I guess that a lot of Han & Chewie’s time in Jabba’s jail was covering how much Lando had done to help, because Han does go from Lando betraying him and him getting frozen to saving him from the Sarlacc pretty quickly.
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Some people seem to forget there were families on Cloud City. It wasn’t just short pig dudes and bald guys with funky wraparound headphones. 😉
Where were you in '77?
One of the things Rogue One did right was adding weight to Death Star, making it even scarier. When many creators fall into the trap of “even bigger explosions!”, R1 just holds the audience a bit longer in a scene which was so (too?) short in ANH.
That alone helps… but that’s not all.
They’ve successfully tapped into our hidden fears… watching R1 reminded me of certain documentary videos like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWyVd1iKa-I
…which I watch both hypnotized with amazement and paralyzed with fear.
Framing makes a big difference man. Actually seeing the inexorable death that the Death Star represented from the perspective of someone on the planet makes it far scarier than it has ever been. The most frightening part is when you realize that we only saw a fraction of its true power.
I’m dragging this conversation from Off-Topic to here…
[ray_afraid said:]
I disagree that there needs to be a scene with Lando and Han reconciling. Lando did the right thing and Han knows it. I would like a scene where that conversation happens.
I never said there needs to be a certain way it needs to happen, all I said is Lando’s betrayal is unaddressed. I’d be fine with either of the things you suggested, but as is it just seems to be forgotten as if it didn’t even happen, which is weird. There’s simply nothing in the movie that gives us anything other than “How are you, old chum, tra la la!” when the dynamic between the two could have been much more interesting.
Agreed.
[Lord Haeso said:
The only point I disagree with is when you said Luke seeing good in Vader is naive. He surely should have felt something in Vader when he was offered a place at his side. I wish Luke could have said something like “Bringing our father back won’t undo all the things he’s done but it’s a start” or something stating the realistic nature of redeeming the right hand of The Devil.
Handman said:
I just think it was done in a very black and white way, when it could have been much more complicated. Vader’s eventual turn is great, one of my favorite moments in the trilogy, but Luke just believing there’s good in him without really giving any reason (his reaction at the end of ESB didn’t really convince me he felt anything for being offered a place at his side, and that specific point isn’t really addressed in ROTJ), and just the phrase, “The good side!” rubs me the wrong way. It’s not something I felt would have been uttered in the previous films. Luke’s conversation with Ben could have really set up Luke’s motivations, but it’s also a missed opportunity.
Agreed again.
Continuing off from the Last Movie Seen Thread
Make sure to expand these for proper context.
I started watching Return of the Jedi at about 6am, and its issues outweighed the good for the first time. Honestly, it gets worse each time I watch it.
I have been going through a similar experience with ROTJ but I don’t think I’ll ever see it as being anything less than okay. What was the one aspect of the film that caused you to change your opinion?
Nearly every character is misused and flat compared to their dynamic counterparts from the previous films. Han has nothing to do and is stupidly jealous, Lando’s betrayal is not addressed, Leia could be interchangeable with anyone, the sister plot twist has never sat well with me, Vader goes from wanting to overthrow the Emperor to being fine with having Luke kill him to prove a point that doesn’t make sense, the “I can turn him to the good side!” is incredibly naïve and sounds very childish, “A certain point of view?!”, Boba Fett didn’t need to be in the movie, the Ewoks ruin the film’s pacing, I could probably go on. These issues just got to me where the parts I usually enjoyed couldn’t save the film anymore.
Damn that was a good dissection of the films issues. You actually are the one of the first people to be able to fully articulate most of my issues for me. Nostalgia has partially blinded my vision 😉
Coming from a guy who’s gone out of his way to fix most of those issues, I’m very flattered.
I started watching Return of the Jedi at about 6am, and its issues outweighed the good for the first time. Honestly, it gets worse each time I watch it.
I have been going through a similar experience with ROTJ but I don’t think I’ll ever see it as being anything less than okay. What was the one aspect of the film that caused you to change your opinion?
Nearly every character is misused and flat compared to their dynamic counterparts from the previous films. Han has nothing to do and is stupidly jealous, Lando’s betrayal is not addressed, Leia could be interchangeable with anyone, the sister plot twist has never sat well with me, Vader goes from wanting to overthrow the Emperor to being fine with having Luke kill him to prove a point that doesn’t make sense, the “I can turn him to the good side!” is incredibly naïve and sounds very childish, “A certain point of view?!”, Boba Fett didn’t need to be in the movie, the Ewoks ruin the film’s pacing, I could probably go on. These issues just got to me where the parts I usually enjoyed couldn’t save the film anymore.
The only point I disagree with is when you said Luke seeing good in Vader is naive. He surely should have felt something in Vader when he was offered a place at his side. I wish Luke could have said something like “Bringing our father back won’t undo all the things he’s done but it’s a start” or something stating the realistic nature of redeeming the right hand of The Devil.
I agree with this.
I disagree that there needs to be a scene with Lando and Han reconciling. Lando did the right thing and Han knows it. I would like a scene where that conversation happens.
I disagree that there needs to be a scene with Lando and Han reconciling. Lando did the right thing and Han knows it. I would like a scene where that conversation happens.
I never said there needs to be a certain way it needs to happen, all I said is Lando’s betrayal is unaddressed. I’d be fine with either of the things you suggested, but as is it just seems to be forgotten as if it didn’t even happen, which is weird. There’s simply nothing in the movie that gives us anything other than “How are you, old chum, tra la la!” when the dynamic between the two could have been much more interesting.
The only point I disagree with is when you said Luke seeing good in Vader is naive. He surely should have felt something in Vader when he was offered a place at his side. I wish Luke could have said something like “Bringing our father back won’t undo all the things he’s done but it’s a start” or something stating the realistic nature of redeeming the right hand of The Devil.
I just think it was done in a very black and white way, when it could have been much more complicated. Vader’s eventual turn is great, one of my favorite moments in the trilogy, but Luke just believing there’s good in him without really giving any reason (his reaction at the end of ESB didn’t really convince me he felt anything for being offered a place at his side, and that specific point isn’t really addressed in ROTJ), and just the phrase, “The good side!” rubs me the wrong way. It’s not something I felt would have been uttered in the previous films. Luke’s conversation with Ben could have really set up Luke’s motivations, but it’s also a missed opportunity.
In the original two films, it looks like Vader is slowly gaining power, rather than being the right hand of “The Devil”, as you say. His character is pretty different in ROTJ, he doesn’t do any of the dirty work he used to, he just sulks around. It’s odd to me.
One of the things Rogue One did right was adding weight to Death Star, making it even scarier. When many creators fall into the trap of “even bigger explosions!”, R1 just holds the audience a bit longer in a scene which was so (too?) short in ANH.
It would have been scarier if it weren’t even in the movie to begin with.
I disagree that there needs to be a scene with Lando and Han reconciling. Lando did the right thing and Han knows it. I would like a scene where that conversation happens.
I never said there needs to be a certain way it needs to happen, all I said is Lando’s betrayal is unaddressed. I’d be fine with either of the things you suggested, but as is it just seems to be forgotten as if it didn’t even happen, which is weird. There’s simply nothing in the movie that gives us anything other than “How are you, old chum, tra la la!” when the dynamic between the two could have been much more interesting.
The only point I disagree with is when you said Luke seeing good in Vader is naive. He surely should have felt something in Vader when he was offered a place at his side. I wish Luke could have said something like “Bringing our father back won’t undo all the things he’s done but it’s a start” or something stating the realistic nature of redeeming the right hand of The Devil.
I just think it was done in a very black and white way, when it could have been much more complicated. Vader’s eventual turn is great, one of my favorite moments in the trilogy, but Luke just believing there’s good in him without really giving any reason (his reaction at the end of ESB didn’t really convince me he felt anything for being offered a place at his side, and that specific point isn’t really addressed in ROTJ), and just the phrase, “The good side!” rubs me the wrong way. It’s not something I felt would have been uttered in the previous films. Luke’s conversation with Ben could have really set up Luke’s motivations, but it’s also a missed opportunity.
In the original two films, it looks like Vader is slowly gaining power, rather than being the right hand of “The Devil”, as you say. His character is pretty different in ROTJ, he doesn’t do any of the dirty work he used to, he just sulks around. It’s odd to me.
An exchange between Han and Lando was scripted (the sandstorm scene) but no idea if it was actually shot.
http://www.starwarsholidayspecial.com/swcs/episode6/sandstorm.html
Luke and Artoo take off in their spacecraft.
HAN (looking dubiously at Lando, obviously remembering his friend’s betrayal and subsequent aide)
Guess I owe you some thanks, too, Lando.
LANDO
Figured if I left you frozen like that you’d just give me bad luck the rest of my life, so I might as well get you unfrozen sooner or later.
LEIA
He means “You’re welcome.”
LANDO
Come on, let’s get off this miserable dust ball.
As for Vader, he was changing already at the end of ESB. His encounter with Luke started an internal conflict, or reawakened an old one. Note nobody gets strangled for letting the Falcon escape.
Where were you in '77?
Interesting, I wish that scene made it in, and I can’t detract the criticism based on deleted material, as the issue is still prevalent in the film nonetheless.
You mention a good point with Vader, I suppose the dynamic between him and the Emperor just doesn’t really jive well with what he was doing in the previous films. It makes more sense that he’s sulking around, there’s just something off about it. I’ll have to ponder some more as to why that is.
As for Vader, he was changing already at the end of ESB. His encounter with Luke started an internal conflict, or reawakened an old one. Note nobody gets strangled for letting the Falcon escape.
Having seen Empire Strikes Back hundreds of times on VHS and SD television, I don’t think the resolution was ever good enough for me to notice Vader turn his head and look over at Piett in the last couple frames where he’s walking off the Executor bridge. The camera just cuts to him from behind, and for all we know he’s looking at the ground, completely lost in his thoughts and oblivious to all the officers who are standing nearby afraid for their lives.
It was a negative surprise for me when I was watching Despecialized recently and caught that head turn, and I think it diminishes the scene a little bit. I think it could have been better directed, or at least cut a few frames sooner.
One of the things Rogue One did right was adding weight to Death Star, making it even scarier. When many creators fall into the trap of “even bigger explosions!”, R1 just holds the audience a bit longer in a scene which was so (too?) short in ANH.
It would have been scarier if it weren’t even in the movie to begin with.
Considering the fact that I’ve never been properly scared of the Death Star until seeing Rogue One I’m going to have to disagree with you.
Vader would have been so much scarier if we never saw him.
I would put this in my sig if I weren’t so lazy.
One of the things Rogue One did right was adding weight to Death Star, making it even scarier. When many creators fall into the trap of “even bigger explosions!”, R1 just holds the audience a bit longer in a scene which was so (too?) short in ANH.
It would have been scarier if it weren’t even in the movie to begin with.
Considering the fact that I’ve never been properly scared of the Death Star until seeing Rogue One I’m going to have to disagree with you.
Well we pretty much disagree on everything Star Wars related, so I’m not surprised. You can write the script so that the characters express the danger of the Death Star through their acting and dialogue, and what is going on in the plot, rather than just cramming everything on screen.
Are you a fan of the SE wampa by any chance?
Vader would have been so much scarier if we never saw him.
Are you going to make an anthology film that is to be viewed after the audience has already seen Vader in a bunch of movies? Yeah, depending on the plot, you may not need Vader in the movie either.
Seriously, watch how Rick gets introduced in Casablanca. There is a great example. The other characters talk about him for almost a half hour before he even shows up in the movie. There are many ways to get things across on film besides just showing someone or something on the screen.
One of the things Rogue One did right was adding weight to Death Star, making it even scarier. When many creators fall into the trap of “even bigger explosions!”, R1 just holds the audience a bit longer in a scene which was so (too?) short in ANH.
It would have been scarier if it weren’t even in the movie to begin with.
Considering the fact that I’ve never been properly scared of the Death Star until seeing Rogue One I’m going to have to disagree with you.
Well we pretty much disagree on everything Star Wars related, so I’m not surprised. You can write the script so that the characters express the danger of the Death Star through their acting and dialogue, and what is going on in the plot, rather than just cramming everything on screen.
Actually as I recall the film does both as Cassian and that dude he killed in cold blood were scared shitless of it. Also I’m failing to see the line between screen cluttering in this film and screen cluttering in STAR WARS. Does that really even matter though? Seems like a nitpick to me to me but eh.
Are you a fan of the SE wampa by any chance?
That’s quite a leap.
Vader would have been so much scarier if we never saw him.
He’s scarier in this movie than he was in STAR WARS…
I don’t know what you mean by screen cluttering. That’s not what I was talking about. I was arguing that you could write the script and plot in such a way that you don’t need to even have the Death Star in the movie, and yet the movie could still be about the Death Star. It could even be easily conveyed as a very scary, existential threat to the Alliance and freedom-lovers all over the galaxy, without even being shown one time on screen. But that’s obviously not the creative choice that was made. Although I wish it had been.
Lord Haseo said:
That’s one way they could have done it but it definitely isn’t the only viable option…
Are we talking about Vader in Rogue One? Don’t get me started… that was pretty schlocky.
I was googling for old EAT restaurant signs to make a “they forgot the me!” joke, (ala MST3K) then I belatedly noticed the name of this place. 😃
Where were you in '77?
Are we talking about Vader in Rogue One? Don’t get me started… that was pretty schlocky.
Maybe the first scene. Maybe (I personally like it). His last scene though? It’s nothing short of incredible.
I was googling for old EAT restaurant signs to make a “they forgot the me!” joke, (ala MST3K) then I belatedly noticed the name of this place. 😃
Why would I want to eat Olie’s coffee shop? That seems rude, nor do I like coffee all that much to begin with.
Are we talking about Vader in Rogue One? Don’t get me started… that was pretty schlocky.
Maybe the first scene. Maybe (I personally like it). His last scene though? It’s nothing short of incredible.
Incredibly schlocky. I’m the only one who seems to think that around here.
Are we talking about Vader in Rogue One? Don’t get me started… that was pretty schlocky.
Maybe the first scene. Maybe (I personally like it). His last scene though? It’s nothing short of incredible.
Incredibly schlocky. I’m the only one who seems to think that around here.
No, you’re probably not the only one. Plenty of people are wrong about things 😛
It was schlocky and it was fantastic.