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Are The Prequels That Bad? — Page 7

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Mithrandir said:

This bullet is an old one.
In 1897, it was fired at the president of Uruguay by a young man from Montevideo, Arredondo, who had spent long weeks without seeing anyone so that the world might know that he acted alone. Thirty years earlier, Lincoln had been murdered by that same ball, by the criminal or magical hand of an actor transformed by the words of Shakespeare into Marcus Brutus, Caesar’s murderer. In the mid-seventeenth century, vengeance had employed it for the assassination of Sweden’s Gustavus Adolphus in the midst of the public hecatomb of battle.
In earlier times, the bullet had been other things, because Pythagorean metempsychosis is not reserved for humankind alone. It was the silken cord given to viziers in the East, the rifles and bayonets that cut down the defenders of the Alamo, the triangular blade that slit a queen’s throat, the wood of the Cross and the dark nails that pierced the flesh of the Redeemer, the poison kept by the Carthaginian chief in an iron ring on his finger, the serene goblet that Socarates drank down one evening.
In the dawn of time it was the stone that Cain hurled at Abel, and in the future it shall be many things that we cannot even imagine today, but that will be able to put an end to men and their wondrous, fragile life.
*J L Borges (1899-1986) In Memoriam J.F.K. *

Just found this eloquent.

Provided that what happens in both scenes is essentially the same plot device, and very similar in its features, all you can have to be different, in order not to upset most of people is location, illumination, characters… perhaps even motivations. Summing up details. Both scenes are different in only in details, at least to me.

What feels somewhat wrong is that having those characters and their motivations be different (these are details, because the main thing is that the character’s roles are exactly the same), the dialogue remains way too similar, and the thing that changes, which is the location, does so in an diametrically opposite way to what I would have expected. A patricide, if anything, is too much of an intimate crime, more akin to a small-scale set than to a monumental location (which would have fit better ObiWan vs Vader, had I to choose).

That’s where it began, before I just deviated from topic.

EDIT: The interrogation scene didn’t bother me much. While obviously these are personal impressions, had I to give one not-so-subjective justification, I’d say that Rey’s role in TFA is SW’s Luke, not Leia.

I suppose if what you’re looking for in film is just the “what,” and the overarching plot, that’s fine. But to me that’s only a fraction of what’s there. You’re overlooking so much of importance when you say it’s only details. Think that way if you please, but I frankly feel that outlook is monumentally misguided.

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Literally couldn’t have said it better myself.

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DominicCobb said:

I suppose if what you’re looking for in film is just the “what,” and the overarching plot, that’s fine. But to me that’s only a fraction of what’s there. You’re overlooking so much of importance when you say it’s only details. Think that way if you please, but I frankly feel that outlook is monumentally misguided.

It’s not the “what”. Given that the “what” is so similar from a role point of view, the “how” should have been by force more different than what it was in the end.

Why not have Kylo shoot Han down in a dogfight while speaking to him on the radio,
Or have him executed by a platoon, or… they had plenty of ground to be creative. Far more than there was with the PT, which had its outline already written.

But no, it had to have that samurai-esque thing of making speeches, standing tense, etc.
If you find the word rehash a little too strong, then take repetitive. Because that is what it is to have already three stories about orphans who go out for adventure and find a destiny bigger than life while destroying a superweapon and face the evil that kills their adopting fathers.

One of the things I like most of RO is how quotidian and disengaged (some would say anticlimatic) it feels at times.

*we’ll find him, and bring him back!..and then he will tell them himself"

Check how that line was delivered. It’s something we have never seen in Star Wars so far.

Your son is gone and speaking of one’s former self in third person while trying to affirmate a totally made up identity, we’ve already seen that.

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Yeah but see “why” to me is most important of all. Either of the alternatives you suggested would have missed the point of the why entirely.

Your son is gone and speaking of one’s former self in third person while trying to affirmate a totally made up identity, we’ve already seen that.

But the why is completely different. When Vader says it he’s talking about a life he left behind decades before. When Kylo says it he’s talking about a life he’s in the process of trying to force behind him. The similarity is obvious but it’s there to highlight the difference, which is the key.

If you find the word rehash a little too strong, then take repetitive. Because that is what it is to have already three stories about orphans who go out for adventure and find a destiny bigger than life while destroying a superweapon and face the evil that kills their adopting fathers.

I wouldn’t use either word, necessarily. We give George shit but I’d say “rhyming” is exactly what it is. To me, that basic plot IS Star Wars. To me it’s like a myth or legend, which is how I see the saga. It’s told differently each time but it always comes down to that basic framework. And I think it’s fitting - it’s right there from the beginning. Star Wars has always been about fate and destiny. And the original film was built on classic myths and legends. We’ve seen the hero rescue the princess countless times on film before. It’s how Star Wars does it differently that’s important.

If you see the saga differently that’s totally fair. But I find the repetitions with significant deviations rather fitting.

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Anchorhead said:

dahmage said:

The prequels are bad, because they have made us look for problems everywhere. They set a bad precedent for how star wars fans should behave.

I put most of that on Lucas, not the films themselves. Had he only made the bad films, the two camps may have been less venomous. Still divided perhaps, but possibly more along generational lines or style preferences. Instead, Lucas set about dividing the fans into teams with all of his CGI revisions and lying about the 1970s.

He created the division where you either like the real Star Wars or you like the 1977 theatrical Star Wars. For deep fans of the prequels, that was license to criticize the fans who were liking Star Wars incorrectly. He created that fire and continued to add fuel to it until he jumped ship and left the huge mess behind.

that is also a good point, i agree.

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I admit I have a soft spot for TPM. I watched it for the first time in October '99 for my eleventh birthday and the experience still feels fond. I’ve never seen it with rose glasses, though. Something about it felt a bit off even then and, as much as I did laugh initially at Jar-Jar Binks, even my eleven years old self knew the character was far too much over the top and in-your-face by the end of the movie. I won’t go into the movie’s fault, of which there are many, as these have been discussed in detail here and elsewhere to no end.

It did have great moment, though! The space scenes were visually gorgeous, probably the best in all the Star Wars movies - think the initial Trade Federation blockade and invasion, the royal ship escaping through the blockade, and the final star fighter battle. It had a fantastic lightsaber duel, decent firefights in the royal palace and courtyard (definitely best in the entire PT), the droid army actually looked semi-competent and a credible threat after stomping the Gungans. Ewan McGregar and Liam Neeson were a great duo on screen. TPM had not only tangible sets but the locations were interesting, magical even. The movie has a fantastic soundtrack. And in its theatrical release, prior to that pink-hued, DNR bloated garbage home release, TPM just looks beautiful. At rare times, it does manage to capture the magical feeling of a galaxy far, far away the OT has.

Then came the couple of other prequels…

Horrible dialogue and acting, nonsensical and heavy-handed plot, bland directing aside, I think the greatest fault is that both AotC and RotS fall in that “uncanny valley” feeling. Especially the latter. The digital sets just look off. Not “fake”, off. When I watch RotJ now, I can clearly see scenes that I know are “fake”, composed shots of matte paintings, decors, and props. But they’re still real, tangible. The actors are actually “there”, even if that “there” is just a set. It gives a lifelike quality to it* that neither AotC nor RotS have. They just feel empty, sterile, flat even.

There’s a single scene from either AotC or RotS that actually is visually appealing to me, and that’s Jango and Obi-Wan’s star fighter duel. Everything else looks like an early 2000s video game pretending to be a movie. It just doesn’t work.

I applaud Lucas for trying to push cinematic technology but even with everything about them as-is, AotC and RotS would have been better movies if had stuck with actual film, real sets and props instead of going full-on, bluescreen only.

  • Not to mention that a properly restored OT with digital retouching used to just clear matte lines and help compositing can dramatically improve the SFX (think Adywan’s Revisited), something that cannot be done for the Prequels.
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Burdokva said:

I applaud Lucas for trying to push cinematic technology but even with everything about them as-is, AotC and RotS would have been better movies if had stuck with actual film, real sets and props instead of going full-on, bluescreen only.

Preferences are fine but regardless of what you think of the films it’s not objectively better or worse depending on what medium it’s shot on or what tools are used; it’s how those things are used, not the existence of them.
TFA has more CGI than TPM, some of it sloppier than parts of TPM, but rightfully nobody cares because it doesn’t matter.
There were also an insane amount of real sets and props in the PT, but we won’t get into that because anything positive said about the PT on here leads to pages of rhetoric.

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The digital tech used for the PT was in its infancy at the time. There were always going to be growing pains. Not surprising that Lucas took the opportunity to use it on films he intended to be deliberately bad.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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Burdokva said:

I applaud Lucas for trying to push cinematic technology but even with everything about them as-is, AotC and RotS would have been better movies if had stuck with actual film, real sets and props instead of going full-on, bluescreen only.

They’d still be just as bad. Real sets won’t fix a broken story. Real props won’t fix bad writing. Real film won’t fix bad performances.
If the films had a well plotted story, good writing and good performances the lousy effects would be forgivable. It doesn’t work the other way around.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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Kellythatsit said:

Because of harmy I’ve been able to show my boys the OUT.

Unfortunately, a friend of theirs recently showed them the 2004 DVD Special Edition.

They now prefer that version.

That friend has been banned from my house.

You already showed them the OUT first and then later on someone showed them the SE and now you banned that kid from your house because of that? That is just stupid. They would see the SE sooner or later, whether you like it or not. Acting like a paranoid dictator and trying to censor things like that is obsessive behaviour. Ironically, reminds me of the behaviour of a certain person who did not want us ever to see theatrical versions again.

真実

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imperialscum said:

Kellythatsit said:

Because of harmy I’ve been able to show my boys the OUT.

Unfortunately, a friend of theirs recently showed them the 2004 DVD Special Edition.

They now prefer that version.

That friend has been banned from my house.

You already showed them the OUT first and then later on someone showed them the SE and now you banned that kid from your house because of that? That is just stupid. They would see the SE sooner or later, whether you like it or not. Acting like a paranoid dictator and trying to censor things like that is obsessive behaviour. Ironically, reminds me of the behaviour of a certain person who did not want us ever to see theatrical versions again.

I’m sure your uninformed parenting advice is greatly appreciated.

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I recently watched ROTS for the first time in about 8 years. Well no I didn’t really, what do you take me for? What I mean is that I came across Star War: Backstroke of the West complete with the whole thing dubbed as per the bizarre translation in that version. You can find it on youtube. What struck me was that beyond chuckling at the lunacy of what was being said about the Presbyterian Church and Master Tile Ratio… it was actually just boring. The action scenes are clearly all planned out by second units and effects departments, and they’re the only things with any sort of energy to them.

As films they lack what makes a film enjoyable, aka characters, charm, wit, emotion. Minor details. While I have a lot of issues with TFA it does at least have some level of heart and that missing energy at least. I really dig Kylo even if he’s just another Marvel esque emo with daddy issues like Loki and Ultron. It holds more weight in terms of impact than those at least. Anyway, the prequels. Do they even work as prequels? I sure don’t see the arcs matching up or the basic connecting threads being given any time or attention. So I can’t enjoy them as films and …they don’t work as their intended function as back story. I’d hate to imagine what good/bad means to fans of these.

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TV’s Frink said:

imperialscum said:

Kellythatsit said:

Because of harmy I’ve been able to show my boys the OUT.

Unfortunately, a friend of theirs recently showed them the 2004 DVD Special Edition.

They now prefer that version.

That friend has been banned from my house.

You already showed them the OUT first and then later on someone showed them the SE and now you banned that kid from your house because of that? That is just stupid. They would see the SE sooner or later, whether you like it or not. Acting like a paranoid dictator and trying to censor things like that is obsessive behaviour. Ironically, reminds me of the behaviour of a certain person who did not want us ever to see theatrical versions again.

I’m sure your uninformed parenting advice is greatly appreciated.

It is not a parenting advice. It is not an advice at all. It is just the truth.

真実

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imperialscum said:

TV’s Frink said:

imperialscum said:

Kellythatsit said:

Because of harmy I’ve been able to show my boys the OUT.

Unfortunately, a friend of theirs recently showed them the 2004 DVD Special Edition.

They now prefer that version.

That friend has been banned from my house.

You already showed them the OUT first and then later on someone showed them the SE and now you banned that kid from your house because of that? That is just stupid. They would see the SE sooner or later, whether you like it or not. Acting like a paranoid dictator and trying to censor things like that is obsessive behaviour. Ironically, reminds me of the behaviour of a certain person who did not want us ever to see theatrical versions again.

I’m sure your uninformed parenting advice is greatly appreciated.

It is not a parenting advice. It is not an advice at all. It is just the truth.

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imperialscum said:

Kellythatsit said:

Because of harmy I’ve been able to show my boys the OUT.

Unfortunately, a friend of theirs recently showed them the 2004 DVD Special Edition.

They now prefer that version.

That friend has been banned from my house.

You already showed them the OUT first and then later on someone showed them the SE and now you banned that kid from your house because of that? That is just stupid. They would see the SE sooner or later, whether you like it or not. Acting like a paranoid dictator and trying to censor things like that is obsessive behaviour. Ironically, reminds me of the behaviour of a certain person who did not want us ever to see theatrical versions again.

Umm…the comment about the kid being banned was tongue in cheek.

Apologies if that wasn’t obvious

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Kellythatsit said:

imperialscum said:

Kellythatsit said:

Because of harmy I’ve been able to show my boys the OUT.

Unfortunately, a friend of theirs recently showed them the 2004 DVD Special Edition.

They now prefer that version.

That friend has been banned from my house.

You already showed them the OUT first and then later on someone showed them the SE and now you banned that kid from your house because of that? That is just stupid. They would see the SE sooner or later, whether you like it or not. Acting like a paranoid dictator and trying to censor things like that is obsessive behaviour. Ironically, reminds me of the behaviour of a certain person who did not want us ever to see theatrical versions again.

Umm…the comment about the kid being banned was tongue in cheek.

Apologies if that wasn’t obvious

I wouldn’t offer the good snacks to him/her. My little cousin said Jar Jar was really funny (He’s 8 and watched the Clone Wars on Netflix) and I joked I was tempted to push him out of the car. But I took him to the Force Awakens, he became obsessed with TIE Fighters and everything worked out great.

It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher

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 (Edited)

Kellythatsit said:

imperialscum said:

Kellythatsit said:

Because of harmy I’ve been able to show my boys the OUT.

Unfortunately, a friend of theirs recently showed them the 2004 DVD Special Edition.

They now prefer that version.

That friend has been banned from my house.

You already showed them the OUT first and then later on someone showed them the SE and now you banned that kid from your house because of that? That is just stupid. They would see the SE sooner or later, whether you like it or not. Acting like a paranoid dictator and trying to censor things like that is obsessive behaviour. Ironically, reminds me of the behaviour of a certain person who did not want us ever to see theatrical versions again.

Umm…the comment about the kid being banned was tongue in cheek.

Apologies if that wasn’t obvious

You must forgive Imp’scum. He doesn’t allow common sense to stand in the way of The Truth™.

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Kellythatsit said:

imperialscum said:

Kellythatsit said:

Because of harmy I’ve been able to show my boys the OUT.

Unfortunately, a friend of theirs recently showed them the 2004 DVD Special Edition.

They now prefer that version.

That friend has been banned from my house.

You already showed them the OUT first and then later on someone showed them the SE and now you banned that kid from your house because of that? That is just stupid. They would see the SE sooner or later, whether you like it or not. Acting like a paranoid dictator and trying to censor things like that is obsessive behaviour. Ironically, reminds me of the behaviour of a certain person who did not want us ever to see theatrical versions again.

Umm…the comment about the kid being banned was tongue in cheek.

Apologies if that wasn’t obvious

It was obvious. Nobody thought you were serious.

The Person in Question

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Lord Haseo said:
I’m also curious as to your opinion on the Rey interrogation scene and how similar it is to Leia’s interrogation scene.

It’s nothing close to Leia’s interrogation scene, which contains some horror elements and was intercut into the sequence where Luke’s relatives get incinerated to death.

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While I do think the prequels had some potentially interesting ideas (and TPM actually felt very visually inspired to me, unlike AOTC and ROTS), they’re otherwise genuinely terrible movies in almost every way. I cannot conceive how anyone other than children could find enjoyment from watching them. These movies have the opposite of chemistry or relatable characters, and even the action scenes are ruined by being overblown visual noise.

So, yes, the prequels are bad, and you should feel bad if you like them unironically.

A part of me wishes that there could be a large-scale fan project, a “replacement” trilogy featuring completely rewritten scripts and practical effects. Would be very expensive (especially with all expenditures being out-of-pocket, since crowdfunding would be illegal), as well as difficult to find consensus in the writing as there would be so many different ideas of how it should go. Ah, well, I can dream.

Frog blast the vent core!

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4-6 for me will always be THE Star Wars but I refuse to slack on the PT. Do they have flaws?? Sure but they have their moments. Most of the lightsaber duels were intense and it had some great sets. In the end I just say for better or worse they gave us the story that preceded the films that we love. Are the Prequels bad? No. Could they be better?? Yes.

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JawsTDS said:

Edgy.

I do my best. 😛

(I feel I should clarify that line was more of a joke than anything)

Frog blast the vent core!