Rogue One * Spoilers * Thread — Page 88

I don’t remember anything about him though…he may have been a coward but I may just be thinking of Finn.

I think you could spend ages picking the plot apart but it’s an enjoyable film.

I am just very curious about the whole plot set-up and how it was tinkered with. I don’t mind the tinkering result. But when you know something was changed or altered you can not help but feel, was how it was changed for the better or for the worst.

Some stuff could have been better perhaps in the first cut while other aspects no doubt were improved upon also.

My current thinking is the whole start was restructured and re-shot. Middle stayed pretty much in tact. The ending was condensed and perhaps tinkered with also slightly. That is my gut feeling on it.

ZkinandBonez said:

Why does so many people not like Bodhi? I though he was one of the more identifiable of the characters. He has much more character development than say, Chirrut (which has basically none), and even Baze.

Out of all the characters, I definitely think Bodhi was the most developed. He had the clearest character arc; an Imperial defector who finds new life in the Rebellion and eventually gives his life for the cause. Baze also had an arc, but it was more of a sudden turning point than an arc that was subtly built up over the course of the movie. I got the impression that they were supposed to be secondary characters, and that Jyn and Cassian were the real protagonists, but at the end of the day I liked Bodhi, Chirrut and Baze a lot more than either Jyn or Cassian.

ZkinandBonez said:

Well, the opening flash-back has a bald Whitaker, meaning that it most likely was from before the re-shoots (trailers had a bald Whitaker on Jedha as well). And from what Edwards has described it seems that it was Jedha, and mostly Scarif that was re-shot.

There is of course the whole thing about Edwards initially assuming that Disney wouldn’t let them kill off all the main characters, but I don’t know if that only affected the script or if they actually changed the shooting of the Scarif scenes that drastically.

Jeebus said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Why does so many people not like Bodhi? I though he was one of the more identifiable of the characters. He has much more character development than say, Chirrut (which has basically none), and even Baze.

Out of all the characters, I definitely think Bodhi was the most developed. He had the clearest character arc; an Imperial defector who finds new life in the Rebellion and eventually gives his life for the cause. Baze also had an arc, but it was more of a sudden turning point than an arc that was subtly built up over the course of the movie. I got the impression that they were supposed to be secondary characters, and that Jyn and Cassian were the real protagonists, but at the end of the day I liked Bodhi, Chirrut and Baze a lot more than either Jyn or Cassian.

Like I said I don’t remember any of that shit. Perhaps my 3rd viewing will give me clarity.

Hi again, first chance to chime in about Vader again despite the topic having kind of shifted from that. So if that’s an issue I apologize.

In regards to the Bespin duel in ESB, comparing that to Vader going apeshit isn’t really the same. There’s so much context to that duel, so much feeling, so much shifting motivations, how Vader just toys with Luke for awhile and then goes all out by the end that it’s not even a fair comparison. In the new one, he just goes apeshit to a level only seen in something like The Force Unleashed, not something I personally want to see films borrow from. There’s no context, no real meaning to it, and it’s the only time he pulls out a lightsaber for anyone not wielding the same, calling to question numerous times he could have done so in the original films. That’s something that would happen in Revenge of the Sith, a film I’d rather not have to be reminded of.

The end of ESB shows Vader does have limitations, Luke was still incredibly inexperienced, why couldn’t Vader just lift him up at any point like he does the Rebels? Why does Vader suddenly seem so much more limitless in what he’s capable of doing with the Force in Rogue One and come across as sort of a putz in the original by comparison? His line in ESB, “Bring my shuttle”, shows just how much rage he was just trying to keep in after having his plans foiled. That’s not the same kind of guy who would just go apeshit to no-name rebels.

In this way, the use of Tarkin was much more faithful to the character, he never does anything we wouldn’t expect him to. But Vader has changed from all the video games and the prequel films reframing his character since the OT that it somehow influenced how he is portrayed right before the events of the original film. It doesn’t mesh. Why would he be okay with sending in the troops onto the Tantive later on when he could just deal with them himself much more effectively? Why wouldn’t he use more effective means to torture the rebel commander on the ship, instead of accidentally kill him clumsily?

It pretty much ruins his original introduction if we’re to believe the Vader in Rogue One is the same Vader in Star Wars.

I know I probably won’t change any minds on this, I’m only speaking for myself. In regards to nobody asking for Yoda and everybody asking for this, I don’t think that’s possible to measure. I’ve heard plenty of the opposite of both from numerous others, that it’s just not a fair thing to assume. Let’s just speak for ourselves if we continue with that.

Anyway, thanks for reading if you made it this far. I don’t think I have much more to add.

Handman said:

Hi again, first chance to chime in about Vader again despite the topic having kind of shifted from that. So if that’s an issue I apologize.

In regards to the Bespin duel in ESB, comparing that to Vader going apeshit isn’t really the same. There’s so much context to that duel, so much feeling, so much shifting motivations, how Vader just toys with Luke for awhile and then goes all out by the end that it’s not even a fair comparison. In the new one, he just goes apeshit to a level only seen in something like The Force Unleashed, not something I personally want to see films borrow from. There’s no context, no real meaning to it, and it’s the only time he pulls out a lightsaber for anyone not wielding the same, calling to question numerous times he could have done so in the original films.

Forgive me, but I can’t honestly think of even one time.

The end of ESB shows Vader does have limitations, Luke was still incredibly inexperienced, why couldn’t Vader just lift him up at any point like he does the Rebels?

Well Vader was trying to seduce him/bring him with him. Luke was inexperienced but still had “impressive” knowledge of the Force. If you mean lift him up at the end when he drops away, I’ve always assumed Vader was just caught off guard. We know from ESB that Force users have the power to levitate so Rogue One shouldn’t be anything new in this regard.

Why would he be okay with sending in the troops onto the Tantive later on when he could just deal with them himself much more effectively?

In Rogue One, Vader was part of a boarding party (came onto the ship via shuttle). In SW, the ship that had the plans was captured by the Star Destroyer. They weren’t going anywhere this time. So Vader let his soldiers do the dirty work. Makes sense to me.

Why wouldn’t he use more effective means to torture the rebel commander on the ship, instead of accidentally kill him clumsily?

This seems like a question for SW that has nothing to do with Rogue One. We don’t have anymore reason to believe based on RO that he’d have some different and better method of torture (but we do have from SW - the mind probe).

Lord Haseo said:

Jeebus said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Why does so many people not like Bodhi? I though he was one of the more identifiable of the characters. He has much more character development than say, Chirrut (which has basically none), and even Baze.

Out of all the characters, I definitely think Bodhi was the most developed. He had the clearest character arc; an Imperial defector who finds new life in the Rebellion and eventually gives his life for the cause. Baze also had an arc, but it was more of a sudden turning point than an arc that was subtly built up over the course of the movie. I got the impression that they were supposed to be secondary characters, and that Jyn and Cassian were the real protagonists, but at the end of the day I liked Bodhi, Chirrut and Baze a lot more than either Jyn or Cassian.

Like I said I don’t remember any of that shit.

For what it’s worth I agree. There wasn’t a whole lot of Bodhi and any sort of arc he had just comes from our assumptions. I’d probably say he’s the most poorly handled character if it weren’t for Ahmed’s incredibly endearing performance.

ZkinandBonez said:

Also, “coward”? I don’t see how either Bodhi or Finn counts as cowards. Not particularly heroic from the start, sure, but that doesn’t make them cowards.

Bodhi no way, but Finn for sure. That’s his whole deal in the movie, he’s driven by fear.

DominicCobb said:

joefavs said:

EDIT: I misunderstood, I thought you were suggesting he should have built his digs on Tatooine. In the canon comics he actually does go back to Tatooine shortly after the events of ANH and slaughters another village of Tuskens just to kill time waiting for Boba Fett to meet him.

Wait… the fuck? Is this just like a hobby of his or something?

Having just read the first Vader comic, I don’t think this is as much a what the fuck moment as before. He was meeting Fett on Tatooine, so it’s not like he went out of his way to go there and kill some Tuskens. Still points deducted because Fett is again shown to be some kind of servant to Jabba and shouldn’t have necessarily been on Tatooine in the first place, and also because the way they reveal Vader’s just murdered some more sand people for old time’s sake is kind of silly. Still, I’ll let it slide.

All I can really say is it just doesn’t gel with his actions in the original for me, I tried articulating it but couldn’t really get the words right. You’re correct in not being able to think of a single time Vader using his lightsaber in other situations would have worked, but I would think that would help in saying it doesn’t really work well here. Would Vader go on the boarding party in the first place, is the real question? Every time he appears in action, like on Hoth or the Tantive, he’s there after most of the work has been dealt with. Yes, there’s the time element, but to me it’s not something Vader would really do. Nothing suggests to me he’d go apeshit either, Vader has always been a character on the verge of outward rage, but acts on it in a very collected manner.

I’m not really sure how to better explain it. I think my biggest issue with it is it looks like a video game and goes on far too long to make him look awesome when it’s not really earned in my view.

Handman said:

All I can really say is it just doesn’t gel with his actions in the original for me, I tried articulating it but couldn’t really get the words right. You’re correct in not being able to think of a single time Vader using his lightsaber in other situations would have worked, but I would think that would help in saying it doesn’t really work well here. Would Vader go on the boarding party in the first place, is the real question? Every time he appears in action, like on Hoth or the Tantive, he’s there after most of the work has been dealt with. Yes, there’s the time element, but to me it’s not something Vader would really do.

I disagree. I think with this much at risk, it totally makes sense for him to take things into his own hands. There’s never a time in the OT where this much is at stake. Regarding the Tantive; the Rebels were already caught, there was nowhere they could go.

Nothing suggests to me he’d go apeshit either, Vader has always been a character on the verge of outward rage, but acts on it in a very collected manner.

I don’t think Vader was as rage-filled as you make it seem like he was. He was quick, efficient and brutal sure, but he was never Kylo Ren level angry.

Fans too often attempt to make the individual films integrate perfectly with each other and identify what they consider bugs in the plot or with technicalities.

Sure…if Vader can just lift bodies in the air like in Rogue One, why didnt he simply lift Luke as he attempted to fall into Cloud City’s central chasm?

The answer is simple…because it would be silly from an artistic standpoint to see Luke take a dramatic stand; let himself fall and then suddenly is just caught and placed right back where he tried to fall from…or even worse maybe Vader could simply levitate him all the way back to his shuttle. But that too would ruin the drama.

Conversely in R1, Vader could simply not levitate the rebel in that corridor. But even more logically consistent would be if he was slow and plodding and actually got hit a few times given that he’s not quite what he once was. But that wouldnt quite make Vader as menacing as his reputation suggested he was.

Both solutions are far more logical and would allow the films to ‘sync up’ better. But would make each scene individually not as good.

Jeebus said:

Handman said:

All I can really say is it just doesn’t gel with his actions in the original for me, I tried articulating it but couldn’t really get the words right. You’re correct in not being able to think of a single time Vader using his lightsaber in other situations would have worked, but I would think that would help in saying it doesn’t really work well here. Would Vader go on the boarding party in the first place, is the real question? Every time he appears in action, like on Hoth or the Tantive, he’s there after most of the work has been dealt with. Yes, there’s the time element, but to me it’s not something Vader would really do.

I disagree. I think with this much at risk, it totally makes sense for him to take things into his own hands. There’s never a time in the OT where this much is at stake. Regarding the Tantive; the Rebels were already caught, there was nowhere they could go.

Perhaps, I maintain my final complaint that its execution in the film was lacking. I audibly sighed when I saw the lightsaber go on.

Nothing suggests to me he’d go apeshit either, Vader has always been a character on the verge of outward rage, but acts on it in a very collected manner.

I don’t think Vader was as rage-filled as you make it seem like he was. He was quick, efficient and brutal sure, but he was never Kylo Ren level angry.

Agree completely. He has a very good handle on his rage, and a good sense of humor in ESB’s case.

luckydube56 said:

Conversely in R1, Vader could simply not levitate the rebel in that corridor. But even more logically consistent would be if he was slow and plodding and actually got hit a few times given that he’s not quite what he once was. But that wouldn’t quite make Vader as menacing as his reputation suggested he was.

Both solutions are far more logical and would allow the films to ‘sync up’ better. But would make each scene individually not as good.

That’s pretty much what I was asking for, and since I didn’t really think the scene was that good to begin with, it doesn’t really bother me. I feel like it could be better executed to still make Vader menacing without looking like a video game and Vader-worship.

Handman said:

luckydube56 said:

Conversely in R1, Vader could simply not levitate the rebel in that corridor. But even more logically consistent would be if he was slow and plodding and actually got hit a few times given that he’s not quite what he once was. But that wouldn’t quite make Vader as menacing as his reputation suggested he was.

Both solutions are far more logical and would allow the films to ‘sync up’ better. But would make each scene individually not as good.

That’s pretty much what I was asking for, and since I didn’t really think the scene was that good to begin with, it doesn’t really bother me. I feel like it could be better executed to still make Vader menacing without looking like a video game and Vader-worship.

Ok well…to each his own. I will say that of all things, that scene was the most pleasurable bit of fan service in the entire film. The fans got to see the Vader they imagined after having seen Ep4. Now it doesnt quite jibe with what we come to learn in subsequent films but it was fun to watch. I enjoy being serviced. But only when it is done well. In 2 films now under Disney there have been many examples of blatant fan servicing but this one worked better than most all others. Just my opinion.

Tyrphanax said:

luckydube56 said:

Handman said:

luckydube56 said:

Conversely in R1, Vader could simply not levitate the rebel in that corridor. But even more logically consistent would be if he was slow and plodding and actually got hit a few times given that he’s not quite what he once was. But that wouldn’t quite make Vader as menacing as his reputation suggested he was.

Both solutions are far more logical and would allow the films to ‘sync up’ better. But would make each scene individually not as good.

That’s pretty much what I was asking for, and since I didn’t really think the scene was that good to begin with, it doesn’t really bother me. I feel like it could be better executed to still make Vader menacing without looking like a video game and Vader-worship.

I enjoy being serviced. But only when it is done well.

Oh my.

Awww shucks. You caught my strategically and intentionally placed corny double entendre.

luckydube56 said:

Handman said:

luckydube56 said:

Conversely in R1, Vader could simply not levitate the rebel in that corridor. But even more logically consistent would be if he was slow and plodding and actually got hit a few times given that he’s not quite what he once was. But that wouldn’t quite make Vader as menacing as his reputation suggested he was.

Both solutions are far more logical and would allow the films to ‘sync up’ better. But would make each scene individually not as good.

That’s pretty much what I was asking for, and since I didn’t really think the scene was that good to begin with, it doesn’t really bother me. I feel like it could be better executed to still make Vader menacing without looking like a video game and Vader-worship.

Ok well…to each his own. I will say that of all things, that scene was the most pleasurable bit of fan service in the entire film. The fans got to see the Vader they imagined after having seen Ep4. Now it doesnt quite jibe with what we come to learn in subsequent films but it was fun to watch. I enjoy being serviced. But only when it is done well. In 2 films now under Disney there have been many examples of blatant fan servicing but this one worked better than most all others. Just my opinion.

I respect your opinion, and I find it funny that every reason you stated for liking it is the exact reasons I didn’t like it. You actually said it better than me. So I appreciate that, you helped me actually figure out what it specifically was I didn’t like about it. I also apologize for the use of the phrase “Vader-worship”, I think I saw it tossed around earlier in the thread and decided to use it, but it probably came across as a bit stand-offish.