The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 61

^^Yeah it feels like prequel mantra. That’s probably why I dislike this movie so much.

It really felt like watching Attack of the Clones. 😦

PETITION TO MAKE THE LAST JEDI AND THE PREQUELS NON-CANON

EDIT: PETITION TO MAKE THE LAST JEDI, THE PREQUELS, AND ROGUE ONE NON-CANON

NeverarGreat said:

Sorry to have to tell you this, but that stuff’s technically canon.

Everyone has their own canon. If something in Star Wars is fundamentally opposed to the spirit of the original movies, I consider it to be an usurper and illegitimate. YMMV

And my problems with the movie are a lot deeper than that. When it comes to the new characters like Rey, there is no character development. And the plot is nonsensical. And the villains are idiots. Then there are all of the sequences that remind me of the factory in Attack of the Clones. The Force Awakens, flawed as it is, was much better than this one, it was just awful to watch.

TLJ across the board moves the saga from simple good vs evil to much grayer territories. I like that a lot, I guess some don’t. Maybe that’s one of the big things causing the divide here.

adywan said:

Well the Jedi aren’t exactly without flaws in the OT. You get Obi-wan lying , and Yoda keeping his mouth shut, to Luke about his father because they needed him to defeat the empire. And , when Luke was rushing off to save his friends and ultimately confront vader, Obi-Wan told him that he wouldn’t interfere. The same person that was supposed to be more powerful than we could possibly imagine after being struck down. And then, When Luke was calling out to him to help, completely ignored him. And finally told him that if he didn’t go and face Vader again and kill him that the emperor had won. refused to even listen when Luke said there was still good in him. He just wanted Vader dead.

How are any of these flaws? Obi-wan didn’t lie so much as he obscured the truth to protect Luke. He and Yoda knew that Luke wasn’t ready for that information, it would have destroyed him and turned him to the dark side. Nothing the Jedi did in the original movies was “bad” or “misguided” or “evil”.

That’s what Star Wars used to be. The forces of good, betrayed and nearly extinguished from the galaxy, banding together into a common resistance, to fight tyranny, and oppression, and evil, all of the things represented by the bureaucratic Galactic Empire. That was always the moral of the story.

When Disney bought Star Wars and announced they would make another trilogy, I was hoping they would pass on that good and moral story to a new generation of fans. It was an even better thing to see Rey in the lead as a female character. Instead we got these cash grab toy commercials, where characters never grow or learn anything. They already come pre-packaged all powerful. And the Jedi are actually bad people. The exact opposite of what the OT stood for.

The Force Awakens was flawed in a lot of ways but there were some good parts and some room for potential. This movie was just the worst. So so so bad.

NeverarGreat said:

Is this why so many people disliked TLJ, because it confirms what George was trying to say throughout the prequels?

Sorry to have to tell you this, but that stuff’s technically canon.

I absolutely disagree, that that’s the message Lucas was sending with the saga. It’s one thing to question dogma, it’s another to reject basic values on which that dogma is based. The Jedi needed to evolve, and Luke by redeeming his father did that. He grew beyond the dogma of his masters by embracing the basic Jedi values without having been conditioned from birth to follow dogma. That’s the real return of the Jedi. Those were the values upon which the Old Republic was based, and those were the values that guarded the peace of the galaxy for over a thousand generations, a thousand generations!!! The last three decades in the Star Wars galaxy, and even the Emperor’s reign, are like a drop in the ocean compared to that. To deny that reality, and throw it in the bin, that is vanity. We are, what they grow beyond, states Yoda in TLJ. Luke was that, but in order for Rey to catch up and take over the batton, Luke had to forfeit the race.

This argument also brings me back to Rey’s sudden Force powers. One of my critics argued I was being pedantic for not accepting Rey’s rapid progression. She’s just a fast learner. Anyone who argues that fails to understand, that it’s not about the powers, she displays. The ironic thing is, that TLJ argues the Force is not about those powers, but then fails to recognize the underlying themes that becoming a Jedi represent. The dark side is the quick and easy path. One of the big lessons of the OT is, that it’s not easy to walk the path of the righteous, and to resist temptation. To have these super human powers, is to have an enormous responsibility, and to be a Jedi is to have an almost super human moral code. Rome wasn’t built in one day, and to obtain this stage of enlightenment takes years of training and self-reflection. That’s what becoming a Jedi was all about, and RJ has thrown that all by the wayside. TLJ is saying you can be the best at something without having to do the work. That’s wish fulfillment. I think that’s a terrible lesson for kids watching these films.

DominicCobb said:

TLJ across the board moves the saga from simple good vs evil to much grayer territories. I like that a lot, I guess some don’t. Maybe that’s one of the big things causing the divide here.

I suspect Star Wars will mean different things to different people. Especially if someone were an old school fan or they start watching during the prequels or they just got into these new movies. But I think most people who grew up with the OT will have a hard time accepting TLJ as anything other than heresy. YMMV

adywan said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

adywan said:

Well the Jedi aren’t exactly without flaws in the OT. You get Obi-wan lying , and Yoda keeping his mouth shut, to Luke about his father because they needed him to defeat the empire. And , when Luke was rushing off to save his friends and ultimately confront vader, Obi-Wan told him that he wouldn’t interfere. The same person that was supposed to be more powerful than we could possibly imagine after being struck down. And then, When Luke was calling out to him to help, completely ignored him. And finally told him that if he didn’t go and face Vader again and kill him that the emperor had won. refused to even listen when Luke said there was still good in him. He just wanted Vader dead.

How are any of these flaws? Obi-wan didn’t lie so much as he obscured the truth to protect Luke. He and Yoda knew that Luke wasn’t ready for that information, it would have destroyed him and turned him to the dark side. Nothing the Jedi did in the original movies was “bad” or “misguided” or “evil”.

They didn’t do it to protect him. They used him. Don’t you think that suddenly finding out , from the guy you were trying to kill, that he is your father and that the people who you thought were trying to help you were lying to you for their own gain, wouldn’t cause this kid some serious pain? That could screw someone up.

When Luke was leaving Dagobah:

YODA: Reckless is he. Now matters are worse.
Obi-Wan: That boy is our last hope
Yoda: NO, there is another,

Oh great. So basically let’s not try to help this kid and intervene. It doesn’t really matter to us if he gets killed. If he survives then great, but if not, we have a back-up. Doesn’t matter whether or not yoda tried to get out of it by saying he wasn’t ready for the burden. If they didn’t think for one second that Vader would use the fact that he was Luke’s Father as an advantage and tell him, then they were idiots. So, yes, they were flawed.

They were flawed. The practical implementations of democracy are flawed. Should we abandon it altogether, because it’s flawed? I don’t think so, because it’s the values democracy represents that are worth fighting for. The same goes for the Jedi in my view.

NeverarGreat said:

The more I think about it, the more I appreciate what RJ did with this.

By amplifying the idea of the Jedi as a fatally flawed dogma, it turns the triumphant finale of the Original Trilogy into a threat. With The Return of the Jedi, the galaxy is forced to endure yet another war caused by this religion.

And so The Return of the Jedi becomes the giant looming question, the impossible task, the paradox that the final trilogy must solve.

Again I completely disagree. The Sith cut down the tree of the Jedi. That tree may have had some rotten branches, but at it’s core it was sound and healthy. Luke was a seed from that tree. That seed was planted, and was meant to grow into a beautiful new tree. Not the same tree, but it’s based on the same genes, the same basic values. That’s what the ST should have been about, evolution, the connection between the past and the future, not the past must die.

adywan said:

They didn’t do it to protect him. They used him.

I strongly disagree. I think this is the wrong take. See below.

adywan said:
Don’t you think that suddenly finding out , from the guy you were trying to kill, that he is your father and that the people who you thought were trying to help you were lying to you for their own gain, wouldn’t cause this kid some serious pain? That could screw someone up.

They weren’t lying for their own gain. They were protecting him from turning to the dark side. Luke started the trilogy young and naive and inexperienced. He gave into his impulses easily. Do you think it would have been a good idea for Obi-Wan to tell Luke: “hey kid your dad’s a mass murderer and he abandoned you and your family. Your whole life is a lie!” Come to terms with that!

Or what if Yoda had told him, “hey Vader is your dad, if you go fight him he’s going to ask you to join him and you can rule the galaxy”.

No way man. Their goal was to train him so he could be mature and wise enough to deal with all of that when he was ready to do so in a healthy manner, and still turn out to be a good person, and save the galaxy.

The idea the Jedi are bad is such revisionist history that all started with the prequels.

adywan said:
When Luke was leaving Dagobah:

YODA: Reckless is he. Now matters are worse.
Obi-Wan: That boy is our last hope
Yoda: NO, there is another

By the way, since your love TFA/TLJ, haven’t you considered to slightly change Yoda’s line ?

Yoda: NO, there will be another

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

The idea the Jedi are bad is such revisionist history that all started with the prequels.

“Bad” ? No, but they lost by arrogance and blindness to their own power. In ROTS I really like the part where Mace just wants to kick Palpatine’s ass without any proof besides what Anakin told him. he’s reckless and sure to be on the good side. There also is a TCW episode (season 5 ending I guess) where we can see the view of the population about the war and the Jedi, and they don’t quite like both.

Some things I really liked about the new trilogy:

1. Seeing the old gang back together again
2. Passing the torch to a new generation of heroes and fans
3. Restoring the OT aesthetic (the PT was ugly and fake) but still update to 21st century
4. Rey being a strong female lead
5. New adventures and storylines still keeping the spirit of the originals

TFA had some great moments and some what were they thinking moments? I thought it was a mixed bag, but there was still hope or wonder to see where the story went. Now it’s all trashed. I wonder if anyone can explain to me first, independent of Star Wars, how was this a good movie? The plot was nonsensical. There were so many contrived scenarios and subplots. They kept returning to the exact same shot of the First Order ship shooting at the shields of the fleeing Resistance ship over and over again. I counted at least 4 times they used the same shot! The characters didn’t develop at all. They spent a whole movie trying to find Luke…Rey goes there to get him and afterward Yoda is like “you didn’t need to find him, you already know everything”. Gee, great.

I mean the movie was just a bad movie, but then you take the spirit of Star Wars and Luke’s character and just pour acid all over them and throw them into a dumpster fire. Even Mark Hamill said he disagrees with everything! That should tell you something.

Oh well, have to remind myself it’s just a movie. These new ones can never change how I feel about the original three…

MalàStrana said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

The idea the Jedi are bad is such revisionist history that all started with the prequels.

“Bad” ? No, but they lost by arrogance and blindness to their own power. In ROTS I really like the part where Mace just wants to kick Palpatine’s ass without any proof besides what Anakin told him.

Well, some of us hate the prequels and don’t really consider them Star Wars anyway. That’s where this fan division really started I think. If you grew up as an OT Star Wars fan, there was nothing bad about the Jedi. George turned into the billionaire and suddenly he didn’t want to make movies anymore about small little bands of friends rising up and overthrowing the existing order. His center of gravity changed and he wanted to start telling stories about political squabbling and the two trilogies don’t coexist well with each other. I mean, he introduced Midochlorians after all!

I was hopeful when TFA came out that Disney was moving away from the prequels and bringing Star Wars back to the originals. That shot of Han saying “Chewie, we’re home” and all the emphasis on practical sets and effects. But I guess it was probably nothing more than a ruse.

This was a quote I read from someone and I agree with it very much:

Sad that in the end people just throw their hands up and say "doesn’t work for you, works for me, oh well."
Good storytelling transcends subjective solipsism. The fact of the matter is that Luke’s actions in this film were not built up to in the previous films at all, and his character is a very severe departure from what he was. He also represents a bold new moral view of this universe, from the makers of this film, which is almost too sad to describe.
Art is an extension of worldview. It taps into what matters most to us. Lucas showed what matters most to him. And what was done to that worldview, and what worldview has replaced it, is chilly in the extreme. I certainly won’t be anxious to show this film to my children, when I have them. 1-6, sure. I do not agree with the values of this film, or the worldview it presents though. It seems cynical, poisonous and nihilistic, especially in light of what came before.
You may enjoy that if you like but there is no denying the shift that occurs. Anyone who denies that shift is very likely blind to the themes of these films.

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

4. Rey being a strong female lead

What’s new about that ? Leia and Padmé were leads as well (and I would say better leads since in TFA Rey doesn’t take a single decision… in TLJ the character is better but it’s not yet enough).