My thoughts on various changes — Page 4

To be blunt, I think you’re trolling us.

Not this again. I got the same response when I proposed remaking the First and Second Doctor adventures from Doctor Who. Granted, in retrospective, it was a pretty terrible idea, but still.

Anyway, back to SW, I guess if you think ghosts can shapeshift, that’s fine. There’s no way I can prove otherwise. I guess if we’re just seeing what Luke sees based on his own expectations, he could’ve been what Luke figured Anakin looked like before the lava incident. However, I find it hard to believe Luke would never have seen actual pictures of him, so him just looking the way Luke expects would actually make Hayden an even more appropriate choice, since Luke would probably be oblivious to all the Tuskens, younglings, and other people he killed in that form.

Anakin Starkiller said:

To be blunt, I think you’re trolling us.

Not this again. I got the same response when I proposed remaking the First and Second Doctor adventures from Doctor Who. Granted, in retrospective, it was a pretty terrible idea, but still.

Believe me, I don’t like calling people trolls right off the bat. Too many people throw the word around on the Internet just 'cause someone has an opinion they don’t like.

Anyway, back to SW, I guess if you think ghosts can shapeshift, that’s fine. There’s no way I can prove otherwise.

That’s all you had to say in the first place.

I guess if we’re just seeing what Luke sees based on his own expectations, he could’ve been what Luke figured Anakin looked like before the lava incident. However, I find it hard to believe Luke would never have seen actual pictures of him, so him just looking the way Luke expects would actually make Hayden an even more appropriate choice, since Luke would probably be oblivious to all the Tuskens, younglings, and other people he killed in that form.

I don’t agree with your opinion, but I can respect it. I take back the “troll” remark.

Anakin Starkiller said:
However, I find it hard to believe Luke would never have seen actual pictures of him.

Actually, I find it hard to believe Luke would ever have seen actual pictures of Anakin. He didn’t even know that Vader was his father, his uncle carefully hid this information, and the only pictures that could exist of Hayden-Anakin belong to Padme, who died years ago on another planet where Luke never set foot.

But I respect your opinion, as nor Shaw-without-scars nor Hayden are a fully satisfying choice. I just think that Shaw is less unlogical than Hayden.

Nevermind. I think my quote was just being used as an example to explain the shape shifting theory.

I think someone mentioned this but if we are to believe Force Ghosts can’t take what form they wish then how does Anakin, Shaw or Hayden, appear in Jedi robes he never had??

ray_afraid said:

crissrudd4554 said:

I think someone mentioned this but if we are to believe Force Ghosts can’t take what form they wish then how does Anakin, Shaw or Hayden, appear in Jedi robes he never had??

That’s a problem in the PT, not the OT.
OT can’t be blamed for someone dropping the ball over a decade later.

And, again, to people who say Shaw should still have had scars, ect;
Should Obi-Wan still be cut in half? That’s how he was last time we saw him.
Should Yoda still be sick and coughing? That’s how he was last time we saw him.

True, true

crissrudd4554 said:

I think someone mentioned this but if we are to believe Force Ghosts can’t take what form they wish then how does Anakin, Shaw or Hayden, appear in Jedi robes he never had??

Excellent point. I was thinking about it when wondering what it would be like to have scarred Shaw as the ghost.

It’s there but you can barely see it.

For what it’s worth, when I first saw ROTJ in '83 I assumed the ghostly Shaw was appearing in Tatooine garb by way of symbolising a return to some sort of pre-war innocence. In the original canon (ie the novelisation of SW) Anakin had been a farmer like Owen, and was obviously recruited by Obi Wan for some kind of ‘crusade’. So I thought he was merely appearing in his old farmer duds for Luke’s benefit - kind of a “here’s how I would’ve looked if I hadn’t become a war criminal at the right hand of Hitler” type thing. It never occurred to me that Lucas intended that outfit to represent official Jedi threads (which is absurd IMO).

Shopping Maul said:

It never occurred to me that Lucas intended that outfit to represent official Jedi threads (which is absurd IMO).

Virtually all of Lucas’ creative decisions for the PT are absurd, and not in a good way.

I just say…actually nope. I gave my reason here.

crissrudd4554 said:

Having Hayden appear IMO makes Anakins redemption less meaningful and deceptive. It almost pushes the idea that had he survived we are to think he will just return to the whiny young Jedi he was years ago which I think most of us will agree wouldnt be the case. IMO the redemption is more about a man turning his back on evil for good than simply reverting to who he had been many years before. The spirit Luke sees is the redeemed man who saved his life, not the whiny arrogant Jedi who would ultimately turn his back on good.

ray_afraid said:

Best argument for Shaw being there is that WE JUST SAW HIM DIE.

The Shaw we saw die and the one who appears as a ghost look very different.

crissrudd4554 said:

I just say…actually nope. I gave my reason here.

crissrudd4554 said:

Having Hayden appear IMO makes Anakins redemption less meaningful and deceptive. It almost pushes the idea that had he survived we are to think he will just return to the whiny young Jedi he was years ago which I think most of us will agree wouldnt be the case. IMO the redemption is more about a man turning his back on evil for good than simply reverting to who he had been many years before. The spirit Luke sees is the redeemed man who saved his life, not the whiny arrogant Jedi who would ultimately turn his back on good.

I agree. Plus, the whole point of Vader’s redemption is/was the fact that Luke saw potential there. Obi Wan had written Anakin off entirely, going so far as to declare Anakin dead by Vader’s hand (so to speak) and inferring that Luke’s only choice was to kill Vader. Luke refused to buy into this alleged separation between Vader and Anakin. Luke turned out to be right. There was ‘good in him’. Hence Shaw being the logical ghost.

The bigger problem for me is the fact that Luke became a Jedi by throwing his weapon away and refusing to kill the bad guys - even as his friends were being slaughtered outside. Yet Darth somehow gets to Jedi heaven by killing the bad guy? Jedi ethics give me a headache…

Vader did it to save his son, not to “kill the bad guy”. There’s a big difference there.

But that just makes Vader’s motives more selfish. Palpatine was slaughtering people by the shipload (not to mention subjugating an entire galaxy). You’d think Luke would be justified in taking this guy down. But no, all Luke could do was make sure he stayed Zen. Great if you’re scoring brownie points at a Buddhist retreat maybe, but not much help with the war effort.
Vader’s position was purely selfish. “Hey, no-one messes with my kid!”. He was merely protecting his own. How does this earn him instant Jedi nirvana?

Shopping Maul said:

Vader did it to save his son, not to “kill the bad guy”. There’s a big difference there.

But that just makes Vader’s motives more selfish. Palpatine was slaughtering people by the shipload (not to mention subjugating an entire galaxy). You’d think Luke would be justified in taking this guy down. But no, all Luke could do was make sure he stayed Zen. Great if you’re scoring brownie points at a Buddhist retreat maybe, but not much help with the war effort.
Vader’s position was purely selfish. “Hey, no-one messes with my kid!”. He was merely protecting his own. How does this earn him instant Jedi nirvana?

Therein lies my problem with Vader’s “redemption”. Even if you can make the case that a mass murderer can absolve himself with one good act, Vader’s one good act was hardly selfless.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Shopping Maul said:

Vader did it to save his son, not to “kill the bad guy”. There’s a big difference there.

But that just makes Vader’s motives more selfish. Palpatine was slaughtering people by the shipload (not to mention subjugating an entire galaxy). You’d think Luke would be justified in taking this guy down. But no, all Luke could do was make sure he stayed Zen. Great if you’re scoring brownie points at a Buddhist retreat maybe, but not much help with the war effort.
Vader’s position was purely selfish. “Hey, no-one messes with my kid!”. He was merely protecting his own. How does this earn him instant Jedi nirvana?

Therein lies my problem with Vader’s “redemption”. Even if you can make the case that a mass murderer can absolve himself with one good act, Vader’s one good act was hardly selfless.

Exactly! At least in the case of the OT you could argue that Vader’s redemption was a personal one - that he died for his son and got to be a smiley ghost guy for that reason alone (ghost-Obi and ghost-Yoda’s fireside forbearance notwithstanding). But changing Shaw into Hayden opens the can of worms that is the prophecy of the Chosen One, the ridiculous ‘balance to the Force’ business, and a last-minute pardon for unspeakable war crimes that should make any Jedi-supporter uneasy to say the least.

But the bigger problem for me (slightly off-topic but…) is that Luke didn’t save the galaxy. After all that build-up, all that stuff about the quick and easy path, all that guff about ‘a new hope’ and ‘our only hope’ and ‘the other hope’ and everything else, all Luke did was keep his cool long enough for his mass-murdering old man to get a bedside conversion. I bet Luke brought the house down when he related his story at the Ewok luau.

The real saviour of the galaxy was Chewbacca. It was Chewie who hijacked a Scout Walker and turned the tide of the battle. All Luke did was make sure old Anakin went out with a smile.

ray_afraid said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

ray_afraid said:

Best argument for Shaw being there is that WE JUST SAW HIM DIE.

The Shaw we saw die and the one who appears as a ghost look very different.

Once again, if you think his ghost should have been scarred, then Obi-Wan’s ghost should be missing his lower half.
It’s clearly the same man.

The difference is that Obi-Wan wasn’t cut down until he died. Shaw’s ghost is appearing as someone who never existed.

Anakin Starkiller said:

ray_afraid said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

ray_afraid said:

Best argument for Shaw being there is that WE JUST SAW HIM DIE.

The Shaw we saw die and the one who appears as a ghost look very different.

Once again, if you think his ghost should have been scarred, then Obi-Wan’s ghost should be missing his lower half.
It’s clearly the same man.

The difference is that Obi-Wan wasn’t cut down until he died. Shaw’s ghost is appearing as someone who never existed.

If the other characters are able to recognize him in spite of his form which they clearly do does it matter if it’s a form he was never in while living??? I don’t think so.

JEDIT: I don’t think most viewers have or had difficulty distiguishing who the third spirit was either so I really don’t get what form his spirit takes form compared to the forms he was while alive really has to do with anything. Not trolling, just being honest.