The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 124

DominicCobb said:

In many ways Cassian works better. You basically get the gist of what he’s all about in his first few scenes. He’s a spy for the Rebel alliance, going on missions and finding info for the cause. He doesn’t care what he has to do in the name of fighting the Empire, even if that means killing people in cold blood.

Jyn on the other hand, it’s a bit more confusing. We know that she loses her parents to the Empire at an early age and that Forest Whitaker takes her in (though it’s unclear at the time who this person is). Then we see her 15 years later and she’s in Imperial prison. Why? It’s kind of explained a bit later in the Yavin briefing scene, but it’s still unclear what kind of life this person is living. We don’t really get the full picture until about 30 minutes into the film or so when she finally meets up with Saw, and we get it, she used to be a rebel for him, she was abandoned, and now she’s going it alone, avoiding the fight. But then she changes her mind in the next scene. There’s a compelling character there but it’s mishandled.

It all comes down to the structure of the film being off in the first act especially. Everything jumps around so much it’s nearly impossible to figure the status quo, so that once the plot kicks in and we get moving, it’s hard for us to be invested as we can’t completely connect to the protagonist. Cassian almost works as another protagonist but not totally, because the conflict isn’t there - it’s almost just another mission for him. If more was made of the fact that Jyn was going along being a bad idea than maybe, but otherwise he’s supporting a character we can’t yet relate to.

And if it’s not a film about the characters and it’s more generally about the Rebellion, they drop that ball a bit too. Again the status quo isn’t totally there. We could see the thumb the galaxy is under and the small victories the Rebellion is gaining… and then bam now there’s a Death Star to quell that and how will the Alliance face it? There’s a way to make the Alliance itself the protagonist but the first act’s so jumbled that doesn’t work either.

Thankfully things come into focus on Jedha and the second act is very solid I think. However, the third act, even with it’s near perfect action sequences, fumbles again. Cassian’s character is never challenged beyond trusting Jyn, which as mentioned before, is not a thread that is fully developed. They could have delved further into his morality but it basically boils down to “I’ve done some fucked up shit so yeah I’m still in all the way.” It’s frustrating because it’s all staggeringly close to the main theme they want the film to have: “hope.” Problem is, just because they say it all the time doesn’t make it so, it has to come about through the text of the film. They could have done this organically through Jyn - the pieces are there, she used to be in but she lost all hope. But again they bungle it by having her do a 180 within a single scene. And they could have done it with the Rebellion as the de facto protagonist, but again without the solid foundation of the status quo, and without the feeling of a looming Death Star threatening the existence of the Alliance throughout the film (and not just in one scene where they air their thoughts), the resolution of the third act just isn’t there.

That’s a great analysis. Just to make somethings clear, how would you rate the movie from 0 to 10?

BadCane said:

DominicCobb said:

In many ways Cassian works better. You basically get the gist of what he’s all about in his first few scenes. He’s a spy for the Rebel alliance, going on missions and finding info for the cause. He doesn’t care what he has to do in the name of fighting the Empire, even if that means killing people in cold blood.

Jyn on the other hand, it’s a bit more confusing. We know that she loses her parents to the Empire at an early age and that Forest Whitaker takes her in (though it’s unclear at the time who this person is). Then we see her 15 years later and she’s in Imperial prison. Why? It’s kind of explained a bit later in the Yavin briefing scene, but it’s still unclear what kind of life this person is living. We don’t really get the full picture until about 30 minutes into the film or so when she finally meets up with Saw, and we get it, she used to be a rebel for him, she was abandoned, and now she’s going it alone, avoiding the fight. But then she changes her mind in the next scene. There’s a compelling character there but it’s mishandled.

It all comes down to the structure of the film being off in the first act especially. Everything jumps around so much it’s nearly impossible to figure the status quo, so that once the plot kicks in and we get moving, it’s hard for us to be invested as we can’t completely connect to the protagonist. Cassian almost works as another protagonist but not totally, because the conflict isn’t there - it’s almost just another mission for him. If more was made of the fact that Jyn was going along being a bad idea than maybe, but otherwise he’s supporting a character we can’t yet relate to.

And if it’s not a film about the characters and it’s more generally about the Rebellion, they drop that ball a bit too. Again the status quo isn’t totally there. We could see the thumb the galaxy is under and the small victories the Rebellion is gaining… and then bam now there’s a Death Star to quell that and how will the Alliance face it? There’s a way to make the Alliance itself the protagonist but the first act’s so jumbled that doesn’t work either.

Thankfully things come into focus on Jedha and the second act is very solid I think. However, the third act, even with it’s near perfect action sequences, fumbles again. Cassian’s character is never challenged beyond trusting Jyn, which as mentioned before, is not a thread that is fully developed. They could have delved further into his morality but it basically boils down to “I’ve done some fucked up shit so yeah I’m still in all the way.” It’s frustrating because it’s all staggeringly close to the main theme they want the film to have: “hope.” Problem is, just because they say it all the time doesn’t make it so, it has to come about through the text of the film. They could have done this organically through Jyn - the pieces are there, she used to be in but she lost all hope. But again they bungle it by having her do a 180 within a single scene. And they could have done it with the Rebellion as the de facto protagonist, but again without the solid foundation of the status quo, and without the feeling of a looming Death Star threatening the existence of the Alliance throughout the film (and not just in one scene where they air their thoughts), the resolution of the third act just isn’t there.

That’s a great analysis. Just to make somethings clear, how would you rate the movie from 0 to 10?

Hmm, I don’t do the 0-10 thing much anymore but maybe an 8? I don’t want to give the impression I dislike the film. I actually really loved it and probably haven’t had this much fun at the movies since, well, The Force Awakens (and I go to the movies practically every week).

Part of what makes things about the film so frustrating is how close it came to greatness. All the pieces are there. Really, everything I wanted from the film is in there, it just isn’t handled in the right way. These are compelling characters and conflicts but far too often they’re lost in the shuffle and left with rushed resolutions, if any.

I still really enjoy the film and will watch more when it comes out on Blu-ray. But just because it’s fun. I don’t think it’ll reward repeat viewings as much as it could, and I think that’s because it’s just not quite as satisfying in many basic storytelling senses as it should be.

DominicCobb said:

BadCane said:

DominicCobb said:

In many ways Cassian works better. You basically get the gist of what he’s all about in his first few scenes. He’s a spy for the Rebel alliance, going on missions and finding info for the cause. He doesn’t care what he has to do in the name of fighting the Empire, even if that means killing people in cold blood.

Jyn on the other hand, it’s a bit more confusing. We know that she loses her parents to the Empire at an early age and that Forest Whitaker takes her in (though it’s unclear at the time who this person is). Then we see her 15 years later and she’s in Imperial prison. Why? It’s kind of explained a bit later in the Yavin briefing scene, but it’s still unclear what kind of life this person is living. We don’t really get the full picture until about 30 minutes into the film or so when she finally meets up with Saw, and we get it, she used to be a rebel for him, she was abandoned, and now she’s going it alone, avoiding the fight. But then she changes her mind in the next scene. There’s a compelling character there but it’s mishandled.

It all comes down to the structure of the film being off in the first act especially. Everything jumps around so much it’s nearly impossible to figure the status quo, so that once the plot kicks in and we get moving, it’s hard for us to be invested as we can’t completely connect to the protagonist. Cassian almost works as another protagonist but not totally, because the conflict isn’t there - it’s almost just another mission for him. If more was made of the fact that Jyn was going along being a bad idea than maybe, but otherwise he’s supporting a character we can’t yet relate to.

And if it’s not a film about the characters and it’s more generally about the Rebellion, they drop that ball a bit too. Again the status quo isn’t totally there. We could see the thumb the galaxy is under and the small victories the Rebellion is gaining… and then bam now there’s a Death Star to quell that and how will the Alliance face it? There’s a way to make the Alliance itself the protagonist but the first act’s so jumbled that doesn’t work either.

Thankfully things come into focus on Jedha and the second act is very solid I think. However, the third act, even with it’s near perfect action sequences, fumbles again. Cassian’s character is never challenged beyond trusting Jyn, which as mentioned before, is not a thread that is fully developed. They could have delved further into his morality but it basically boils down to “I’ve done some fucked up shit so yeah I’m still in all the way.” It’s frustrating because it’s all staggeringly close to the main theme they want the film to have: “hope.” Problem is, just because they say it all the time doesn’t make it so, it has to come about through the text of the film. They could have done this organically through Jyn - the pieces are there, she used to be in but she lost all hope. But again they bungle it by having her do a 180 within a single scene. And they could have done it with the Rebellion as the de facto protagonist, but again without the solid foundation of the status quo, and without the feeling of a looming Death Star threatening the existence of the Alliance throughout the film (and not just in one scene where they air their thoughts), the resolution of the third act just isn’t there.

That’s a great analysis. Just to make somethings clear, how would you rate the movie from 0 to 10?

Hmm, I don’t do the 0-10 thing much anymore but maybe an 8? I don’t want to give the impression I dislike the film. I actually really loved it and probably haven’t had this much fun at the movies since, well, The Force Awakens (and I go to the movies practically every week).

Part of what makes things about the film so frustrating is how close it came to greatness. All the pieces are there. Really, everything I wanted from the film is in there, it just isn’t handled in the right way. These are compelling characters and conflicts but far too often they’re lost in the shuffle and left with rushed resolutions, if any.

I still really enjoy the film and will watch more when it comes out on Blu-ray. But just because it’s fun. I don’t think it’ll reward repeat viewings as much as it could, and I think that’s because it’s just not quite as satisfying in many basic storytelling senses as it should be.

I completely agree with you. I’d give it an 7,5 to 8,5 floating score. I really liked the way you saw the first acts because thats’s exactly the way I felt ant put in a mini review I wrote in my Facebook page.

Best review I’ve read so far.

Don’t even know I’d call it a review. Just trying to work out loud why certain aspects of the movie don’t sit quite right with me.

That’s too bad. TFA only continues to improve for me.

Just goes to show what I said before about people looking for different things in SW. I liked RO, but second viewing didn’t do nearly as much for me, and I’m not aching to see it again. Whereas I can’t help but watch TFA through the end whenever it’s on TV.

I really don’t give a shit about Starkiller Base, it’s dumb but it’s also such a relatively small part of the movie. There are other little things that bother me but they don’t amount to much with the overall story as satisfying as it is.

Anchorhead said:

Ren isn’t interesting

This is a complaint I haven’t heard very often. May I ask why you feel this way? I find him wanting to fulfill the “wishes” of his Grandfather while being pulled by the Light and possibly lunacy to be extremely compelling. And aside from that like that Kylo is a bit of a smartass and his temper was both frightening and humorous.
There are a few more things I could mention but I think he has a lot going on as a character. Certainly more than Vader in STAR WARS, Maul in TPM and Palpatine in general.

DominicCobb said:

That’s too bad. TFA only continues to improve for me.

Just goes to show what I said before about people looking for different things in SW. I liked RO, but second viewing didn’t do nearly as much for me, and I’m not aching to see it again. Whereas I can’t help but watch TFA through the end whenever it’s on TV.

I really don’t give a shit about Starkiller Base, it’s dumb but it’s also such a relatively small part of the movie. There are other little things that bother me but they don’t amount to much with the overall story as satisfying as it is.

agree. a year later, i still find TFA superbly entertaining. abrams is great at creating and directing memorable characters. his weak point is often story logic, but i’m willing to overlook that in TFA.

ssj said:

DominicCobb said:

That’s too bad. TFA only continues to improve for me.

Just goes to show what I said before about people looking for different things in SW. I liked RO, but second viewing didn’t do nearly as much for me, and I’m not aching to see it again. Whereas I can’t help but watch TFA through the end whenever it’s on TV.

I really don’t give a shit about Starkiller Base, it’s dumb but it’s also such a relatively small part of the movie. There are other little things that bother me but they don’t amount to much with the overall story as satisfying as it is.

agree. a year later, i still find TFA superbly entertaining. abrams is great at creating and directing memorable characters. his weak point is often story logic, but i’m willing to overlook that in TFA.

It’s a weak point he covers up very well with pacing and charm.

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

I really don’t give a shit about Starkiller Base, it’s dumb but it’s also such a relatively small part of the movie. There are other little things that bother me but they don’t amount to much with the overall story as satisfying as it is.

I think it’s a problem that the largest superweapon in the Star Wars universe to date can be accurately described as ‘a relatively small part of the movie’.

No you’re right that’s exactly the reason why it’s a problem (the scene where they formulate the plan is absurd) but it also makes it really easy to roll with it (again that scene, you kinda just have to laugh).

I totally feel that. Starkiller is just really unfortunate. I think pretty much every other “rhyme” with ANH is totally justifiable but they never gave Starkiller a reason for being (plus it just doesn’t even make sense). They could have given it a reason for being or (better) done something different. But, as I’ve said, I do believe it is relatively easily overlooked. Not only is the plot not the only important aspect of the story of TFA, Starkiller isn’t even the main plot. Far more important in the 3rd act is saving Rey, bringing Ben home, and finding Luke. Minus the convenience (?) of R2 waking up, all that is very satisfying (and seeing Poe blow up the base is fun to watch too).

My hopes is that they don’t dumb him down because of the people who wanted him to be Vader 2.0

We know a lot about Kylo but there’s a lot of stuff we don’t know about him. I really want to know what he feels about Leia. He finds Han to be a disappointment but it’s possible that feeling could be even stronger about in regards to his Mom. I also want to know how he feels about Rey besting him twice and how he knows Snoke is using him.

Okay, could someone clue me in exactly what was the developed characterisation of the big three (four) in TFA?

Kylo Ren, I get. Decent dialogue, good visual characterisation, I enjoyed Adam Driver’s acting. He had an agenda and enough of a story on his own.

So, what about the rest?

Poe? He’s a … great pilot? Mind you, this was so bluntly expressed (“woohoo, what a great pilot!”) in a visually so over the top scene that didn’t have an ounce of suspense and doesn’t hold a candle to Han, Lando or even Wedge’s gripping space combat scenes, that I cringed. What else is about him? He’s… brave? And this was the character I wanted to like the most. I love flying and aviation, I love space sims. Pilots are the greatest. Oscar Isaac is an enigmatic actor. Yet, I couldn’t care a bit about Poe. He was just there. A pilot. Flat and blank.

Daisy Ridley’s Rey. Bless Daisy for giving the character soul and charm but besides the strong thirty initial minutes what is there so much of a character development for Rey? She learns about the Force and how to fight using a lightsaber. Adding that on top the fact she was a skilled hand-to-hand fighter, pilot, mechanic and adventurer, I doesn’t really add much. And about her character itself, nothing changed. At the end of the movie she’s determined, brave and purposeful. Just as she was at the beginning! What exactly was the growth arc here?

Finn, okay. Boayega brought a lot of energy and had charm but I think the dialogue was a bit forced, and I couldn’t really get the sudden jump from a “coward” to a “hero”. Really, people think Jun joining the Rebellion after the Empire kills both of her father figures in a couple of days rushed but Finn suddenly turning full circle on his view of running and hiding from the First Order because of a girl he met a couple of days ago normal? Right. Well, at least TFA setup the character enough for a lot of possible future development but it did not really advance him within the movie that much.

Kylo, sure. Finn… okay, I could agree with some reservations. But Rey and especially Poe being deep, developed characters? Eh, no.

Burdokva said:
Poe? He’s a … great pilot? Mind you, this was so bluntly expressed (“woohoo, what a great pilot!”) in a visually so over the top scene that didn’t have an ounce of suspense and doesn’t hold a candle to Han, Lando or even Wedge’s gripping space combat scenes, that I cringed. What else is about him? He’s… brave? And this was the character I wanted to like the most. I love flying and aviation, I love space sims. Pilots are the greatest. Oscar Isaac is an enigmatic actor. Yet, I couldn’t care a bit about Poe. He was just there. A pilot. Flat and blank.

Poe was underdeveloped. I have never been shy about saying that.

Daisy Ridley’s Rey. Bless Daisy for giving the character soul and charm but besides the strong thirty initial minutes what is there so much of a character development for Rey? She learns about the Force and how to fight using a lightsaber. Adding that on top the fact she was a skilled hand-to-hand fighter, pilot, mechanic and adventurer, I doesn’t really add much. And about her character itself, nothing changed. At the end of the movie she’s determined, brave and purposeful. Just as she was at the beginning! What exactly was the growth arc here?

Really? Rey is an orphaned child who at the age of 19 has tricked herself into believing that her parents are coming back thus creating this prison in her mind that she is unwilling to escape. She spends almost the entire film running away from her destiny until she can’t and finally succumbs and through her experiences chooses to travel to Luke even though she could have gone back to Jakku. Aside from that she found her stay on Jakku to be unbearable as she had to work her ass off to survive after she strode out on her own and when she wasn’t working she tried desperately to achieve some type of peace through sleep. Also even though there are a lot of scumbags in Nima Outpost she still hasn’t been corrupted by her environment as her front is easily breakable and the real Rey shows herself after minimal prodding. But one way that she has been corrupted is that she is definitely prone to anger. Her first instinct when being told Finn had stolen Poe’s jacket was to run after him and hit him with her staff. She also called upon the Dark Side of The Force when she defeated Kylo Ren as stated by the novelization and her face after when she was looking down upon him. She gets attached to people very quickly as she thinks Han could be the father she never had and you could count her considering Finn a friend despite seemingly having none in the beginning of the film, but Finn sacrificed so much for her that there’s nothing you could call Finn other than a friend. Speaking of Finn, seeing as how she believes his lies without doubt even though he’s a terrible liar and she still believes her parents are coming back she has shown herself to be quite naive. She’s has also shown traits of both humility and arrogance as she attributed Finn being saved from the Rathtar as just being luck.

I think that’s all I can think of

Finn, okay. Boayega brought a lot of energy and had charm but I think the dialogue was a bit forced, and I couldn’t really get the sudden jump from a “coward” to a “hero”. Really, people think Jun joining the Rebellion after the Empire kills both of her father figures in a couple of days rushed but Finn suddenly turning full circle on his view of running and hiding from the First Order because of a girl he met a couple of days ago normal? Right. Well, at least TFA setup the character enough for a lot of possible future development but it did not really advance him within the movie that much.

That’s not why Finn defected…Finn defected because The First Order slaughtered an entire village and he was about to be reprimanded for not killing the villagers. Did you watch the movie?

Poe was not a great character on paper (probably because it was decided to keep him alive at the last minute) but Oscar made him great by sheer talent. I assume he’ll be a more developed character in VIII.

I’m not really in the mood for a full breakdown but I’ll say a bit.

Poe is a secondary character in the film, and does not have much development beyond the sheer force of the personality Isaac gives him in his few scenes (which is more than enough to endear him to me). And there’s not much wrong with that little development because of the short screen time. Do I wish he was in it more? Hell yeah. But the character still works. Wedge? Are you kidding me? I didn’t even know who Wedge was until I discovered the internet.

There’s an argument to be made that Rey is possibly the most fully rounded character in SW in a single movie. The growth is exceedingly clear. She’s insecure of herself and wants to stay on Jakku, waiting. By the end she learns that her future lies ahead, not behind. She lets go of her past and accepts the path of the Force that she initially rejected.

Finn… what sudden jump? He’s fueled by fear throughout. What inspires him to finally “join” the Resistance is just to help Rey. He has certainly gained some sense of bravery when he stands up to Kylo Ren at the end, but he still has a ways to go before he’s a full fledged hero of the Resistance.

And anyway, you forgot one of the best arcs of the film: Han Solo.

I like to think I have a unique perspective on this movie as far as this forum goes because this was my first Star Wars movie. A friend of mine bought me a ticket to the midnight premier last year and even though I thought it was going to be really bad I said “what the hell” and saw it anyway. In the end though, I absolutely loved it. This movie got me watching the rest of the Star Wars movies in a way the prequels, which came out when I was very young with ROTS coming out when I was 9, could not. I saw scenes from those movies in passing whenever they were on TV and they made me think Star Wars was some terrible sci-fi series that I had absolutely no interest in.

Before the movie I knew a few things. I knew who Luke, Han and Leia were and I knew that Starkiller was a recycled Death Star. I also knew Darth Vader died in Episode VI and that he was burned. “The garbage will do” line completely missed me. I had no idea why everyone was laughing but it’s pretty great in retrospect.

The film is fast paced. The characters are really likeable and the acting is good. I made a Facebook post when I got home saying something like “The Force Awakens is really good for most of the movie but the last 30 minutes are fantastic” and I still definitely believe that. The special effects are truly top notch and I really just remember being like “I need to get into Star Wars now.”

So I’m actually glad they kinda just redid Episode IV for this movie because it was the perfect way for someone like me to get interested in Star Wars. In retrospect I wish they hadn’t made another Death Star but overall it was a damn good film. I think I like the original trilogy better now but it’s definitely up there as a great film for me. Long story short, I immediately wanted to see Episode VIII and I think in the end, as long as the rest of this trilogy is up to this quality or better, this will be my favorite Star Wars trilogy because it will be “my” Star Wars. This movie is essentially what Star Wars is to me and feels more like what Star Wars means to me than the originals even though I think I like those better.

Anyway, really wordy post, but yeah those are my thoughts.

thelionslicer said:

I like to think I have a unique perspective on this movie as far as this forum goes because this was my first Star Wars movie. A friend of mine bought me a ticket to the midnight premier last year and even though I thought it was going to be really bad I said “what the hell” and saw it anyway. In the end though, I absolutely loved it. This movie got me watching the rest of the Star Wars movies in a way the prequels, which came out when I was very young with ROTS coming out when I was 9, could not. I saw scenes from those movies in passing whenever they were on TV and they made me think Star Wars was some terrible sci-fi series that I had absolutely no interest in.

Before the movie I knew a few things. I knew who Luke, Han and Leia were and I knew that Starkiller was a recycled Death Star. I also knew Darth Vader died in Episode VI and that he was burned. “The garbage will do” line completely missed me. I had no idea why everyone was laughing but it’s pretty great in retrospect.

The film is fast paced. The characters are really likeable and the acting is good. I made a Facebook post when I got home saying something like “The Force Awakens is really good for most of the movie but the last 30 minutes are fantastic” and I still definitely believe that. The special effects are truly top notch and I really just remember being like “I need to get into Star Wars now.”

So I’m actually glad they kinda just redid Episode IV for this movie because it was the perfect way for someone like me to get interested in Star Wars. In retrospect I wish they hadn’t made another Death Star but overall it was a damn good film. I think I like the original trilogy better now but it’s definitely up there as a great film for me. Long story short, I immediately wanted to see Episode VIII and I think in the end, as long as the rest of this trilogy is up to this quality or better, this will be my favorite Star Wars trilogy because it will be “my” Star Wars. This movie is essentially what Star Wars is to me and feels more like what Star Wars means to me than the originals even though I think I like those better.

Anyway, really wordy post, but yeah those are my thoughts.

Nice post. I’ve always felt that TFA was designed very carefully to not only please young and old fans, but to welcome new fans as well. So, welcome!