Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo — Page 562

Warbler said:

Jeebus said:

Bon voyage! Have fun in jail, shitbag!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/07/us/michael-slager-sentence-walter-scott.html

He should’ve gotten life, and this is only one case stacked up against a mountain of cases where the cop gets away with it; but it’s a start.

I agree justice was done in this case. Yes there are cases where the cop gets away with it, there are also cases where people presume the cop guilty and won’t give the evidence an open-minded evaluation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/12/08/graphic-video-shows-daniel-shaver-sobbing-and-begging-officer-for-his-life-before-2016-shooting/

This absolutely fucking enraged me. I can not think of a punishment too cruel or too unusual for those cops.

Jeebus said:

Warbler said:

Jeebus said:

Bon voyage! Have fun in jail, shitbag!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/07/us/michael-slager-sentence-walter-scott.html

He should’ve gotten life, and this is only one case stacked up against a mountain of cases where the cop gets away with it; but it’s a start.

I agree justice was done in this case. Yes there are cases where the cop gets away with it, there are also cases where people presume the cop guilty and won’t give the evidence an open-minded evaluation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/12/08/graphic-video-shows-daniel-shaver-sobbing-and-begging-officer-for-his-life-before-2016-shooting/

This absolutely fucking enraged me. I can not think of a punishment too cruel or too unusual for those cops.

While I don’t agree with how the officer handled the situation up to the point of shooting, I have to be honest and say it looked to me like the guy could have been reaching for a gun. At the time the cop fired, Daniel Shaver reached his right hand behind his back like he was reaching for something and then brought it out again. For all the cop knew, Shaver had in the back pocket of his pants. When I watched the video the first time, I could not tell whether he had a gun when he brought his hand out from behind him. Keep in mind, if Shaver was armed and intended to shoot, the officer would have had a mere split second to react. He could reply the video again and again and in slow motion to make sure whether or not Shaver had a gun. Now, I will say I do not understand why he ordered the guy to come forward on his knees with his legs crossed. I don’t why he couldn’t have ordered the guy to lie flat and have cop search him. I would like to know more about how things got to the point it did in the video. Also wish Ferris were still here. I’d be interested to hear what he would have to say about this.

I said I’d stop posting in this thread.

moviefreakedmind said:

EDIT: I know most of them won’t do that, but that’s the mindset amongst many people. “Oh, he was unarmed, but it looked like he could’ve been reaching for a gun. Better safe than sorry.”

You make a good point, but consider this: what if the cop in question were a family member of yours? You might then prefer the “better safe than sorry” approach.

He was pulling up his pants. Why would he decide to pull out a gun as he’s being faced down by 2 officers with rifles? Why would he comply with their endless stupid demands if he intended to pull out a gun? If he intended to shoot, why not do it before surrendering? Those cops got on the scene intending to kill someone. They shouted confusing demands at him, hoping for him to slip up; as if to justify their cold-blooded murder. If they intended to arrest him, they would’ve done so the second he surrendered himself, but they wanted to play with their prey. Whether or not the cops genuinely believed he was reaching for a gun is immaterial, because everything else surrounding the case shows that they’re totally unfit for the position.

Jeebus said:

He was pulling up his pants.

How do you know? Did you figure that out for certain the first time you watched the video? Remember The cop only had a split second and couldn’t replay what the guy was doing like you can with the video. Again, the first time I watched the video it looked like he could have been pulling gun. I certainly couldn’t be sure he wasn’t, and I wasn’t under and kind of stress when I watched it the first time, unlike the cop whose life was on the line if he guessed wrong. Keep in mind, we can analyze the video until doomsday if we want, that cop had only a split second to make a decision knowing that if he screwed up someone could die.

Why would he decide to pull out a gun as he’s being faced down by 2 officers with rifles?

for all the cops knew, the guy was crazy. I agree it is stupid to pull a gun out when faced with 2 cops with rifles pointed at you, but sometime people do stupid crazy suicidal things.

Why would he comply with their endless stupid demands if he intended to pull out a gun? If he intended to shoot, why not do it before surrendering?

Don’t know. But you are assuming people always do what makes sense. That is not always the case. Btw, I looked that at video multiple times and thought about it a lot and never considered why would comply with their demands if he intended to pull out a gun. Think about that. I had a lot of time to think about the shooting and I watched the video multiple times and I didn’t consider your point here until I read it. The cop in this situation didn’t have the luxury of sitting around thinking about the situation and pondering this point. He had a split second to make a decision, knowing that if guessed the guy did not have a gun and he was wrong he could end up dead.

Those cops got on the scene intending to kill someone.

You don’t know that.

They shouted confusing demands at him, hoping for him to slip up; as if to justify their cold-blooded murder.

Again, you are assuming. You don’t know that to be the case.

If they intended to arrest him, they would’ve done so the second he surrendered himself, but they wanted to play with their prey.

for pity sake. seriously? What makes you so certain of all of this?

Whether or not the cops genuinely believed he was reaching for a gun is immaterial,

no, it is not immaterial. If a person in that position is reaching for a gun, knowing there are rifles pointed at him, he is doing so for only one reason: he intends to use it.

because everything else surrounding the case shows that they’re totally unfit for the position.

maybe, I agree their attitude towards the guy seems strange. Again I don’t know why they didn’t order the guy to lay and search him that way. Maybe they are unfit. But the question before the court was whether the guy that fired is guilty of 2nd degree murder. If the cop that fired the shots believed the man had a gun, is he really guilty of murder? Bad policing maybe, but murder? You may have a good case for a wrongful death suit, but murder?

Like I said before, I want to know exactly what happened the led up to the beginning of what he see in the video.

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

EDIT: I know most of them won’t do that, but that’s the mindset amongst many people. “Oh, he was unarmed, but it looked like he could’ve been reaching for a gun. Better safe than sorry.”

You make a good point, but consider this: what if the cop in question were a family member of yours? You might then prefer the “better safe than sorry” approach.

I probably would, but I would also prefer that my cop family member opt for a taser or stun-gun in a situation where he’s got an apparently unarmed suspect held at gunpoint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIQ3A7uWxzU

moviefreakedmind said:

^ this. If anyone other than a cop did this, we’d be calling for the death penalty.

anyone else and we’d be wondering why they approached this guy instead of leaving it for the cops.

I think that when cops do things like this, the crime should be treated as more severe given the fact that they are police.

Sorry that is not the way our justice system works. Cops have the same rights as anyone else.

They shouldn’t be cut any slack at all for this shit.

No slack? what about the presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Do you really honestly know beyond a reasonable doubt that the cop didn’t think the guy was reaching for a gun?

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/08/569559223/federal-appeals-judge-alex-kozinski-accused-of-sexual-harassment

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

^ this. If anyone other than a cop did this, we’d be calling for the death penalty.

anyone else and we’d be wondering why they approached this guy instead of leaving it for the cops.

I think that when cops do things like this, the crime should be treated as more severe given the fact that they are police.

Sorry that is not the way our justice system works. Cops have the same rights as anyone else.

I didn’t say anything about revoking their rights. I think that it should be a more severe crime to murder someone while on duty as a police officer than otherwise. Even if the crime itself isn’t handled differently, it’s still more fucked up when cops do this since they’re in positions of trust and authority. It’s like how it is slightly more twisted when a parent abuses their own child than it is when just any evil adult abuses a child. They’re perverting the way things are supposed to be.

You make a good point.

They shouldn’t be cut any slack at all for this shit.

No. They should be held to a higher standard.

Why are you responding to yourself?

No slack? what about the presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Do you really honestly know beyond a reasonable doubt that the cop didn’t think the guy was reaching for a gun?

I don’t care if the cop thought he was reaching for a gun.

With that unreasonable statement, I see no reason to discuss this further.

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

EDIT: I know most of them won’t do that, but that’s the mindset amongst many people. “Oh, he was unarmed, but it looked like he could’ve been reaching for a gun. Better safe than sorry.”

You make a good point, but consider this: what if the cop in question were a family member of yours? You might then prefer the “better safe than sorry” approach.

I probably would, but I would also prefer that my cop family member opt for a taser or stun-gun in a situation where he’s got an apparently unarmed suspect held at gunpoint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIQ3A7uWxzU

His explanation doesn’t apply here. The suspect wasn’t doing anything when he was murdered so the fear that a taser would have been ineffective isn’t important. They could have jumped on him and had time.

Actually he was doing somthing, he was reaching behind his back and for all they knew, he had a gun.

Wow, he’s clever.

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

^ this. If anyone other than a cop did this, we’d be calling for the death penalty.

anyone else and we’d be wondering why they approached this guy instead of leaving it for the cops.

I think that when cops do things like this, the crime should be treated as more severe given the fact that they are police.

Sorry that is not the way our justice system works. Cops have the same rights as anyone else.

I didn’t say anything about revoking their rights. I think that it should be a more severe crime to murder someone while on duty as a police officer than otherwise. Even if the crime itself isn’t handled differently, it’s still more fucked up when cops do this since they’re in positions of trust and authority. It’s like how it is slightly more twisted when a parent abuses their own child than it is when just any evil adult abuses a child. They’re perverting the way things are supposed to be.

You make a good point.

They shouldn’t be cut any slack at all for this shit.

No. They should be held to a higher standard.

Why are you responding to yourself?

You quoted it like it was something you said.

oops! I have now corrected that.

No slack? what about the presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Do you really honestly know beyond a reasonable doubt that the cop didn’t think the guy was reaching for a gun?

I don’t care if the cop thought he was reaching for a gun.

With that unreasonable statement, I see no reason to discuss this further.

If he saw this guy as being that dangerous then he shouldn’t have given him so much time to reach for a gun. Rather than harassing him, he should’ve arrested him right away. At best it’s criminal incompetence and manslaughter.

That is what they were trying to do, arrest him, I think. I don’t know exactly how things got to the point there were at the beginning of the video. But they clearly thought he could be armed and probably thought it was too dangerous to just approach him and arrest him. I am not in agreement with how they proceeded, I do not know why they couldn’t have ordered the guy to lay flat and search him that way and then arrest him.

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

EDIT: I know most of them won’t do that, but that’s the mindset amongst many people. “Oh, he was unarmed, but it looked like he could’ve been reaching for a gun. Better safe than sorry.”

You make a good point, but consider this: what if the cop in question were a family member of yours? You might then prefer the “better safe than sorry” approach.

I probably would, but I would also prefer that my cop family member opt for a taser or stun-gun in a situation where he’s got an apparently unarmed suspect held at gunpoint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIQ3A7uWxzU

His explanation doesn’t apply here. The suspect wasn’t doing anything when he was murdered so the fear that a taser would have been ineffective isn’t important. They could have jumped on him and had time.

Actually he was doing somthing, he was reaching behind his back and for all they knew, he had a gun.

The cop shouldn’t have let it get to that point.

What should they have done? approach a suspect that could have been armed and try to arrest him and risk getting shot? I am not expert and I have no training so I don’t know what exact steps should be taken in arresting a suspect in situation and also again we don’t know the events that occurred before the video began.

And given the context of that situation, there’s reason to make that conclusion, just as Jeebus explained. I don’t get why cops have to be given such extreme benefits of the doubt.

1. it is how our justice system works: the defendant gets the benefit of the doubt.

2. the average untrained citizen does not understand everything about police work. Sometimes they may do something that does not make sense to the untrained person but makes perfect sense to the trained person.

3. watching a video again and again and again and perhaps in slow motion and being able to think all day about what the cop should have done while being safe and calm is not the same as the cop himself watching events fold out in real time having make decisions in split seconds with adrenaline pumping and heart beating and knowing if he makes a mistake he could get shot or another cop could get shot and having only one chance to get it right. Remember when that guy put his hand behind his back, the cop couldn’t just stop the video like we can and ponder what he should do before he hits play again.

Warbler said:

That is what they were trying to do, arrest him, I think.

And the sick Simon Says game was just part of the arrest, right?

What should they have done? approach a suspect that could have been armed and try to arrest him and risk getting shot?

Yes. They’re taught that one officer to is supposed to aim at the suspect and provide cover while the other officer moves up to make the arrest.

2. the average untrained citizen does not understand everything about police work. Sometimes they may do something that does not make sense to the untrained person but makes perfect sense to the trained person.

Oh, so it is just part of the arrest, how silly of me to think that I could possibly understand. I just don’t have a high enough IQ to understand these incredibly complex 16th dimension tactics. Bullshit. Do we really have to know the ins and outs of police work to recognize that this was wrong?

3. watching a video again and again and again and perhaps in slow motion and being able to think all day about what the cop should have done while being safe and calm is not the same as the cop himself watching events fold out in real time having make decisions in split seconds with adrenaline pumping and heart beating and knowing if he makes a mistake he could get shot or another cop could get shot and having only one chance to get it right. Remember when that guy put his hand behind his back, the cop couldn’t just stop the video like we can and ponder what he should do before he hits play again.

The cops put themselves in that situation by fucking around with the suspect and not getting on with the arrest. Either the officers are beyond stupid, or they deliberately wanted to prolong the engagement and raise the chances of the suspect fucking up. There is no third option. And I won’t accept that “they feared for their lives” crap, these were two trained officers with assault rifles up against a man crawling on the floor crying and begging not to be shot.

EDIT: Sorry if this came across as too angry, but I really am tired of the gymnastics people will do to defend some cops. And I’m doubly tired of the “they felt threatened” get-out-of-jail-free card.