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Rogue One * Spoilers * Thread — Page 84

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Mithrandir said:

MalàStrana said:

Between Vader quietly walking in front of his men in TESB to get the Falcon and the one showing off his Force skills to kill a few random rebel extras, there is a gap. One is classy Darth Vader, while the other is Darth Jason Voorhees.

I agree. However, crashing a rebellion and capturing his son knowing he is alive and well can happen any day, while getting back the plans of the most important military development of your country when you know that there’s a mole in your ranks that probably has compromised the functionality of the weapon just needs some action to be taken.

I felt that Vader and Tarkin both acted recklessly just because the stakes were very very high, and that is something that explains and changes things in ANH in a better way. Exactly the same way you just do not think of Vader as such a random evil guy when you rewatch Empire knowing all he did was to find Luke.

People act as though just because Vader had disdain for the Death Star means he wouldn’t do anything necessary to get it back. Also it was literally in the hands of the Rebels. The time for some type of subtlety is over when you literally have no time left.

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MalàStrana said:

The ROTJ “storytelling scene” stays a very charming moment in the saga.

If by charming you really mean childish and stupid, then yes. It’s beyond cringeworthy.

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Anchorhead said:

MalàStrana said:
The ROTJ “storytelling scene” stays a very charming moment in the saga.

Sitting in the theater in 1983, that’s the very moment I knew the franchise (Lucas-penned) no longer spoke to me.
I couldn’t reconcile that bedtime story scene with the burned bodies in Star Wars.

Rogue One brings back that seriousness.

ANH and TESB aren’t that serious. They are pretty funny movies with a serious treatment. The difference is that the plot and the characters are taken seriously but their adventures and interaction can be fun. There is a balance to find, a balance that has been reached in the entire OT (ROTJ included), lost in the PT (except Jar Jar and Gunray all characters are too damned serious in TPM), failed in TFA (where there is too much slasptick humor and “soap comedy”), while in R1 it’s weird (serious tone but lack of development to justify the characters behaviors; a few jokes - thanks K2 - that sometimes work). Vader killing Captains and Admiral in cold blood is serious AND cool; Vader slaughtering random rebels in a dark corridor is serious AND boring AND totally pointless. And I don’t like the idea that in the official movie canon he does not draw his red saber for the first time on screen to duel Obi-Wan (and there is now an inconsistency between Vader dueling in ANH and Vader moving like a boogeyman in R1).

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Lord Haseo said:

MalàStrana said:

The ROTJ “storytelling scene” stays a very charming moment in the saga.

If by charming you really mean childish and stupid, then yes. It’s beyond cringeworthy.

Ok, you don’t like the scene, childish I can understand (SW is childish, even TESB and ROTS are), but expand on why this is stupid.

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 (Edited)

MalàStrana said:

Lord Haseo said:

MalàStrana said:

The ROTJ “storytelling scene” stays a very charming moment in the saga.

If by charming you really mean childish and stupid, then yes. It’s beyond cringeworthy.

Ok, you don’t like the scene, childish I can understand (SW is childish, even TESB and ROTS are), but expand on why this is stupid.

Besides the silly premise of C3P0 giving a campfire story to teddy bears it doesn’t push the plot forward in any way. Nor does it develop any of characters or gives us a sense of how they interact with each other. The only thing this scene does is trivialize the saga via childish framing (unlike good childish framing like in Stranger Things) and damage the film’s pacing.

EDIT:

SW and ESB have their goofier moments but nothing like teddy bear story time. The Jawas are the silliest things in those two films and they use technology unlike the Ewoks so it’s easier to swallow.

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Lord Haseo said:

MalàStrana said:

Lord Haseo said:

MalàStrana said:

The ROTJ “storytelling scene” stays a very charming moment in the saga.

If by charming you really mean childish and stupid, then yes. It’s beyond cringeworthy.

Ok, you don’t like the scene, childish I can understand (SW is childish, even TESB and ROTS are), but expand on why this is stupid.

it doesn’t push the plot forward in any way.

The ewoks deciding after the story to join the rebellion ?

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Telling them the story of SW and ESB progresses the plot in no way.

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Anyone else think Chirrut was portrayed as being a little to powerful in his use the force? I am assuming he used the force to sense his surroundings and fight. I really didn’t want there to be any new force users in this movie. I like the idea of him as a temple guardian who believes in the force for protection… but the way it was executed they basically made him almost a Jedi in all but name only…

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Forced based physical augmentation is child’s play.

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For a trained Jedi… sure. Look how Luke struggled with the remote with the blast shield down. Even with his inate force powers and first hand instruction from a Jedi it was a struggle to get a couple blocks in. Now compare that to seeing see Chirrut basically take out a squadron of stormtroopers on his own with nothing but a stick and then we also see him shoot down a TIE Fighter from the ground with one shot. Just seemed a little over the top to me.

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hydrospanner said:

For a trained Jedi… sure. Look how Luke struggled with the remote with the blast shield down.

Eh. After being hit with it like once he was able to hit 3 bolts in a row.

Even with his inate force powers and first hand instruction from a Jedi it was a struggle to get a couple blocks in. Now compare that to seeing see Chirrut basically take out a squadron of stormtroopers on his own with nothing but a stick and then we also see him shoot down a TIE Fighter from the ground with one shot. Just seemed a little over the top to me.

I really don’t know Chirrut’s background but if he self trained himself for a decade or so that level of Force based physical augmentation is within reason. Now if he were using Force Speed like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in TPM, doing giant force leaps like ROTS Anakin or literally ripping people to shreds like Darth Plagueis then I’d understand where you’re coming from.

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Lord Haseo said:
I really don’t know Chirrut’s background but if he self trained himself for a decade or so that level of Force based physical augmentation is within reason. Now if he were using Force Speed like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in TPM, doing giant force leaps like ROTS Anakin or literally ripping people to shreds like Darth Plagueis then I’d understand where you’re coming from.

Most of the above seemed too over the top for even the Jedi though IMO, at least in the excess it was done in during the PT.

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Lord Haseo said:

Telling them the story of SW and ESB progresses the plot in no way.

Are you so busy ranting that you’ve forgotten how to read? You just got your explanation. It absolutely does.

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MalàStrana said:

Lord Haseo said:

MalàStrana said:

Lord Haseo said:

MalàStrana said:

The ROTJ “storytelling scene” stays a very charming moment in the saga.

If by charming you really mean childish and stupid, then yes. It’s beyond cringeworthy.

Ok, you don’t like the scene, childish I can understand (SW is childish, even TESB and ROTS are), but expand on why this is stupid.

it doesn’t push the plot forward in any way.

The ewoks deciding after the story to join the rebellion ?

That was definitely the intention but it’s not entirely clear in the finished film.

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digitalfreaknyc said:

Lord Haseo said:

Telling them the story of SW and ESB progresses the plot in no way.

Are you so busy ranting that you’ve forgotten how to read? You just got your explanation. It absolutely does.

I have yet to be shown how story time progresses the plot or develops our characters.

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 (Edited)

hydrospanner said:

Anyone else think Chirrut was portrayed as being a little to powerful in his use the force? I am assuming he used the force to sense his surroundings and fight. I really didn’t want there to be any new force users in this movie. I like the idea of him as a temple guardian who believes in the force for protection… but the way it was executed they basically made him almost a Jedi in all but name only…

According to the RO Visual Guide the Guardians of the Whills has a form of martial arts called zama-shiwo meaning “the inward eye of the outward hand” which allows Chirrut to have complete control of his body and senses. He also has some kind of device powered by a tiny kyber crystal embedded in his staff which released a small harmonic sound which apparently helps him navigate his surroundings.

Source

So he’s basically just the SW equivalent of Zatoichi the blind swordsman.

He could of course have the slightest sliver of Force abilities though. The Force is after all supposed to be created by all living beings according to Yoda, so I don’t see why someone not specifically Force-sensitive can’t tap into some basic abilities. And back in the 80’s Lucas did consider the Force to be attainable to everyone, whereas some just had a much stronger natural connection to it (like the Skywalkers). Pablo Hidalgo has also stated that someone doesn’t have to be Force-sensitive to be affected by it, stating in a tweet “You can disbelieve in it, but still have it. I’m sure Ol Ben would attribute Han’s amazing piloting and “luck” to the Force. Han wouldn’t.” You could argue that this is more or less what Baze does at the end of the film as well.

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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 (Edited)

I think someone posed the same issue to Pablo and his response was something to the effect of “being wielded by the Force isn’t the same as wielding the Force,” which I took to mean that it’s more a matter of the Force acting through Chirrut than of Chirrut using it.

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joefavs said:

I think someone posed the same issue to Pablo and his response was something to the effect of “being wielded by the Force isn’t the same as wielding the Force,” which I took to mean that it’s more a matter of the Force acting through Chirrut than of Chirrut using it.

That’s how I took it.

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

END OF LINE

(It hasn’t happened yet)

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And if anyone finds fault with that remind them of the quote in STAR WARS where Obi-Wan says The Force controls your actions and obeys your commands.

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Anchorhead said:

Rogue One brings back that seriousness. The last thirty minutes or so with Jyn on the tower, while the battle for the shield rages on above, is pure Star Wars. It’s the gantry scene in Empire coupled with the space battle from Return. I felt like I was home again.

^ This.

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Something that is incredibly minor yet makes me very happy is that in RO they actually bothered with each X-Wing’s individial markings. I wasn’t sure if I was just seeing what I wanted in the cinema (although I am sure I saw Blue Leader, Blue 2, and Blue 4) but this leak confirms it - high-res screenshot of Scarif space battle: https://ewedit.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/an1-ff-000831.jpg

I wasn’t concerned about Chirrut’s skills at all. Why? There are instances of people who have lost their sight and compensated with other senses. I remember seeing a documentary about a boy (hopefully a young adult now) who lost his sight and his hearing developed like a sonar; he can build a “3d scene” just based on sound. I know a biker in the UK who can do that too.

Chirrut was a Guardian of the Whills’ temple, so he was trained to fight. He may have had a decade or more to adjust to his loss of sight, and he is Force-sensitive. If anything was a bit far-fetched it was his bowcaster being able to damage a TIE-Fighter so badly that it crashed. I think the movie heavily implied the Force protected him.

I, for one, actually enjoyed that return to form for the Force being something vague and mystical.

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Chirrut’s use of the Force was one of my favorite aspects. More characters like this and Maz please (and Leia I guess), who can feel the Force but aren’t Jedi.