thorr

Thanks Harmy, you saved me the work of getting it exact.  Glad I was pretty close just by theorizing.  :-)

Puggo, I totally agree that you should keep the curved edge.  Just crop it so the widest part of the picture goes all the way to the edge.

This got me to thinking that maybe the curved edges are inherent in the video capture rather than on the print (barrel distortion).  If so, this can probably be corrected also so the edges are straight without losing any pixels.  This may be possible with Vegas.  Of course now I am getting really picky. :-)  If you can upload a sample raw clip, I could work on it and see what I can do.

Hi Puggo,

Great and exciting work on the video quality!  We still have some work to do on the cropping and aspect ratio.  I am not at home so I can't check to see if the aspect ratio is correct, but I am guessing not.  I was surprised that your screenshots had a width of 654, because I was expecting it to be 720.  I am glad that the video is 720 wide because that means there is more resolution in there.  I am guessing that doubling 720 to 1440 is not the correct aspect ratio because 720 width is with non-square pixels. (720 / 480 does not equal 4 / 3 which is what the captured aspect ratio should be). 

Also, I highly recommend and request that you crop the video to the edges of the frames rather than having black area on the sides and top/bottom.  These edges will otherwise show up on the screen and not fill the screen all the way to the edges making the picture smaller.  When I crop your video, I am getting 1380x466.  If you take 466 * 4/3 * 2, you get a width of 1242.6.  If I resize the 1380x466 area to 1243x466, the aspect ratio looks more correct to me by eyeballing it.  Then this should be upscaled to 1280x480 and then black bars added to the top and bottom to make it 1280x720.

To make a long story short, I suggest to crop right to the edge of the image area, then resize to 1280x480, then add black bars to the top and bottom to make it 1280x720.  If you can upload a sample 5 second raw avi with preferably a bright scene where it is easy to see the edges, I can work on it and tell you the settings to use to do what I described above and upload the result for you to see.

Thanks!

Mike

Yes, you can burn it onto a DVD disc and the blu-ray player reads it just like it would a blu-ray disc, except it doesn't hold as much data.

That would be fine as long as it wasn't released in .iso format.  You can find the large .m2ts file within the directories and play that with VLC or convert it to .mkv or whatever you want.  If it is released in .iso format, then you have to either burn the disc or use special utilities to get to the .m2ts file from within the .iso file.  The black bars don't hurt anything with any playback device, and they help with blu-ray compatibility.

d020 said:

Why would you like to add black bars? As said before, it´s not necessary in MKV. The test video looked great on my PC aside from the pulldown. In my opinion it only would blow up the file size and make it more complicated to edit the video or using anamorphic lenses on beamers etc.

But if there´s a good reason to do so maybe you could do a version without.

 

The reason is so you can play it on a blu-ray player and remove the requirement to use a PC or other device.  Adding black bars is negligable in terms of file size (it's all black and never changes), and also, it does not make it more complicated with anamorphic lenses at all.  It will be the same as playing any blu-ray.  On the other hand, if it was encoded without the black bars, it would need to be re- encoded to be blu-ray compatible (extra work for Puggo, or video loss for us if he doesn't do it to begin with and leaves it up to us to re-encode).  I am not 100% sure if what I am saying is true about the 720 requirement  because I haven't tried to create a blu-ray (actually I mean an AVCHD DVD) from Puggo's file yet to test it.  Maybe it is not needed.

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

I've got the width stretching properly to 1280, but I'm not sure how to encode the height to 720 so that it adds black bars.  Right now I'm encoding the height to 480 (i.e., leaving it as-is), and luckily VLC and GOM are adding the black bars on playback.  But I'm not sure how to add them in the context of using xvid4psp for resizing.  Should I resize the height to 720 in Vegas first, and then stretch the width in xvid4psp?

By the way, everyone, try out GOM player.  On my 58" screen, with this clip, it does a better job than both VLC and WMP.

You can add the black bars in xvid4psp to get it to 1280x720.  I don't remember how to do it off the top of my head, and I can't get to my computer right now to try it out because my dad is sleeping in there.  If you can't figure it out, I will eventually get to my computer and try to help.  :-)

dark_jedi said:

thorr said:

For the audio settings, I would suggest using 640Kbps stereo AC3

Got damn, that is way overkill and a half for stereo audio LOL, no need for that at all, save for video.

Oops, you are totally right of course.  That's what I get for posting late at night.  I was thinking of 6 channel audio bit rates even though I said stereo.  192Kbps is more than enough for mono.

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Can I merge a separate audio file in xvid4psp?

Also, what audio settings should I use?  I just used default settings for everything... any suggestions you have for tweaking it would be appreciated.

Yes, you can, or you can deal with the audio and video separately and merge them later.  Xvid4PSP will deal with them both either together or separately.  I would suggest doing them separately and when you are finished, create the final product using tsmuxer.  That will allow you to adjust the delay between the audio and video assuming it is synchronized from start to finish.

For the audio settings, I would suggest using 640Kbps stereo AC3 unless it doesn't sound very good to begin with and maybe you could use a slightly lower bit rate and leave more room for video.  You need to see how big the audio file is, and make sure that the video plus the audio aren't too big for a DVD9 after converting to bluray format.  I would give a little breathing room when encoding the video and keep the total of the audio and video file sizes just under 8GB.

I haven't had a chance to check out your clip yet because my family is in town, but I can't wait to see it.  I will let you know if I have any other suggestions.  I am curious if I can take your clip and use TSMuxer to create a valid bluray disc because it  is using a non standard resolution. You definitely want to encode it to 23.976 frame rate dropping extra frames from your 30 fps capture.  You may also want to encode it to 1280x720.  This will ensure compatibility with bluray players.

Mike

Also, you can change the frame rate using xvid4psp.  There are several options, but I think the "Assume" is the correct one as mentioned (not 100% sure).

althor1138, that is so cool.  How easy would it be to use more than two captures?  Puggo said he has 3 or four per reel.  Do they need to line up the same way throughout, or does it detect the best fit frame by frame and adjust itself accordingly?

Great!  Are you cropping as you go, or storing the original frames?  Just curious because I am wondering how stable the cropping edges are.

Total bummer.  Are you saying that the film strip is warped/twisted when you hold it up in the air?  If you laid it down flat with tension on it, would it look correct then?  I am just trying to understand the exact problem.

Thanks,
Mike

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Ok, that's a great method.  So the horizontal stretching factor appears to be about 1.98.  That matches the basic definition of 16mm scope being 2x.

Actually it is more like 2.68:1.  I was going to say that the reason for the cropping the way it was was due to the way the anamorphic lenses were defined for 16mm, and that may still be true.  If the lenses are about 2.68:1, then they would need to crop the top and bottom to match the lens while maintaining the correct aspect ratio, or add black bars to the frame. 

Hey, my theory is correct and so is yours.  I found this: http://www.film-center.com/scope1.html

So the original frame is 1.33:1 and then it is 2x'd to 2.66:1 which is what we are seeing.

Video Collector said:

Thorr, I admire the effort you put into this.

The 16mm was cropped more than I thought :-(

Thanks.  It would be nice to have the whole frame, but I am sure most people won't even notice the missing parts on the edges.  Think of it as overscan.  ;-)  When it is in motion it won't be as obvious unless it chops off subtitles or something like that.  It is not obvious anyway until you overlay it onto the original like I did.  Also, more resolution is available for the part of the frame that is there, so you get more detail than you would if you had the whole frame to scan, so at least there is a silver lining.

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

It was more important to me to make the edges straight, so that when it comes time to crop, there won't be much image loss.  By the way, it is not at all easy to get the frame straight with the workprinter.

I totally agree.   I can only imagine how difficult it is to get everything lined up.  The image alignment is very close to perfect and the edges are perfect, so I wouldn't change it. 

Can't wait to see it in motion! :-)

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

thorr said:

Hi Puggo,

- I gave it a shot and I took the frame of the two walkers and cropped it to 624x462 to get rid of the borders.

- Then I stretched it to 1236x462 and it looks pretty close to correct.  Your scan is very slightly crooked so it doesn't match perfectly, but I can't get it any closer.

So at 462, the height of the material actually matches exactly?  I was assuming that the whole thing would need to grow or shrink somewhat to make it match.

Thanks a lot for your analysis!  This sort of thing helps me out a lot.  I'll post a short clip and if you (or anyone else) wants to try running a BD test using your formula above, that would give us an idea of how well this might work.

Yes, I was keeping the height constant on the PSB and only stretching the horizontal until the width and height matched the original aspect ratio.  I also had to grow and shrink the original frame by dragging the corner so both dimensions would grow and shrink and keep the original aspect ratio.  Eventually I got the original frame to the right height and then stretched the PSB until the width matched.  It was kind of a pain.  :-)  Then when I overlaid the two, I pasted the new onto the old and then did undo, redo, undo, redo so I could flip back and forth to make sure it matched and that is when I noticed the PSB frame was very slightly crooked.  The edges are straight so it is the frame inside that is crooked (definitely not a big deal).

I would be happy to post a BD test if someone else doesn't beat me to it.  Then I can tell you exactly what I did so you will know how to do it and anyone else can critique the method I used.

Thanks,
Mike

Hi Puggo,

- I gave it a shot and I took the frame of the two walkers and cropped it to 624x462 to get rid of the borders.

- Then I stretched it to 1236x462 and it looks pretty close to correct.  Your scan is very slightly crooked so it doesn't match perfectly, but I can't get it any closer.

- Then I scaled the width to 1280 maintaining the current aspect ratio which brought the final picture area to 1280x478

So to make a long story short, if you crop the original to 624x462 to get rid of the edges, then scale it to 1280x478, then change the canvas size adding the black bars to 1280x720, you should be all set.

Here is the picture with the 1236x462 overlaid onto the original:

http://i52.tinypic.com/2mrfmz7.jpg

-Mike

I remember this project too.  I am glad that it seems to be going somewhere.  Wish I could also see the progress... :)

Sorry about that.  I just compared it to the original and the PG does look pretty close to correct.  They chopped quite a bit off the bottom and a little off the top.  The good news is this means there is even more resolution there natively as long as you continue to do the horizontal stretch and never shrink the resolution vertically to fix the aspect ratio.  I tried stretching the raw uncropped frame to 1280x480 and it looks pretty close to correct.  It would need to be cropped from there then upscaled back to 1280.  It would be cool if you could get the camera in the exact spot so the raw capture was right on the edge of the frame so no cropping would be needed on the sides, but it sounds like it loses focus and causes the other problems you mentioned.  Maybe you could keep it placed in the same position as before, but zoom it in a bit.

Here is a comparison between the current PG and the upscaled version.  I only did the horizontal stretch and left the vertical resolution as is (horizontally scaled to 1128x480 then cropped to the borders).  As you can see there is significant resolution to be gained.  The current PG is a bit squished vertically from where it should be, so there is another reason to redo it.  ;-)

http://i56.tinypic.com/jjlgzk.jpg

By the way, I am also very excited about the prospect of the upscaled HD version of the PG.  Here is a sample pic to wet everyone's appetite.

http://i51.tinypic.com/116kw2h.jpg

:-)  :-)  :-)

Mike

Thanks for all of the updates and info.  It's great to learn about this stuff.  Keep up the great work!!!  Yeah corners!!! ;-)

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

See, that's the problem. A telecine capture doesn't ever preserve exactly how one would see the film if projected, because of a myriad of factors. The range of colors you get on the video depends on how the film is illuminated (what type of light), how the lens settings respond to the lighting used, the white balance setting on the camera, etc. Cameras don't work the same as our eyes do. And if you find a setting that works on one scene, it generally doesn't work as well for other scenes... sometimes it's way off.  So, if you want it to look as close as possible to an actual viewing of the film, you HAVE to tweak it scene by scene in post.

Can you pause the capture and adjust the camera scene by scene?  Another idea would be to do multiple captures with different settings and take the best version of each scene before adjusting in post.  If any scenes are really bad to start with, do another capture.  I am not sure how hard this is to do, so I may be asking too much.  :)

Anyway, I agree with Dark Jedi and am only throwing ideas out there that may or may not help.  I am very excited about this project!

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

thorr said:

Regarding the border, if you would, please just crop it to the top/bottom and sides of the frame leaving the curved edge on the corners alone.

I'll consider that.  It depends how "noisy" it is in those corners.  Sometimes they can be distracting if there's a lot of junk in them, or if the soft borders clash too noticeably with the sharp borders of the rest of the image.

Here is what it would look like with one of the sample frames at 1280x720p:

http://i54.tinypic.com/vwpy74.jpg

In my opinion it looks good enough already, but if you wanted to you could try adjusting the color of the black bars to roughly match the color of the corners and it wouldn't be as noticeable.  In my case I have a projector and have black masking for my screen so the white part of the screen is effectively 2.35:1.  I wouldn't notice the difference with the black bars and corners at all.

Here is a sample with the black bars matching the color of the right side corners:

http://i53.tinypic.com/2wq494h.jpg

The left side is more noticeable to me because they don't match the bars.  Maybe just making the black bars black would be the best route and the corners would just be part of the horizontal picture.

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

This sounds like a good way to go.  So now I have some questions...

In the past, I would use the anamorphic flag to have the player stretch the video horizontally.  So, not having worked with HD video before, is it the case that HD video doesn't use such a flag?

And if that's the case, then the entire horizontal stretch is done in software?  Any suggested tools that would do the best job at that?

Correct, there is no anamorphic flag with HD video.  You will need to do the horizontal stretch in software. 

I will let others chime in for what software might be best, but I like xvid4psp.  It will let you do any size you want.  It defaults to Lanczos resizing which people seem to like.  It will also crop for you (assuming the crop position is always the same) and I think it will let you add the black bars on top and bottom too if you want to do 1280x720p so that it is blu-ray compliant.  You should do your color corrections first before using xvid4psp (and your cropping if it moves around).  When you convert the file, try to keep the bit rate so that the final size is about 8GB.  Once the xvid file is made, you can use TSMuxer to convert it to blu-ray format.  When converting the file to blu-ray, it grows a bit so you don't want to make the original xvid file too big or it won't fit on a DVD-DL disc.

What software you can use depends on how you are doing your capture too.  What format are you saving the original images to?  A bunch of pictures, a lossless AVI, ...?  Avisynth is another way to go, but is not as easy to use.  I think xvid4psp uses Avisynth anyway.

Anyway, thanks!  I can't wait to see the final product!

Mike

Edit: Molly's post may be another possibility, but I am not sure if you can set an aspect ratio of 2.35:1 on whatever resolution and have it automatically stretch it out.  This would be even easier.  All you would need to do is crop it to the sides and top, set the aspect ratio, convert it to AVC-HD/H264/Xvid or whatever you want to call it and save to mkv, and that's it. 

This wouldn't be blu-ray compliant though so if people wanted to burn it to DVD-R and watch it on their blu-ray player, it wouldn't work.  The way I mentioned above might be better in this case (1280x720p).  If you need help with the settings in the Xvid4PSP software, I can try to help you, but I would need to know what format you are working with and maybe you could send me a very small sample of your original file(s), just so I could get the settings right.