or bathroom jokes. There is a lot of that in TLJ and also talk about how bad the Jedi are.

Honestly this movie felt like an homage to the prequels and was even worse than them. TFA was at least much better.

The only reason jokes were a tonal problem in the PT was because they were aimed squarely at children, although they were not necessarily things children actually found funny. TLJ just makes normal jokes, and they’re funny jokes. PT jokes aren’t jokes, they’re Lucas’s approximation of jokes. So they’re not funny and don’t fit in at all.

dahmage said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Another criticism is the tonal problems. The prequels had the same problems with tone. Really not even considering the gravity of certain moments and jumping straight to buffoonery or bathroom jokes. There is a lot of that in TLJ and also talk about how bad the Jedi are.

Honestly this movie felt like an homage to the prequels and was even worse than them. TFA was at least much better.

Just going to go ahead and share something i have been thinking lately. Have you noticed how with every new SW movie there seems to be a small contingent who say “At least X was better” where X is the film out right before this one? its a sliding window. First, TFA was bad, at least the prequels were better. Rogue One was bad, at least TFA was better. TLJ was bad, at least TFA/RO was better…

so there are at least some people who just struggle taking in new films… doesn’t make the new film bad.

That could be the case but I never thought TFA was worse than the prequels. TLJ is though.

DominicCobb said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Another criticism is the tonal problems. The prequels had the same problems with tone. Really not even considering the gravity of certain moments and jumping straight to buffoonery or bathroom jokes. There is a lot of that in TLJ and also talk about how bad the Jedi are.

Honestly this movie felt like an homage to the prequels and was even worse than them. TFA was at least much better.

The only reason jokes were a tonal problem in the PT was because they were aimed squarely at children, although they were not necessarily things children actually found funny. TLJ just makes normal jokes, and they’re funny jokes. PT jokes aren’t jokes, they’re Lucas’s approximation of jokes. So they’re not funny and don’t fit in at all.

I disagree with this. Comedy and tone are different. Maybe they are sometimes related I guess. But comedy is more subjective. If you think something is funny who can argue you with you? For me, I didn’t find almost anything in this movie funny and it didn’t feel like Star Wars humor either. I’ve seen a lot of people agree.

But tone is more objective. It’s not really about whether something is aimed at children. RLM had some great examples in their prequel criticism videos. I wonder if they will do the same on this movie. It really did feel like watching Attack of the Clones to me.

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

The scene at the end of TFA is from Rey’s perspective. So it’s epic and momentous - here’s me offering this legendary lightsaber to this legendary person to ask him to save the galaxy. Whatever happens after that doesn’t change the emotion of that moment.

In TLJ, we get a twist on it by seeing how Luke really feels about the “legendary” label. And Luke talks about his feelings about being a legend later in the film - the label is a burden, it caused him great pressure and great shame - it is the reason he has brought himself into exile. In that moment, he’s thinking that that lightsaber brought him terrible emotional and physical pain (remember the last time he saw it?). He doesn’t respect the saber in the way Rey does, he rejects it. Tossing the saber instantly establishes Luke’s feelings about the Jedi and his legendary status (i.e. no thanks).

But that’s okay. That’s just where Luke is at the start of the film. It’s part of his journey here, to coming back around to understanding that he needs to pick up the saber and act once again, to be the legend the galaxy needs. This, by the way, is why he uses that blue saber at the end.

You do realize that if he simply tossed it to the side gently it would be much easier for people to accept it right? The problem is how he comically tossed the lightsaber over his shoulder. The execution was terrible for being the payoff of such a powerful scene in TFA. I, for example, waited 2 years to specifically watch that scene and BAM SNL material right there.

I don’t know what to say except I disagree. I think tossing it gently wouldn’t have the same impact. You need to have the whole throw it over the shoulder thing to show how big the gap is between what Rey wants and what Luke is willing to do at this point. If Luke just politely pushed her aside and said “no thanks,” then the conflict there wouldn’t be nearly as strong.

As for “SNL material”? I don’t even know what to say. It’s a funny scene, it made me laugh. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Just because there’s humor doesn’t make it “SNL,” especially if that humor is used to define who that character is in this moment.

I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree.

I also think the humor in TLJ functions as a sort of release valve for audience tension. Without the jokes the film would be exhausting.

joefavs said:

I also think the humor in TLJ functions as a sort of release valve for audience tension. Without the jokes the film would be exhausting.

yeah, this is true.

Gaffer Tape said:

Wow. I never would have guessed we’d be debating whether or not Luke choked the guards. It always seemed completely obvious to me that he was choking them. Funny how that works.

As for the comparison of Luke versus Ben and Yoda… honestly, the way we ultimately see it presented in the prequels makes it very difficult to swallow what they did, and I find it very difficult to defend it outside of, “We need to tie up loose ends and get everyone to where they are in the first movie.” Honestly, the concept would have worked much better with the earlier interpretations of the Sith as a large organization of anti-Jedi. Then, with Obi-Wan and Yoda being the only two against a huge force of Sith, it makes sense for them to flee for their lives. But with the whole rule of two, it makes no sense. I mean, from Ben’s point of view, he just killed one of the two, leaving only the Emperor, and yet right then is the moment he decides he has to get away? I mean, in the original trilogy, Obi-Wan has to use obfuscation just to get past the stormtroopers on the Death Star. But in the prequel context, the Emperor’s clone troopers, the only other means of enforcement he has besides Vader, are cut down like butter by Obi-Wan and Yoda. They’re no threat at all. So rather than team up against the Emperor or leading a rebellion… they just go into hiding, leaving everyone to suffer at the hands of Imperial tyranny.

Honestly, Luke’s motivations seem extremely plausible by comparison.

I agree. It’s also worth noting that at the time of ANH there was no ‘20 year plan’ to wait for the ‘Jedi twins’. There was no Yoda, no ‘sister’, no ‘rule of two’, and Vader was just a nasty guy who had killed Luke’s father. Luke wasn’t in hiding, and Obi Wan was simply a retired war veteran. So I don’t think it’s a worthy comparison given how ‘on the fly’ the whole thing was mapped out.

Personally I think the whole 20 year plan presented in ROTS was stupid. Vader should have been aware he had a son (with the second child born without his knowledge and taken by Bail Organa - maybe Mrs Organa’s own child died around the same time giving cover/validity to the ruse) and Owen Lars should’ve been the one to stubbornly insist Luke be raised as a Skywalker on Tatooine. Obi Wan would then retire nearby on the off chance that Vader may come to claim his son one day, and Yoda would wash his hands of the whole thing and head to Dagobah to live out his final days. You could have a scene where Yoda insists that Leia be trained as a potential Jedi and is at odds with Bail and Anakin’s wife who want her raised as a princess - thus giving credence to Yoda’s sudden ‘there is another’ brainwave in TESB which Kenobi doesn’t seem to be so privy to.

Sorry about the rambling reply…

DrDre said:

Sorry, I probably just misread the reply. I agree with you both.

No, Warbler first agreed with the meme, then subsequently agreed with Collipso who counter-argued the meme.

Shopping Maul said:
Personally I think the whole 20 year plan presented in ROTS was stupid.

Just about everything in the prequels was stupid! 😃

Especially retcons that contradicted the OT. 😦

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

DominicCobb said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Another criticism is the tonal problems. The prequels had the same problems with tone. Really not even considering the gravity of certain moments and jumping straight to buffoonery or bathroom jokes. There is a lot of that in TLJ and also talk about how bad the Jedi are.

Honestly this movie felt like an homage to the prequels and was even worse than them. TFA was at least much better.

The only reason jokes were a tonal problem in the PT was because they were aimed squarely at children, although they were not necessarily things children actually found funny. TLJ just makes normal jokes, and they’re funny jokes. PT jokes aren’t jokes, they’re Lucas’s approximation of jokes. So they’re not funny and don’t fit in at all.

I disagree with this. Comedy and tone are different. Maybe they are sometimes related I guess. But comedy is more subjective. If you think something is funny who can argue you with you? For me, I didn’t find almost anything in this movie funny and it didn’t feel like Star Wars humor either. I’ve seen a lot of people agree.

But tone is more objective. It’s not really about whether something is aimed at children. RLM had some great examples in their prequel criticism videos. I wonder if they will do the same on this movie. It really did feel like watching Attack of the Clones to me.

You misunderstand me a bit.

I think it is possible to achieve a proper tonal balance between drama and comedy. I believe TLJ achieves that balance (not just because the simple fact that the jokes are funny, but because they are well integrated and feel true to the characters and situations, which makes them funny). I do not think the PT does, because I believe the humor is forced in, almost an afterthought, designed to get kids to laugh. That is why the tonal mishaps take place.

joefavs said:

I also think the humor in TLJ functions as a sort of release valve for audience tension. Without the jokes the film would be exhausting.

Exactly.

nhoj3 said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

This meme or whatever you call it is dumb. Obi-Wan didn’t tell Luke: “hey you’re Dad was an asshole and the Jedi deserve to die.” Yoda never told Luke: “there is no dark side or light side. the jedi were arrogant and wrong”.

I also agree with this sentiment. A friend of mine sent that meme to me a few days ago, and while it has what Stephen Colbert would refer to as “truthiness” that might cause others to nod their head in agreement, it really doesn’t hold up under any scrutiny. Kenobi was acting as a watchful guardian, protecting a young boy from harm. Yoda was bidding his time, awaiting a new apprentice. Both were on the run from being butchered, having already lost all of their friends.

None of these circumstances are comparable to Luke.

also Obiwan and Yoda were in hiding from the Empire and Palpatine and Vader. The First Order isn’t the Empire, Snoke is not Palpatine and certainly Kilo Ren is not Vader. Also when Obiwan and Yoda went into hiding there was no rebellion going on. Finally when Obiwan heard Leia’s plea for help, he didn’t refuse.

joefavs said:

This is the first time in my 28 years that I’ve even seen it suggested that Luke could’ve been doing anything other than choking the guards. I had no idea there was any disagreement at all about that.

This is the first time in the 34 years since the movie came out that I have heard he was force choking the guards. I must have watched ROTJ millions of times and never got that idea.

dahmage said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Another criticism is the tonal problems. The prequels had the same problems with tone. Really not even considering the gravity of certain moments and jumping straight to buffoonery or bathroom jokes. There is a lot of that in TLJ and also talk about how bad the Jedi are.

Honestly this movie felt like an homage to the prequels and was even worse than them. TFA was at least much better.

Just going to go ahead and share something i have been thinking lately. Have you noticed how with every new SW movie there seems to be a small contingent who say “At least X was better” where X is the film out right before this one? its a sliding window. First, TFA was bad, at least the prequels were better. Rogue One was bad, at least TFA was better. TLJ was bad, at least TFA/RO was better…

so there are at least some people who just struggle taking in new films… doesn’t make the new film bad.

This is one thing I feel is going on. The new and different scares some. And I know there are a few people who didn’t like the direction TESB went and only accept the first movie. It also ties in to expectations. It is all fine and dandy to theorize what will happen in the next film, but ultimately we fans have no control over that. To expect them to do anything in the next film is setting the next film up for failure. TFA had fewer detractors because it didn’t do anything. It introduced new characters and set the stage without taking a single risk. TLJ takes risks and tells a story that sets up the end of the saga. There is no telling if Abrams will follow that ending (which was already written but due to Carrie Fisher’s death, has to be redone). Like TESB, this is a middle chapter. Like TESB, a lot of fans don’t like it (go read the fan reaction to TESB from 1980 - it has grown on many, including myself). Now TESB is considered the best of the saga. So initial reactions are not a good indicator of the quality of a film. Its saying power and how it furthers the story is what is the real indicator of quality.