The theatrical colors of the Star Wars trilogy — Page 8

DrDre said:

I would like to add, that I believe it’s important to preserve the original theatrical print colors (or one of them) without interpretation, or subjective taste. (emphasis added)

That’s a good point, but once we have one such preservation, giving the film authentic but consistent color in future projects is a worthy goal. Recreating color inconsistencies is a waste of valuable time if they vary from print to print anyway.

yotsuya said:

kk650 said:

yotsuya said:

kk650 said:

DrDre said:

This is a very rough approximation, and is definitely not an accurate color reference, but the Mike Verta scans look something like this:

…whereas the print itself looks something like this:

On my main monitor the top image looks too red and the bottom image looks too blue, you can see it in the highlights on C3PO. There’s a very noticable difference in colour between those two frames, at least to my eyes. Both are oversaturated as well IMHO.

For those interested in comparing, here’s roughly that frame from the new Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 I just uploaded to tehparadox:

The blue highlights on Threepio are the reflection of the sky. This last image also lacks the reds that should be in the faces in the exterior Tatooine shots. The image has been over adjusted to make their skin tones look good when all the on set photos I’ve come across also show very red tones. Basically it has been over corrected. Though my one issue with DrDre’s new scan is that the darker areas seem over saturated to the point where detail is lost, but that could be the print itself. But the colors seem on the money to me. His color sense is excellent and he is using very good equipment to scan the frames.

I’m not exactly sure what you think over corrected means Yotsuya. When I think of over corrected, I think of a frame that had a blanket blue tint like in the second frame and too much is removed in correction, making it too yellow, or a frame that is too contrasty and too much contrast is removed and the frame ends up looking flat and washed out. The first frame has a blanket red tint and the second has a blanket blue tint, both are oversaturated, with too much contrast for home viewing. You are aware that set photos are not 100% reliable when it comes to deciding what the colours/image dynamics in a film should be right? Those set photos get manipulated for publication and the original film footage also gets regraded in post.

It doesn’t matter how red the fleshtones are in set photos, what matters is getting as balanced colours as possible with the frame/transfer you’re working with and that for me means getting the contrast and saturation within normal levels for home viewing, getting fleshtones looking fairly natural relative to the light sources they’re exposed to and getting rid of any blanket tints like the blanket red tint in the first frame and blanket blue tint in the second frame, from the OT films we know the daytime sunlight on tatooine is supposed to be normal for a hot desert country, a warm yellowish colour, not tinted red or blue.

I’m confident that there is no blanket tint in that frame I posted and that the brightness/contrast/saturation settings are correct in the context of the blu-ray’s colour scheme because a single setting was used to grade the vast majority of the film, including this whole scene with Ben. White scenes on Tantive IV and other scenes from the film like the ones below were used to carefully calibrate that single overall setting and remove any blanket tints on the blu-ray and get the best balance of colours possible:

Blu-ray 1:

Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 Regraded 1:

Blu-ray 2:

Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 Regraded 2:

Blu-ray 3:

Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 Regraded 3:

Blu-ray 4:

Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 Regraded 4:

Blu-ray 5:

Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 Regraded 5:

Blu-ray 6:

Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 Regraded 6:

Blu-ray 7:

Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 Regraded 7:

Blu-ray 8:

Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 Regraded 8:

Blu-ray 9:

Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 Regraded 9:

Blu-ray 10:

Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 Regraded 10:

Blu-ray 1:

Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 Regraded 1:

Blu-ray 2:

Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 Regraded 2:

By over correcting I mean that there is a problem with the source and in the process of correcting the problem you take it too far the other way. So the above frames correct the magenta of the BR but leave the frames far yellower than our most accurate sources would indicate. In essence, exchanging one bad color for another (though the yellow is less offensive to the eye). DrDre has posted some awesome color corrections that are generally agreed to be the best the posters to this thread have ever seen the colors. When you overlay the original BR with the above correction, you get something far more pleasing and I feel more accurate.

I do not see a blanket yellow tint in any of my corrected shots Yotsuya and I have a great deal of experience removing blanket yellow tints over many many releases. Check out my releases on tehparadox for many recent examples of removing blanket yellow tints like the recent Arrival blu-ray and The Magnificent Seven remake.

Look at the first comparison, thats where a blanket yellow tint would be most clearly visible and I do not see it, the colours are balanced, the blues are there and accounted for in all the corrected shots and the yellow that is there is meant to be there, at least on the blu-ray.

I know I won’t be able to convince you otherwise, I was much the same in the past with unshakable assumptions about how much red was supposed to be in the fleshtones of Star Wars and I would always make them more yellow/green to avoid them looking too red and sunburnt. Now after a lot of experience regrading I know better and no longer make assumptions about how films are supposed to look and let the colours do the talking. You should take DrDre’s approach and keep an open mind when it comes to how the Original Trilogy is supposed to look.

I look forward to what NeverarGreat and DrDre come up with but will make no conclusions on which of our three releases look the most ‘correct’ colourwise until I can see both their releases in their entirety rather than single frames or in the case of NeverarGreat a short clip or two. You should consider doing the same. I do agree with you that what i’ve seen from both projects look very promising. At least we agree there.

DrDre said:

kk650 said:

DrDre said:

kk650 said:

DrDre said:

kk650 said:

DrDre said:

kk650 said:

DrDre said:

This is a very rough approximation, and is definitely not an accurate color reference, but the Mike Verta scans look something like this:

…whereas the print itself looks something like this:

On my main monitor the top image looks too red and the bottom image looks too blue, you can see it in the highlights on C3PO. There’s a very noticable difference in colour between those two frames, at least to my eyes. Both are oversaturated as well IMHO.

For those interested in comparing, here’s roughly that frame from the new Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 I just uploaded to tehparadox:

It will be interesting to compare your regrade (and others) to the calibrated frame scans, once I’ve digitized them. I have a number of frames of this exact shot. I will also be getting a number of shots of the entry to Mos Eisley scene next week. I’m very interested what that scene looks like. Particulary the color of R5-A2 (orange or yellow?). Once I’ve started the scanning process I will create a separate thread for color references.

I have around 100-200 Star Wars technicolor print frames as well from different parts of the film, I bought them from an ebayer a while back when I was researching the colours for the Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.5, perhaps from the same person you did. They’re lovely to look at but as NeverarGreat said before, the colours can often be inconsistant from shot to shot, meaning every frame can’t be taken as exact colour references unless you plan to replicate those shot by shot colour inconsistancies. I have a feeling that every Star Wars technicolor print also looked a little different from each other colourwise as well.

I’m curious, are you planning to catalog these print scans just as a reference for everybody here to get a better feel for the colours of a Star Wars technicolor print or do you plan on creating a Star Wars release graded to a technicolor print similar to what NeverarGreat has been working on?

It is true that technicolor prints vary in color. However, the original grading itself also suffers from inconsistencies, as poita also noted in the past. I personally feel these need to be replicated for a print restoration project. Of course in color grading a semi-specialised edition the goals are somewhat different, and I would go with what’s aesthetically appealing. I plan to catalogue them as a reference for everybody, but I’m also working on another project, which involves golor grading a print scan. However, to know more about that I advice you to contact williarob.

If I was doing such a print restoration project I would choose the technicolor frame with the best colour that I had from a certain scene and regrade the whole scene to be consistant with that frame. I know that the original Star Wars prints were supposed to be notoriously inconsistant colourwise from shot to shot but I think people watching films now have certain expectations when it comes to consistant colours in a scene on home releases. It’s an option that I think you and williarob should consider.

In my view that would be going into special edition teritory. The color inconsistencies are part of the original viewing experience, just like matte lines, the orange blob, etc. So, for a print restoration I would not try to improve the original presentation. I believe, the goal of a print restoration should be to restore the print to it’s original state.

Hmm, when I think of Special Editions, I think of Jabba in A New Hope, Greedo shooting first and Hayden Christenssen at the end of Return of the Jedi, I think of changed content, not consistant colour grading. I think trying to make the original unaltered theatrical cut of Star Wars more appealing to modern audiences is a worthwhile endevour and doesn’t make it a Special Edition. Does anybody here actually believe that if Disney does release the unaltered Original Trilogy, that they won’t make sure that they maintain colour/fleshtone consistency on a scene by scene basis, even if its not 100% accurate to the theatrical prints?

I think creating an appealing colour consistant version of the original unaltered Star Wars that becomes popular with the mainstream general public could actually be a great way of showing Disney that there’s real interest in these unaltered releases and make it that much more likely that they’ll be released as well when the inevitable 4k remastered Original Trilogy Special Editions come out.

Restoring a print and preparing an official release are two different things in my view. First of all contrast and saturation are different for a print than for a home video release. Secondly the color grading for home video releases are generally somewhat different from the theatrical release, and optimized for home view. This is not the objective of restoring a print. I’m of the opinion it’s oke for the person restoring the print to interpret the colors in the absence of accurate references, but if accurate color references are available, I don’t think it’s the restorer’s job to attempt to improve the colors, which is generally a pretty subjective endeavour. Also, having examined the frames themselves, I don’t believe the color imbalances are such, that anyone watching the films would notice. Consider the fact that home video releases such as the JSC suffer from color imbalances as well, and I only noticed those, when I directly compared frames from different shots.

Ps. I really like the v2.6 grading. It’s a great improvement over the previous version. Great job!

I respect where you’re coming from here DrDre, it reminds me of the debate that’s happening at this very moment about the new Italian 4k remastered Suspiria blu-ray that just came out, the German guy that restored that release said something very similar in defence of colours of his release, the upcoming Synapse release has far more appealing and balanced colours from screencaps they’ve posted on their site and many are attacking the Italian release, saying the colours look muted and dull by comparison. What’s more important, respecting the colours as they originally looked theatrically, warts and all, (assuming of course the German guy is telling the truth about basing his release’s colours on accurate references) or being more pragmatic and creating a more visually appealing, colour balanced released? It’s certainly an interesting question and i’m sure many other 4k remastered releases in future will create similar debates.

I’m very glad you prefer this latest V2.6 release, it required me backtracking on certain assumptions i’d made in the past about how Star Wars was meant to look but that’s all part of the learning experience. Even after all the releases i’ve done I still feel like i’m learning something new with each new regrade.

Memorex said:

This grading is beautiful! Especially the one with Han is like the perfect example of
everything that’s wrong with the Bluray. Really nice 70’ vibe!
Great job on the regrade, to bad there’s some SE stuff in there though… 😉

Blu-ray 6:

Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 Regraded 6:

Very kind of you to say that Memorex, I really appreciate it.

Those Battle of Yavin X-Wing updates make the compromise of having a few CG droids flying around in Mos Eisley completely worth it for me. I really love that Biggs moment with Luke before the Battle of Yavin as well, adds pathos to his sacrifice protecting Luke during the battle.

DrDre said:

kk650 said:

DrDre said:

This is a very rough approximation, and is definitely not an accurate color reference, but the Mike Verta scans look something like this:

…whereas the print itself looks something like this:

On my main monitor the top image looks too red and the bottom image looks too blue, you can see it in the highlights on C3PO. There’s a very noticable difference in colour between those two frames, at least to my eyes. Both are oversaturated as well IMHO.

For those interested in comparing, here’s roughly that frame from the new Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.6 I just uploaded to tehparadox:

It will be interesting to compare your regrade (and others) to the calibrated frame scans, once I’ve digitized them. I have a number of frames of this exact shot. I will also be getting a number of shots of the entry to Mos Eisley scene next week. I’m very interested what that scene looks like. Particulary the color of R5-A2 (orange or yellow?). Once I’ve started the scanning process I will create a separate thread for color references.

Slightly increase the brightness and it would be perfect.

Another two scenes I will be recieving technicolor print frames for in the next few days, that I’m very interested to see, are the Lars dinner scene, and the Obi-Wan shot made famous by the Senator print photos:

Great improvement over the bluray! Keep ‘m comin’

Today I recieved another 500 technicolor frames. I can confirm, that during the Mos Eisley entrance scene the orange/yellow droid R5-A2 is indeed more yellow than orange. The shot where Luke and the gang are stopped by Stormtroopers looks somewhat like this:

Bluray:

Bluray regraded:

DrDre said:

Today I recieved another 500 technicolor frames. I can confirm, that during the Mos Eisley entrance scene the orange/yellow droid R5-A2 is indeed more yellow than orange. The shot where Luke and the gang are stopped by Stormtroopers looks somewhat like this:

Bluray:

Bluray regraded:

More exiting news. Looking forward to seeing what colors you’re going to be able to pull out of those references, Dre.

Here’s an actual photo of one of the frames. While these are not calibrated, the colors are probably a little more yellow than I made them out to be in the regrade:

Here’s the “How are you?” shot:

God the colours are beautiful. I know I’m a minority, but I love the greenish DS walls and the yellow desert scenes

Swazzy said:

That’s still ostensibly too green though, no? It lines up fairly well with the timing of the eBay print:

Photos are never completely reliable. It looks a bit more neutral by eye, but I’ve decided to let go of my expectations, and just be guided by what the print says the technicolor print colors are. One thing is for sure, the walls in this shot are not a saturated blue or teal, more like gray with a hint of green.

pittrek said:

God the colours are beautiful. I know I’m a minority, but I love the greenish DS walls and the yellow desert scenes

I agree, the colors just scream authenticity. 😃

Showing how important it is to have a set of real life eyes on the frame because even your photos (as he said, non calibrated) don’t get us quite from A -> B. LOVE the regrade here Dr. Dre!

Dreamaster said:

Showing how important it is to have a set of real life eyes on the frame because even your photos (as he said, non calibrated) don’t get us quite from A -> B. LOVE the regrade here Dr. Dre!

The photo is closer to the truth, although the photos tend to be more saturated and contrasty than the actual frames. I did the regrade a couple of hours after I looked at the frames. There’s the proof, that memory is not very reliable.

Looking forward to some calibrated scans. Any time estimate for the first ones?