The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 78

dahmage said:

Valheru_84 said:

Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

YouTube likes and dislikes are an indication of a good movie or a bad movie now? Ok.

Could be an indication of public opinion though, which is what he’s talking about, not the quality of the movie.

Exactly.

TV’s Frink said:

YouTube likes and dislikes are an indication of a good movie or a bad movie now? Ok.

I thought you were a bit more perceptive than this Frink, I’m not saying the likes vs dislikes is an indication of whether the movie is good or bad. I think it is a bad movie regardless, I was simply pointing to evidence that there is a significant number of people who are agreeing with such videos versus the people disliking it and therefore it’s not out of the question that the low Rotten Tomatoes audience score is legitimate.

ray_afraid said:

TV’s Frink said:

YouTube likes and dislikes are an indication of a good movie or a bad movie now? Ok.

Yeah, sheesh. What a weird thing to judge anything by.
And anybody who bothers clicking “dislike” on a YouTube video is either trolling or has psychological issues. I’m always laughing at “12 people actually took the time to say ‘nya!’ at an informative video that is exactly what it says it is.”

I thought better of you than this Ray. I click dislike on many videos that I don’t like or don’t agree with on some level that I feel warrants a dislike. So according to you I have psychological issues or I’m just out for a good trolling? Nice generalisation there mate.

.Val

I think you are forgetting that a lot of people would simply not watch the video. So of course you cannot take the ratio of likes and dislikes to mean anything other than that a small number of people who actually decided to watch the video didn’t like it.

Yes, the people that liked the movie and wouldn’t want to watch a negative review. What you are saying though is again making it as if I’m trying to use this to prove it wasn’t a good movie, where all I’m really saying is that the number of likes on these videos is proving that there is substance to the view that many people in fact do not like this movie. Which is pretty much what is being said everywhere now. The movie is dividing audiences, you either love it or you hate it.

What I don’t understand is how many people on here actually love / like it, as it’s Star Wars in look and sound but its heart has been scooped out and thrown in the trash, to be replaced with a shallow story and characters that don’t make sense, all mixed together with tone killing humour and SJW themes.

.Val

chyron8472 said:

This thread has turned into the “Hate on TLJ” Bandwagon thread.

How is this any different from the “I love TLJ” wagon? I honestly can’t see any wagons though, just people posting their views in a review and opinion thread 😉

YouTube likes and dislikes do not prove anything.

Just like selectively edited videos do not prove anything.

Something else I find funny or ironic: Luke is literally a shadow of himself fighting at the end of the movie.

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Something else I find funny or ironic: Luke is literally a shadow of himself fighting at the end of the movie.

That’s not how that word is supposed to be used!

TV’s Frink said:

Valheru_84 said:

I thought you were a bit more perceptive than this Frink, I’m not saying the likes vs dislikes is an indication of whether the movie is good or bad. I think it is a bad movie regardless, I was simply pointing to evidence that there is a significant number of people who are agreeing with such videos versus the people disliking it and therefore it’s not out of the question that the low Rotten Tomatoes audience score is legitimate.

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

YouTube likes and dislikes are an indication of a good movie or a bad movie now? Ok.

Could be an indication of public opinion though, which is what he’s talking about, not the quality of the movie.

Not general public, a specific subset.

How is that a proper response to my reply Frink? It doesn’t actually address the issue I raised with your reply.

Welcome back by the way 😃

.Val

Valheru_84 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Valheru_84 said:

I thought you were a bit more perceptive than this Frink, I’m not saying the likes vs dislikes is an indication of whether the movie is good or bad. I think it is a bad movie regardless, I was simply pointing to evidence that there is a significant number of people who are agreeing with such videos versus the people disliking it and therefore it’s not out of the question that the low Rotten Tomatoes audience score is legitimate.

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

YouTube likes and dislikes are an indication of a good movie or a bad movie now? Ok.

Could be an indication of public opinion though, which is what he’s talking about, not the quality of the movie.

Not general public, a specific subset.

How is that a proper response to my reply Frink? It doesn’t actually address the issue I raised with your reply.

TV’s Frink said:

YouTube likes and dislikes do not prove anything.

Just like selectively edited videos do not prove anything.

Anjohan said:

The Last Jedi has become bad because people can’t comprehend new directions for a 40-year old franchise. Get over it.

Episode IX WILL probably be predictable as fuck and all SW fans will rejoice.

Or you could get over people expressing their dislike for the movie. And if being predictable gave us TLJ, I’ll take predictable thanks! Not really but it feels like RJ took this as his personal mission when making TLJ and so the whole movie is built around “gotcha” expectation subverting moments.

TFA played it extremely safe in starting a new trilogy which is probably predictable in itself seeing what happened with the PT. TLJ was supposed to be the movie where it broke away to make new ground and take us into the future of SW. Well it did that but not before taking a shit on everything that came before it and while still borrowing A LOT from TESB and ROTJ, just without being so in your face obvious as TFA was.

TV’s Frink said:
I’m sorry, I just don’t see how this isn’t another one of those cases where the new movies are held to a completely different standard than the old movies.

Woaah what are you talking about there Frink. In the OT women weren’t military leaders, the Force powers didn’t change with each movie, actors never wanted their characters to go in a different direction than what they got, and more diversity wasn’t added in the 2nd part. It’s clearly totally different and ruins everything.

Is this too sarcastic or not enough? I can’t tell with some of the posts going on here lately.

Mocata said:

TV’s Frink said:
I’m sorry, I just don’t see how this isn’t another one of those cases where the new movies are held to a completely different standard than the old movies.

Woaah what are you talking about there Frink. In the OT women weren’t military leaders, the Force powers didn’t change with each movie, actors never wanted their characters to go in a different direction than what they got, and more diversity wasn’t added in the 2nd part. It’s clearly totally different and ruins everything.

Is this too sarcastic or not enough? I can’t tell with some of the posts going on here lately.

I think you just broke my brain.

Valheru_84 said:

but not before taking a shit on everything that came before it

Lol, the bad movie really hurt you didn’t it?

I just don’t understand why it bothers some of you guys so much. No one has to like this movie, but no one should take it so seriously either.

DrDre said:

I’ve been wondering about RJ’s vision for the Force. Some have argued, that anyone can be a Jedi now, that’s great! Looking at it more closely, I don’t think that’s really the case.

When Lucas created the original Star Wars, most people got the impression, that anyone can be a Jedi. You just have to study it, work hard, and there you go. Lucas himself held this view, as is evident from his 1977 definitions, that I posted earlier.

Then over the course of the OT genetics seemed to be introduced. Luke became part of a family line of powerful Jedi. The Force is strong in his family. This still doesn’t preclude anyone from becoming a Jedi. It just means some of us are more talented than others, just like in real life. Other explanations can be introduced for the Skywalker’s innate Force potential, but this one’s pretty logical, I think.

Then the PT came along, which showed the Jedi to be elitist. The PT never said, that the Force wasn’t available to everyone, it just said the Jedi only wanted the top of the class, so to speak. Many people understandably didn’t like this. I mean what about character? Wouldn’t you rather have a less talented Jedi with a good character, than a talented a*****e? Anyway, the Jedi were flawed. Doesn’t mean they were allways like this, just that they had evolved into this political elitist organisation.

So, what did RJ do? Did he go back to the 1977 concept of anyone who works hard at it, can be a Jedi? No, he didn’t. Rey just magically has these powers, and apparently so does the kid at the end of the film. No work required. It just awakes inside you. So, what if the Force doesn’t awake in Poe, or Finn, or some other random person?
Tough luck, I guess? Or can we expect the Force to be delivered to them as well? It got lost in the mail, or something. I think not. In short, he’s turned the Force into a lottery. Anyone can be a Jedi, if you’re one of the lucky few. I fail to see how that improves on Lucas’ original ideas, even the version of the PT, where despite the Jedi’s elitist views, anyone could theoretically become a Jedi.

I’ve been thinking about this and I wonder if this is what Snoke meant by “There has been an awakening”. I don’t think he was just referring to Rey. For some reason the force is becoming ultra potent in people for no known reason (likely because the force is already known to work in mysterious ways). That would have been an interesting direction to take the plot of TLJ in, but it was basically a sidenote with the kids and left half baked, vague and confusing as a result.

TV’s Frink said:

luckydube56 said:

Anjohan said:

The Last Jedi has become bad because people can’t comprehend new directions for a 40-year old franchise. Get over it.

Episode IX WILL probably be predictable as fuck and all SW fans will rejoice.

I’m lucky in that I can ignore TLJ and TFA in my own mental canon.

This right here is how you should handle these movies if you don’t like them, and I respect this completely. But I don’t think it’s luck, I think it’s just common sense…or at least that’s what it should be. Getting all pissed off because a later movie “ruined” an earlier movie is just really alien to me.

This is what I will do in the end as clearly the “new” SW is not for me. I’ll relegate myself to only ever watching the OT DSEs and on the odd occasion some fanedits of the PT. I enjoy R1 as well so it will remain but TFA is in the bin for me since I won’t be able to watch it without being reminded of what it now leads into (while not leading into it since RJ killed those arcs, only bringing the setting and characters across).

I don’t for a second think TLJ has ruined any earlier movies, Im just pissed of for what it does to SW for me and that it means the end of my saga.

.Val

TV’s Frink said:

Mocata said:

TV’s Frink said:
I’m sorry, I just don’t see how this isn’t another one of those cases where the new movies are held to a completely different standard than the old movies.

Woaah what are you talking about there Frink. In the OT women weren’t military leaders, the Force powers didn’t change with each movie, actors never wanted their characters to go in a different direction than what they got, and more diversity wasn’t added in the 2nd part. It’s clearly totally different and ruins everything.

Is this too sarcastic or not enough? I can’t tell with some of the posts going on here lately.

I think you just broke my brain.

So more sarcasm, got it.

Mithrandir said:

Perhaps it’s time to start a new thread, but I’d say this:

No matter how inwards you look, you still live in the company of people. And that people organise one way or other. Having a mass of people all looking inwards, doing their own and not looking to the sides it’s just another way of organising and perhaps an even more toxic one.

It’s back to natural state. A band of hunters and collectors. Nomads. A cannibalistic society with no apparent structure, but an invisible one. Because we can’t forget this is a product made by a company with funding purposes, not precisely a hippie cultural product.

About the ST: There’s no moral struggle. If Episode IX redeems Kylo as head of the First Order, then we’ll end up having a movie about a fair kingdom with a good fair emperor and everybody lived happy. Because TLJ already establishes that there’s not a hierarchy between moral-social structures: there’s darkness in rey, light in kylo, grey areas. No need of a dogma (only that not needing a dogma and praising gray is a dogma in itself: the sacred word of everything you do is good and acceptable), so just change the “inside”, the head of the regime and then magically the regime can start being good.

And that is dangerous. And yes, it’s not western, it’s oriental culture and thinking. But not because it’s chinese, but because the western corporations find that model a lot more profitable in this stage of social-mediated liquid society. The old fronteer of private and public spheres has been turned down and publicity reigns supreme. That’s Sparta and not Athens.

Individuality requires by definition the possibility of being developed, and it develops in time, like a culture (or agriculture). To have the possibility of individuality, there has to be a defined private sphere that allows that culture to grow in time, from past to future (education, family, etc.).

The overwhelming power of today’s public sphere undermines that possibility: the world is so connected that it leads to the illusion that everything happens here and now, as they made Yoda say in this movie, as if it was wisdom.

And what’s the basic permanent structure of private life in a society? Family, and lineage, not the mass but the clan. Lineage allows the individual to draw and recognize itself in a trajectory through time, even from and beyond its existence. Which doesn’t mean that lineage gives you privileges over the others, but to allows you to know your journey, and certainly conditions it to an extent.

Problem with family is that it is a structure, and as any structure, it implies some kind of oppression. As the jewish law states, the mother is evident, the father only can be supposed. That’s why traditional societies reacted by defining a role for the woman associated with the private sphere of the home. Family is the base of democracy, as was in Athens centuries ago: it was based on the relative oppresion and confinement of half the humanity to a strict and defined model of conduct.

Jeopardize those role models, and you’ll end up having no family. Without family, no identity. Without identity, a vacuum of sense or purpose. And without that, a new society based only in consumism. It’s not misoginy, it’s just reflecting on the reasons of traditional structures, and what their movement implies. Men will not occupy the private sphere. Have women abandon it, and you’ll end up with no public sphere whatsoever, and everyone just obbeying what some influencer says in twitter, instagram, youtube or whatever.

That’s why, below and below any politically correct speech, feminism as it is understood today which is as a total cultural struggle (that goes beyond fair and absolutely reasonable claims such as rebellion against harassment or difference in payment), is very, very useful to the corporations. And that is why it is very, very present in the corporations agenda. It’s the trojan horse through which tear down the only barreer left between the human person and the massive consumer.

And that is why femminism and this apparent oriental philosophy of not holding on, letting go and being passive go absolutely hand in hand and are all part of a same stage of modern capitalism advancing over the human being, when evil and good are no longer needed as concepts, nor men or women, nor family, nor identity, nor stability of any type. And yes, no more heroes please. Just be comfortable with the world we create for you because it is what it is.

Wow, great post but it paints a very bleak picture for humanity 😕

As I stated before I think TLJ is enjoyable as a stand alone film. It has some good scenes, but in my view it’s not really forging it’s own path. For all the shocks and twists it is content to rehash the Empire versus rebels dynamic, as if stuck in a time loop. Meanwhile we get alternate reality versions of the battle of Hoth, the Dagobah training sequence, and the throne room sequence. In many ways it’s a mishmash of the OT with a new coat of paint. However for me the most difficult aspect of the film is how it seems to actively attempt to diminish the characters, and themes of the Lucas era Star Wars, in order to further it’s own far more cynical agenda.

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:
Sorry Jason but I’m not buying his diplomatic talk over everything else he has already said about the matter on top of his reaction after his first viewing speaking volumes about his feelings on the matter. I think he’s dying to say what he really thinks about the whole matter but at the same time doesn’t want to jeopardise his role in IX by pissing off Disney.

This video pulls some of those comments together along with his post viewing reaction, though I wish it didn’t have the bleeding heart violin music over the top of it all.

https://youtu.be/UpWwp-oh4YA

.Val

Nothing more than another one of the same old videos that edit the interviews in an attempt to prove Mark hated it. Why don’t they just show the whole interviews? Oh yeh, that’s right, because it would go against what they are trying to prove.

Yes I’ve seen many such videos myself and closed them as a result. I understood that this video does that and knew I would get such a response upon posting it. I only posted it still as a summary of some of those comments that also included his reaction which there is no other version of that gives it a different skew. Ive seen many of those full interviews though and generally Mark just follows up with diplomatic comments. He apparently expressed many of his ideas about Luke to JJ who promptly ignored him, so by the time TLJ came around I think he was already resigned to the fact that Disney were going to do as they wanted with his character. This didn’t stop him from being shocked about what they’d written for Luke though and he tries to express his opinion in a way that still leaves him with a job. You can see in one interview Kathleen literally pull him up short in an attempt to enact some damage control over the picture Mark was painting at the time.

Mocata said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mocata said:

TV’s Frink said:
I’m sorry, I just don’t see how this isn’t another one of those cases where the new movies are held to a completely different standard than the old movies.

Woaah what are you talking about there Frink. In the OT women weren’t military leaders, the Force powers didn’t change with each movie, actors never wanted their characters to go in a different direction than what they got, and more diversity wasn’t added in the 2nd part. It’s clearly totally different and ruins everything.

Is this too sarcastic or not enough? I can’t tell with some of the posts going on here lately.

I think you just broke my brain.

So more sarcasm, got it.

Ok, I have no idea what you’re talking about now.

TV’s Frink said:

YouTube likes and dislikes do not prove anything.

Just like selectively edited videos do not prove anything.

At this stage I feel like you just don’t want them to prove anything. How can 10s of thousands of people liking videos that talk about disliking TLJ not mean that these same people also dislike the movie? It’s like saying the 67,000 people that have signed that petition doesn’t prove that 67,000 people dislike the movie? At this point it just feels like you simply don’t want to acknowledge that there is a large amount of genuine negativity towards the movie.

All I was initially trying to say is that I’ve seen enough signs everywhere to indicate there is a significant percentage of the audience that didn’t like the movie. With YouTube I was able to actually provide some numbers so it was the example I used. If you want to ignore that and live in a world where you think it’s just a few haters brewing up all this controversy then so be it.

You still haven’t directly answered my original post either that you wrongly attributed to me trying to somehow say this proved the movie was bad? And now that I’ve directly confronted you on the matter I get the feeling you’re going to start attacking me rather than just admitting you posted wrongly and moving on.

I get it that you liked the movie, that’s fine though I don’t understand how you do, much like you dont understand how I would place TLJ below the prequels. I’m not trying to change your mind on the movie, instead just pointing out not to discredit the fact there are many that dislike the movie and that there is evidence out there to support this if you are willing to see it.

.Val

Hamill on twitter

I regret voicing my doubts & insecurities in public.Creative differences are a common element of any project but usually remain private. All I wanted was to make good movie. I got more than that- @rianjohnson made an all-time GREAT one! #HumbledHamill

https://twitter.com/HamillHimself/status/945784443964309505?ref_src=twcamp^share|twsrc^m5|twgr^email|twcon^7046|twterm^3

Though of course he was forced by Disney to say this!

TV’s Frink said:

Valheru_84 said:

but not before taking a shit on everything that came before it

Lol, the bad movie really hurt you didn’t it?

I just don’t understand why it bothers some of you guys so much. No one has to like this movie, but no one should take it so seriously either.

Maybe because we haven’t had the chance for a good SW movie again until TFA which wasn’t great but was good enough to create expectations of a great movie in TLJ which for me was the complete opposite? TLJs core motive it to subvert expectations which is exactly what it did for me. My expectations were positive and I get a very negative experience. So I’m rightly pissed and expressing my feelings about it. Much like people who loved it are expressing their feelings about it.