Harmy's THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK Despecialized Edition HD - V2.0 - MKV & AVCHD (Released) — Page 135

Swift S. Lawliet said:

Excuse me, but how do I convert the raw .wav files of the 1993 mixes from schorman’s collection to DTS-HD Master Audio?

I am planning on doing a separate MKA with lossless 1993 mixes since Harmy only added the 1993 mixes in lossy Dolby Digital format.

I know the 1993 mixes aren’t theatrical mixes but I am partial to them since they were the most polished pre-1997 mixes IMO and are my favorite.

To encode the .wav file of the 2-channel ’93 mix to DTS-HD MA bitstream, you’ll need the software, DTS Master Suite and that costs $1500.

A much cheaper and effective alternative would be to download the free audio software, Audacity, sync up the ‘93 two-channel mix to the audio of the despecialized edition, and save your edit as one 2-channel .wav file. Your new edited .wav file of the ’93 mix will still be lossless–no compression is applied. Then, add (or mux) your new wav file to the MKV video using another free software, MKVToolNix

That is how I did it when I edited schorman13’s LaserDisc audio rip of Raiders of the Lost Ark to fit litemakr’s Raiders LPP scan.

There seems to be some confusion about the audio tracks . . . CatBus explained it well, so I’ll reiterate what he said to make sure it’s clear.

The Empire Strikes Back had two versions of the film released in theaters: the 70mm cut, which visually was about 99% complete and had a six-channel mix; and the more familiar 35mm cut, which had a two-channel mix and some small refinements to some effects and editing. The 70mm mix and the 35mm mix are both largely derived from a common source, the original four-track master tape, which had a channel arrangement of Left, Right, Center, and Surround channels. The 70mm mix contained those four channels exactly as they were, plus two tracks devoted solely to bass content. It is a powerful track with a lot of dynamic range and plenty of low frequency support. The stereo mix contains the original four tracks folded down into two, and is intended to be expanded back into four channels during playback with Dolby Prologic or something similar. Its dynamics and bass are reduced appropriately to fit into the technical limitations of optical film audio. There are a few very minor differences between the two versions, but nothing really noteworthy. For the most part they sound exactly the same in content and mixing balance.

Since the 70mm mix was only ever used with the earlier cut of the film, and every subsequent release used the completed 35mm edit, technically I could not call my 5.1 version a reproduction of the 70mm audio because it would not match up with the timing of the 35mm edit, and I don’t really have a way to duplicate some of the small changes it included. Therefore, I elected to make a multichannel version, with the full dynamics and bass which that entails, that matched up with the 35mm edit we actually have available for viewing. The best source for this was the 1993 laserdisc, which was actually derived from that same original four-track master the theatrical mixes came from. I converted it up to five channels so that I could bundle it with a custom LFE track (the .1) for additional bass. The result is virtually identical to what the 1993 version sounds like when it is upmixed in a receiver, but with a stronger low end presence. So while it isn’t an exact match for what was heard in theaters, it is nonetheless very authentic in its design. The 35mm cut never had a six-track mix made for it, but if it had, it probably would have sounded quite similar to what I did.

For those worried that the number of channels isn’t high enough compared to the Bluray, or that it isn’t surround-y enough, don’t fret. Like CatBus said, it isn’t just a regular stereo mix that’s been spread out; there is plenty of real surround sound going on. Just listen to the launch of the probe droids in the very beginning and you’ll hear them passing into the rear channels as they leave the Star Destroyer. There’s plenty of other things of that nature throughout the movie, and you can hear all kinds of ambient sounds on Dagobah in the surrounds as well. The rear channels are also better balanced in the original mix compared to the special edition: in the SE, they couldn’t resist the temptation to make the surrounds really loud and flashy, which is distracting and calls too much attention to itself in a bad way. The original mix had more seamless panning from front to back and was really well done. Everything blends together nicely, while the SE never achieves that level of cohesion.

In short, you’ll get an excellent aural experience with the 5.1, as well as plenty of authenticity. I’ll add my standard reminder that it only really sounds the way it should on an actual 5.1 system, and that when viewing the films on a stereo system, the stereo mix will give a better result. The version of that I chose from schorman’s archive was the 1989 Special Widescreen Edition laserdisc, which seems to be the most dynamic version of the stereo mix ever put on home video. It too sounds excellent, and I highly recommend it. If you don’t want lots of bass, you can upmix that and it gives just as good a surround experience as the 5.1 does.

moviefreakedmind said:

Yes that’s what I’m referring to. The only changes I’m aware of being in the DE are the missing shell casings, a panel on the floor behind Vader being lit up on the Star Destroyer, and a frame where the sky immediately darkens when Luke enters Cloud City (which isn’t really a change so much as a coloring bug).

There are some recomped shots as Luke hangs from the bottom of cloud city as well.

Moth3r said:

What are the minor differences between the 35mm and the 70mm audio? I seem to remember something about a missing effect during the snowspeeder crash.

I think that the lightsaber sound when Luke exits the Wampa’s cave is clear in the 70mm but almost inaudible in the 35mm (at least on home video).

So wait does the stereo theatrical mix from the laserdisc actually sound better than the blu rays (content aside) or are people just being dramatic? Legitimate question because I’m working on my own personal custom mux of the film.

Really? Very interesting. I guess I’ll use that mix then I prefer punch and impact over clarity and noise especially since the 1980 mix sounds good anyway not like it’s fuzzy or indirect sounding anyway) and just patch in the se audio to fix some of the bad music cuts I’m the original version.

I think the 1997 mix is the best for the original star wars though. It sounds really good. Doesn’t suffer from the muffled and worn out sound of the original (listen to the music cues where the music gets loud over scene transitions… Some of those sound just awful) yet it also doesn’t have the problem of every line of dialogue sounding like a different take and quality and sounding blared and clipped that every version 2004 and onward has, so it’s the best of both worlds.

CatBus said:

Possessed said:

I think the 1997 mix is the best for the original star wars though. It sounds really good.

Agreed. SE changes aside, the 97 mixes were very good. They didn’t start really mucking things up in general until 2004. Same with the colors.

Indeed. For my personal a new hope I used the 97 mix and just used the pcm 93 mix to patch over se nonsense.

But empire strikes backs theatrical audio mix doesn’t have the sound quality problems that anh’s does so that’ll make it easier.

Actually I prefer dolby surround over dolby digital as a format anyway. More versatile. Want surround effects? Got it. Don’t have surround? No problem still sounds good in stereo. Less bitrate required to sound good, or you can have the same bit rate and have very little compression artifacts.

Moth3r said:

What are the minor differences between the 35mm and the 70mm audio? I seem to remember something about a missing effect during the snowspeeder crash.

Am I correct in thinking that the list of audio differences in the wikipedia article is incorrect and actually represents differences between the theatrical and SE mix?

Yes, the wikipedia article on this is totally wrong. The changes it lists are just differences for the SE, and have nothing to do with the 70mm version. For a long time, since there was no recording of the 70 for anyone to check against, it was often assumed that it must have contained many of these SE differences; but once the in-theater recording surfaced, this rumor was proved to be incorrect. In actuality, it is very nearly identical to the 35mm version. In addition to the in-theater recording, morgands1 also provided a link to an article from 1981 where the mixing of The Empire Strikes Back is specifically discussed, in which the mixers say outright the two were very close, and that very few changes were made for the 35.

That article can be found here: http://www.in70mm.com/news/2015/mixing/index.htm

Most of the differences between the 70 and the 35 are so small as to be virtually inconsequential. Here is a complete list from what I remember:

1. The sound of Luke’s lightsaber deactivating as he leaves the Wampa cave is clearly audible in the 70, while in the 35 it is greatly reduced in level. This was probably changed because he is far from the camera and moving away.

2. When the walkers first open fire in the snow battle, the explosions are significantly louder in the 35.

3. One of the snowspeeder attacks on an Imperial walker uses a laser sound normally used for TIE fighters. In the 35 this was changed to the X-wing laser sound, which the speeders use everywhere else in the snow battle.

4. When 3PO says “R2, you take good care of Master Luke now, understand? And . . . do take good care of yourself,” the word ‘and’ is clearly audible. In the 35, the ‘and’ has been reduced significantly in level. (Not sure of the reasoning behind this one; perhaps it was to make him sound less hesitant in telling R2 to take care.)

5. In the transition from Dagobah to the Imperial fleet after the cave scene, a different TIE fighter sound effect is heard.

6. The end scene is edited completely differently. It does not contain tracked music from earlier in the film, as it does in the 35, due to the scene being shorter. Lando’s line “When we find Jabba the Hutt and that bounty hunter, we’ll contact you,” is absent. His lines “Luke, we’re ready for takeoff,” and “Princess, we’ll find Han. I promise,” are different takes.

That’s it. There are no other changes in content between the 70mm and 35mm mixes of Empire. The re-editing of the last scene, which was mainly done to accommodate the insertion of additional shots of the rebel ships, is by far the largest change, and the only one that is particularly significant. While it might be possible to recreate the other changes by editing in bits of other mixes, the end scene would be difficult. Perhaps not impossible, but there wouldn’t be any point unless the picture were also edited to match the difference in length; and there wouldn’t be any point in that unless the other visual differences could also be reproduced.

The 8mm version, contrary to what was stated earlier, is not at all the same as the 70mm. While it does use a number of the early visual composites created for the 70 which were replaced in the 35, the audio track is entirely separate, and its numerous differences in ADR are not present in the 70mm mix.

The snowspeeder crash sound being missing in the 1993 mix is an odd error that doesn’t appear in any other version. Both the 35mm and 70mm mixes do have it. My theory is that the four-track master omitted it mistakenly, and that it wasn’t corrected on that copy because only parts of the mix would have been re-recorded for later changes. Therefore, this early mistake ended up on home video even though it had already been fixed for the theatrical releases. That’s the danger of going back to earlier generation copies: better sound quality is obtained, but any later changes may not be present.

I actually love to talk about dolby surround vs Discrete surround, but we should probably not clutter this thread anymore with it. (I accept full responsibility for starting it however)

CatBus said:

Revolution said:

CatBus said:

yaboykevin01 said:

What is the difference between the 5.1 1980 mix and the 2.0 1980 mix? Are there any content differences, or are they just mixed through more channels?

Also, does the 16mm mono track differ from those two in any way?

IIRC, the 5.1 1980 mix is just the matrixed stereo upmixed to 5.1, with some of the LFE channel from other sources like the Blu-rays where they still seem decent. In other words, it’s a nice, tasteful upmix of the stereo mix. Unlike Star Wars, it is NOT an attempt to reproduce the original six-channel mix. And unlike Jedi, we know that there are content differences from the six-channel mix, but the six-channel mix didn’t apply to this cut of the film. So no content differences, just more channels, technically not theatrical but not actively revisionist in any way.

The 16mm track is way different. C-3PO gets some different lines (ones that later showed up in the Special Editions), and the mixing is occasionally a bit different too.

So in other words the 5.1 is just stereo? It does sound amazing but just interested as i thought it was a pure 5.1 source. Is there any interest in obtaining a true 5.1 source or using the 6.1 source from the blu rays etc?

• Rev

No, it’s an upmix of matrixed stereo, not plain stereo, which gives you 4 distinct channels. Mix in the LFE and it’s true 4.1, upmixed to 5.1. The channels aren’t as distinct as a modern discrete mix but they’re distinct enough. However, it is just the stereo mix, i.e. sound effects and dialogue specific to the stereo mix. No content from the original mono or six-channel mixes.

The point of the 1980 six-channel mix is to be authentic yet multichannel. You could certainly get more channels from the Blu-ray, but you’d lose everything else–quality, authenticity, etc. 4.1/5.1 is about as good as you can expect in this regards when the cadillac best-of-breed audio in 1980 was 4.2. The only thing theoretically better would be a preservation of the 70mm version of the video with accompanying six-channel audio, but that’s unlikely–and frankly I don’t like the 70mm cut as well, so what we have now is still better, IMO.

alexp120 said:

It is possible to insert 6.1 sound from the Blu Ray to the Despecialized edition, however the Blu Ray is the special edition cut with added shots not seen in the Despecialized edition.

Also the audio quality on the Blu-rays is fairly tragic, so if you can find a nice, alternative lossless source (which we have), you’ll end up with considerably better results than anything using the Blu-rays as a significant source. You’re not going to improve anything by pulling in audio from an inferior source, regardless of the nominal channels.

Thanks for clarifying. Is there even a true source of the 70mm 6 channel audio?
I’m sure Harmy would’ve included it if he had access to it…

Either way the stero up mix to 5.1 sounds amazing. Was just shocked to hear it was an up mix! Sounds better than the blu rays in most scenes.