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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 52

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NeverarGreat said:

flametitan said:

NeverarGreat said:

flametitan said:

NeverarGreat said:

Loved the trailer, basically confirms that Luke is abandoning the Jedi for a balance.

Not sure how I feel about that. I actually really disliked how Legends started to take “balance” literally, and that the Jedi and Sith were merely philosophical differences, rather than how the Dark side was a tumour on the Force originally.

There’s no denying that the ‘Light’ side of the Force has issues as well, which is why it was only by recognizing the Dark Side that Luke was able to prevail in Jedi. The Jedi’s prohibition against some emotions and the dogma that they are impossible to overcome once indulged in was shown absolutely to be false. I for one appreciate the new direction this is taking.

But the Jedi Dogmatism was supposed to represent corruption in the Jedi (If we are to believe Lucas, who has had issues representing what he actually meant in the Prequels). The default state of the Jedi was supposed to be much more benevolent, but at some point they literally forgot their connection to the Force to use it as little more than a tool. Using the RotS novelization as a reference, Obi-Wan points out how the Jedi council in ages past didn’t bicker, but rather let the Force guide them to an answer, hinting that the Jedi lost their way.

In Jedi, that sequence was anything but Luke prevailing by channelling the darkness. If you look beyond Luke kicking Vader’s ass, the set up is that Luke lost control of himself because of Vader’s words getting to him; the music turns ominous, representing Luke going against what he stood for; and finally, when the fight ends, Luke is absolutely horrified at what he did. It wasn’t a triumph by finding “balance” between light and dark, it’s despair as our hero verges on becoming the monster he fought.

I guess this scene could mean something different for everyone. What I got from it was that Luke had previously been afraid of the Dark Side, of fear and anger themselves, due to Yoda’s teaching. Yet when he snaps and uses his anger to overcome Vader, he is working through the pent-up emotion and destroying the false serenity of his Jedi facade. Yet since he doesn’t suppress the Light Side of the Force, he isn’t consumed with the Dark Side but allows it to eventually pass out of him. When he regains his composure he recognizes how the Dark Side was able to corrupt Vader with hopelessness and fear, anger at his weakness, etc. Luke has no fear of fear itself, no further anger at his use of anger, and is truly at peace in the moment that he tosses away his lightsaber.

Again, that’s just my opinion of the scene. It’s certainly possible to read this as Luke conforming entirely to Jedi doctrine, but since he had already started down the dark path and was able to return, one of Yoda’s teachings at least was proven to be false.

This ^^^

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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flametitan said:

NeverarGreat said:

flametitan said:

NeverarGreat said:

Loved the trailer, basically confirms that Luke is abandoning the Jedi for a balance.

Not sure how I feel about that. I actually really disliked how Legends started to take “balance” literally, and that the Jedi and Sith were merely philosophical differences, rather than how the Dark side was a tumour on the Force originally.

There’s no denying that the ‘Light’ side of the Force has issues as well, which is why it was only by recognizing the Dark Side that Luke was able to prevail in Jedi. The Jedi’s prohibition against some emotions and the dogma that they are impossible to overcome once indulged in was shown absolutely to be false. I for one appreciate the new direction this is taking.

But the Jedi Dogmatism was supposed to represent corruption in the Jedi (If we are to believe Lucas, who has had issues representing what he actually meant in the Prequels). The default state of the Jedi was supposed to be much more benevolent, but at some point they literally forgot their connection to the Force to use it as little more than a tool. Using the RotS novelization as a reference, Obi-Wan points out how the Jedi council in ages past didn’t bicker, but rather let the Force guide them to an answer, hinting that the Jedi lost their way.

In Jedi, that sequence was anything but Luke prevailing by channelling the darkness. If you look beyond Luke kicking Vader’s ass, the set up is that Luke lost control of himself because of Vader’s words getting to him; the music turns ominous, representing Luke going against what he stood for; and finally, when the fight ends, Luke is absolutely horrified at what he did. It wasn’t a triumph by finding “balance” between light and dark, it’s despair as our hero verges on becoming the monster he fought.

You don’t think he can adopt a philosophy of “Use your inner darkness to best your enemies but don’t let it envelope you for too long”? Also what’s to say that Luke didn’t take bits and pieces of philosophy that Dark Siders hold dear and use them to bolster his new philosophy?

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 (Edited)

anyone figured what the whispers are in the trailer - if you listen carefully you can hear these whispers - but I can’t make them out…

I heard Yoda from ESB? Maybe Obi-wan too.

A trailer image gallery http://imgur.com/a/ByJ18#hRzdNqN

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oojason said:

anyone figured what the whispers are in the trailer - if you listen carefully you can hear these whispers - but I can’t make them out…

I believe it’s Leia’s message to Obi-Wan from ANH when we see her from the back, Obi-Wan talking about the Dark Side corrupting from ANH when we see Kylo’s helmet, and the last whisper is Yoda from ESB talking about the Force surrounding.

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The Resistance ships look like a take on the Blockade Runners/Republic Cruisers/Legends Corellian Gunships. They have the same aesthetic.

Books! Real books!

No Chewie… 😦

I’m excited.

It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher

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 (Edited)

NeverarGreat said:
Again, that’s just my opinion of the scene. It’s certainly possible to read this as Luke conforming entirely to Jedi doctrine, but since he had already started down the dark path and was able to return, one of Yoda’s teachings at least was proven to be false.

That was already proven false with Vader himself. The big thing you see throughout RotJ is that Luke has a different outlook on things from his former masters and his peers. He’s shown to believe that you can come back from the darkness. His masters believe that Luke is the only thing that can defeat the Empire, but Luke trusts the rebellion to be able to succeed without him. That’s why he went with Vader instead of staying. He thought he did more damage to be with them than he could prevent by being an actual superhero. If he didn’t believe his friends could do it, he wouldn’t have gone.

Overall, he’s much more trusting of the Force to work in its mysterious ways. When he’s shown attacking the Emperor or Vader, it’s shown as him having doubts that his friends would succeed, fear that he’ll lose someone. Luke’s Light is different from the Prequel Jedi (who are again supposed to be corrupt Zealots). He’s not without emotion; he’s quite passionate even without it looking like he’s using the Dark Side.

Lord Haseo said:
You don’t think he can adopt a philosophy of “Use your inner darkness to best your enemies but don’t let it envelope you for too long”? Also what’s to say that Luke didn’t take bits and pieces of philosophy that Dark Siders hold dear and use them to bolster his new philosophy?

To me? No. Again, I still see the Dark Side as the malignant tumour on the energy field that life creates. It is not a difference in philosophy; it is the manifestation of the emotions behind bigotry and oppression. Being “A little dark” is akin to being “a little evil.”

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Any thoughts on these possible similarities? (sorry, I couldn’t find smaller pictures, so I’m directly linking their URLs, instead):

Do you think we’re going to see plot similarities with TESB (like TFA with ANH) or are they just going to be minor things, mostly visual (if any)?

The Original Trilogy’s Timeline Reconstruction: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Implied-starting-date-of-the-Empire-from-OT-dialogue/post/786201/#TopicPost786201

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flametitan said:

NeverarGreat said:
Again, that’s just my opinion of the scene. It’s certainly possible to read this as Luke conforming entirely to Jedi doctrine, but since he had already started down the dark path and was able to return, one of Yoda’s teachings at least was proven to be false.

That was already proven false with Vader himself. The big thing you see throughout RotJ is that Luke has a different outlook on things from his former masters and his peers. He’s shown to believe that you can come back from the darkness. His masters believe that Luke is the only thing that can defeat the Empire, but Luke trusts the rebellion to be able to succeed without him. That’s why he went with Vader instead of staying. He thought he did more damage to be with them than he could prevent by being an actual superhero. If he didn’t believe his friends could do it, he wouldn’t have gone.

Overall, he’s much more trusting of the Force to work in its mysterious ways. When he’s shown attacking the Emperor or Vader, it’s shown as him having doubts that his friends would succeed, fear that he’ll lose someone. Luke’s Light is different from the Prequel Jedi (who are again supposed to be corrupt Zealots). He’s not without emotion; he’s quite passionate even without it looking like he’s using the Dark Side.

Lord Haseo said:
You don’t think he can adopt a philosophy of “Use your inner darkness to best your enemies but don’t let it envelope you for too long”? Also what’s to say that Luke didn’t take bits and pieces of philosophy that Dark Siders hold dear and use them to bolster his new philosophy?

To me? No. Again, I still see the Dark Side as the malignant tumour on the energy field that life creates. It is not a difference in philosophy; it is the manifestation of the emotions behind bigotry and oppression. Being “A little dark” is akin to being “a little evil.”

Lucas pulled a lot from Eastern philosophy for Star Wars and the Jedi. Yin and yang. They are two halves of the whole. The dark side is not a cancer on the force. The Sith may be, but not the dark side. To achieve balance a force user must be able to draw on both sides without letting either consume them. The middle way is the path to enlightenment in Buddhism. Even in ANH and TESB, we see Lucas painting the Jedi as stodgy - unable to see the path to redemption because they see Anakin’s fall as permanent. Luke does not see it that way. I see in that moment in Jedi when the Emperor is talking and Luke looks at his mechanical hand and Vader’s stump with wires coming out and he found the middle path at that moment. Yin and yang in balance. How that pertains to the future of the Jedi and what Luke says in the new trailer will have to wait until we see these next two films.

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yotsuya said:

flametitan said:

NeverarGreat said:
Again, that’s just my opinion of the scene. It’s certainly possible to read this as Luke conforming entirely to Jedi doctrine, but since he had already started down the dark path and was able to return, one of Yoda’s teachings at least was proven to be false.

That was already proven false with Vader himself. The big thing you see throughout RotJ is that Luke has a different outlook on things from his former masters and his peers. He’s shown to believe that you can come back from the darkness. His masters believe that Luke is the only thing that can defeat the Empire, but Luke trusts the rebellion to be able to succeed without him. That’s why he went with Vader instead of staying. He thought he did more damage to be with them than he could prevent by being an actual superhero. If he didn’t believe his friends could do it, he wouldn’t have gone.

Overall, he’s much more trusting of the Force to work in its mysterious ways. When he’s shown attacking the Emperor or Vader, it’s shown as him having doubts that his friends would succeed, fear that he’ll lose someone. Luke’s Light is different from the Prequel Jedi (who are again supposed to be corrupt Zealots). He’s not without emotion; he’s quite passionate even without it looking like he’s using the Dark Side.

Lord Haseo said:
You don’t think he can adopt a philosophy of “Use your inner darkness to best your enemies but don’t let it envelope you for too long”? Also what’s to say that Luke didn’t take bits and pieces of philosophy that Dark Siders hold dear and use them to bolster his new philosophy?

To me? No. Again, I still see the Dark Side as the malignant tumour on the energy field that life creates. It is not a difference in philosophy; it is the manifestation of the emotions behind bigotry and oppression. Being “A little dark” is akin to being “a little evil.”

Lucas pulled a lot from Eastern philosophy for Star Wars and the Jedi. Yin and yang. They are two halves of the whole. The dark side is not a cancer on the force. The Sith may be, but not the dark side. To achieve balance a force user must be able to draw on both sides without letting either consume them. The middle way is the path to enlightenment in Buddhism. Even in ANH and TESB, we see Lucas painting the Jedi as stodgy - unable to see the path to redemption because they see Anakin’s fall as permanent. Luke does not see it that way. I see in that moment in Jedi when the Emperor is talking and Luke looks at his mechanical hand and Vader’s stump with wires coming out and he found the middle path at that moment. Yin and yang in balance. How that pertains to the future of the Jedi and what Luke says in the new trailer will have to wait until we see these next two films.

He borrowed terminology, but he explicitly did not borrow Yin and Yang for the force, if you read his interviews. Balance was supposed to be the removal of evil, not an equal amount of light and dark.

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 (Edited)

flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:
You don’t think he can adopt a philosophy of “Use your inner darkness to best your enemies but don’t let it envelope you for too long”? Also what’s to say that Luke didn’t take bits and pieces of philosophy that Dark Siders hold dear and use them to bolster his new philosophy?

To me? No. Again, I still see the Dark Side as the malignant tumour on the energy field that life creates. It is not a difference in philosophy; it is the manifestation of the emotions behind bigotry and oppression. Being “A little dark” is akin to being “a little evil.”

We all harbor some amount of taint inside us. Luke would no doubt accept that and try to use his for the betterment of the Galaxy. The nature of these base feelings doesn’t matter so long as the outcome is good.

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So this is the only trailer we are getting?

The synthesis of a trailer and level of secrecy required to preserve the effect of a movie is inversely proportional to the quality of the film.

It truly makes me worry.

Back in the eighties it was “introducing Lando Calrissian” and no fucks given.

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Lord Haseo said:

flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:
You don’t think he can adopt a philosophy of “Use your inner darkness to best your enemies but don’t let it envelope you for too long”? Also what’s to say that Luke didn’t take bits and pieces of philosophy that Dark Siders hold dear and use them to bolster his new philosophy?

To me? No. Again, I still see the Dark Side as the malignant tumour on the energy field that life creates. It is not a difference in philosophy; it is the manifestation of the emotions behind bigotry and oppression. Being “A little dark” is akin to being “a little evil.”

We all harbor some amount of taint inside us. Luke would no doubt accept that and try to use his for the betterment of the Galaxy. The nature of these base feelings doesn’t matter so long as the outcome is good.

The Force is not a tool; it is not just a means to an end. It is the very thing that brings life together. Using the corruption of the energy created by life to protect life is hypocritical at best.

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Mithrandir said:

So this is the only trailer we are getting?

The synthesis of a trailer and level of secrecy required to preserve the effect of a movie is inversely proportional to the quality of the film.

It truly makes me worry.

Back in the eighties it was “introducing Lando Calrissian” and no fucks given.

It’s a teaser. If it’s like TFA then there will likely be another teaser and then a full trailer coming. Not to mention all the tv spots and international trailers.

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 (Edited)

flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:

flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:
You don’t think he can adopt a philosophy of “Use your inner darkness to best your enemies but don’t let it envelope you for too long”? Also what’s to say that Luke didn’t take bits and pieces of philosophy that Dark Siders hold dear and use them to bolster his new philosophy?

To me? No. Again, I still see the Dark Side as the malignant tumour on the energy field that life creates. It is not a difference in philosophy; it is the manifestation of the emotions behind bigotry and oppression. Being “A little dark” is akin to being “a little evil.”

We all harbor some amount of taint inside us. Luke would no doubt accept that and try to use his for the betterment of the Galaxy. The nature of these base feelings doesn’t matter so long as the outcome is good.

The Force is not a tool; it is not just a means to an end. It is the very thing that brings life together. Using the corruption of the energy created by life to protect life is hypocritical at best.

Sometimes extraordinary and/or unpleasant measures have to be taken to ensure peace in the long run. Does this fact conflict with emotional whatevertheshits? Of course it does but feelings don’t matter in situations of this magnitude.

And what you call hypocritical is what I call being able to see patterns or new ways of thinking and adapting to your philosophy. And to put it in even simpler terms it’s just being realistic.

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flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:

flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:
You don’t think he can adopt a philosophy of “Use your inner darkness to best your enemies but don’t let it envelope you for too long”? Also what’s to say that Luke didn’t take bits and pieces of philosophy that Dark Siders hold dear and use them to bolster his new philosophy?

To me? No. Again, I still see the Dark Side as the malignant tumour on the energy field that life creates. It is not a difference in philosophy; it is the manifestation of the emotions behind bigotry and oppression. Being “A little dark” is akin to being “a little evil.”

We all harbor some amount of taint inside us. Luke would no doubt accept that and try to use his for the betterment of the Galaxy. The nature of these base feelings doesn’t matter so long as the outcome is good.

The Force is not a tool; it is not just a means to an end. It is the very thing that brings life together. Using the corruption of the energy created by life to protect life is hypocritical at best.

This will quickly get into deep epistemological distinctions about good and evil, but to me, since the Force is an energy field created by life, all the processes of life forms feed into this energy field. This includes both the ‘nice’ emotions such as happiness and serenity, but also the ‘ugly’ emotions like fear and anger and apathy. As someone who has dealt with apathy in the past (‘what’s the point, nothing can get better’), often in order to rise out of apathy one must become aware of fear (‘I actually can affect this situation, and the situation is scary’), accepting it in order to rise through that through anger (‘I hate that I’ve let things get so bad’) and into happier emotions. This is what I imagine Luke going through in ROTJ.

My point is that these ‘ugly’ emotions exist in the real world for a reason. They’re not aberrant or unnatural, and to turn them into the equivalent of sin is a very religious, very Jedi, thing to do. The natural state of someone in command of the light and dark sides of the Force would, I expect, be a very serene and happy person on the whole, but it doesn’t mean they couldn’t get mad or fearful. It’s a gradient, not a black and white distinction, and I don’t think that a grey Jedi or the equivalent would use both sides equally. To dip into Eastern religion, someone using the Dark Side would be rather unenlightened, whereas someone using the light would be more enlightened. A good Jedi teaching in an Eastern mold might be that anyone who uses the Force is a Jedi, but the use of the Dark Side momentarily masks this Truth. That is how I choose to interpret Luke’s assertion after he throws aside his lightsaber.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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 (Edited)

Lord Haseo said:

flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:

flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:
You don’t think he can adopt a philosophy of “Use your inner darkness to best your enemies but don’t let it envelope you for too long”? Also what’s to say that Luke didn’t take bits and pieces of philosophy that Dark Siders hold dear and use them to bolster his new philosophy?

To me? No. Again, I still see the Dark Side as the malignant tumour on the energy field that life creates. It is not a difference in philosophy; it is the manifestation of the emotions behind bigotry and oppression. Being “A little dark” is akin to being “a little evil.”

We all harbor some amount of taint inside us. Luke would no doubt accept that and try to use his for the betterment of the Galaxy. The nature of these base feelings doesn’t matter so long as the outcome is good.

The Force is not a tool; it is not just a means to an end. It is the very thing that brings life together. Using the corruption of the energy created by life to protect life is hypocritical at best.

Sometimes extraordinary and/or unpleasant measures have to be taken to ensure peace in the long run. Does this fact conflict with emotional whatevertheshits? Of course it does but feelings don’t matter in situations of this magnitude.

And what you call hypocritical is what I call being able to see patterns or new ways thinking and adapting to your philosophy. And to pit it in even simpler terms it’s just being realistic.

But does a hypothetical “peace” justify using the very power that when used, brings the chaos and war that plagues the Galaxy? It would seem to me that encouraging the use of the Dark side would encourage those who can’t control themselves to fall, thus creating a neverending cycle of war and violence that would be defining to the galaxy.

To me it would seem better to teach apprentices outlets for fear and anger that would avoid tapping into the dark side, to trust that the will of the Force is what’s best, rather than to try to control that which can easily corrupt those who try.

This will quickly get into deep epistemological distinctions about good and evil, but to me, since the Force is an energy field created by life, all the processes of life forms feed into this energy field. This includes both the ‘nice’ emotions such as happiness and serenity, but also the ‘ugly’ emotions like fear and anger and apathy. As someone who has dealt with apathy in the past (‘what’s the point, nothing can get better’), often in order to rise out of apathy one must become aware of fear (‘I actually can affect this situation, and the situation is scary’), accepting it in order to rise through that through anger (‘I hate that I’ve let things get so bad’) and into happier emotions. This is what I imagine Luke going through in ROTJ.

My point is that these ‘ugly’ emotions exist in the real world for a reason. They’re not aberrant or unnatural, and to turn them into the equivalent of sin is a very religious, very Jedi, thing to do. The natural state of someone in command of the light and dark sides of the Force would, I expect, be a very serene and happy person on the whole, but it doesn’t mean they couldn’t get mad or fearful. It’s a gradient, not a black and white distinction, and I don’t think that a grey Jedi or the equivalent would use both sides equally. To dip into Eastern religion, someone using the Dark Side would be rather unenlightened, whereas someone using the light would be more enlightened. A good Jedi teaching in an Eastern mold might be that anyone who uses the Force is a Jedi, but the use of the Dark Side momentarily masks this Truth. That is how I choose to interpret Luke’s assertion after he throws aside his lightsaber.

I think you and I might be talking past what I mean by the Dark Side representing dark emotions. The Dark Side is anything but coping with fear and apathy. If anything, it is letting those emotions define you, and dominate your life. A straightforward example is death. Everyone fears death. Those of the Dark Side will do everything they can to avoid death, to make themselves immortal. Those who follow the light, however, will acknowledge that while death is scary, it is a part of life and try to find ways to find comfort in the fact they will die one day.

Anakin’s fall is another good example. The Jedi teach to avoid connections entirely to avoid fear. Anakin did not get to learn to trust that the Force will do the right thing. Anakin’s fear dominated him. He tried to avoid fate as hard as he could, rather than trying to accept it was a possibility. His fears led him to look into ways of altering reality, and it consumed him into a monster.