nhoj3

.Mac. said:

So, hypothetically speaking, if adywan were to move the Luke/Yoda scene to the beginning of the movie (and consequently the Obi-Wan scene also, since those two scenes are a linked package), aren’t you guys concerned about the pacing of the 1st act? It would really drag on then. That’s why these kinds of slower, talking scenes are intended for the 2nd act, not the 1st.

Also, where would Luke go after they all leave Tatooine? If he follows Han and co. to the Rebel fleet, can adywan convincingly edit it so he is actually with them during the briefing (and no longer shows up after the briefing is over)? I can’t see it. Or, if he still shows up at the end of it, where was he before that he couldn’t make it on time for the important briefing?

Again, I do think it would’ve made sense that he’d go back to Yoda for more training immediately after ESB, but given the footage there is to work with, I feel it cannot be done in a seamless way; not without re-shoots, which is of course out of the question.

I’m open-minded to any change in ROTJ if it makes sense, improves it, and can be accomplished (as I hope others are too), and so if this is somehow possible, I haven’t read/seen anything that sways me; I only see that it would unnecessarily cause more technical issues.

nhoj3 said:

Luke returning to Yoda to continue his training and admitting that he was wrong to run off half-cocked shows maturity and character growth. That makes “sense” from a storytelling perspective.

I like that and completely agree. And that’s what Luke tries to do, too, after he finishes rescuing Han.

My previous post proposing a revised crawl abandoned the idea of front loading the Dagobah scenes. Check it out and let me know what you think!

jarbear said:

YodaFan67 said:

I like it. In fact, I may have to concede it makes more sense than my “restructuring” idea.
About “the question”, I think the script hints that Yoda has been dodging the question, which to me can be used as evidence that Luke had tried to get an answer out of him before.

Yoda: One thing remains… Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.
Luke: Master Yoda…is Darth Vader my father?
Yoda: Rest I need. Yes. Rest.
Luke: Yoda, I must know.
Yoda: (reluctantly) Your father he is.

It does lend to itself that Yoda has been dodging the question over some time … not until he was about to die he finally would admit it.

Luke: Yoda, is Darth Vader my father?!
Yoda: After more training, tell you I will
…
Luke: Ok, is he my father?!
Yoda: A nap, I take first.
…
Luke: Now will you tell me?
Yoda: Into the cave you must go, answers you will find.

… and so on.

It’s also supported in the deleted scene where Yoda tells Luke that he’s deliberately been hiding the secret from him as long as possible. To me it makes perfect sense that it would be limited to a deathbed confession.

Jani-wan said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Jani-wan said:

doubleofive said:

If Luke already waited 6-12 months to go back to Yoda, what difference would it make if he went back one week or the next? And doesn’t it make just as much sense for him to have resolved the mission he set himself on before returning to Yoda? “I totally failed to save my friends, and still haven’t saved them, so I’m sure you’re really disappointed in me. Oh, you’re dead.”

I have no idea where this 6-12 months came from.
I think I read 6 month in the book, but Im not sure. It was like 30 years ago.
But it just does not make any sense.

I think current canon says 6 months between ESB and ROTJ.

Then it must be changed.
It was 2 weeks.
Easy.
BTW I do not accept canon, if it makes no sense. It’s like accepting the geocentric model, when we know it is wrong. Disney must do a better job.

Let me start by saying that clearly no single approach is going to satisfy everyone.

Having said that, I feel that you’re being overly confident in an argument that doesn’t stand up to its own measures. You talk of “sense” but how does it make any “sense” if only 2 weeks have passed in the story when the actors (particularly Mark Hamill) have clearly aged years? In this regard a longer passage of time makes more “sense”.

Maybe some people would believe that it makes more sense that:

• It might take some time to find a single object in a rather large galaxy.
• That perhaps Jabba may have more than a single stronghold to infiltrate
• That it takes time to build a credible backstory to infiltrate an organization as Lando has
• That this whole cycle may have to be repeated if Han isn’t found in that location

As a kid that actually had to wait 3 years between ESB and ROTJ I had no issues following the continuing adventures of Marvel Star Wars (minus Han Solo) while Luke and company searched the galaxy foe their frozen friend.

You’ve asked several times “how long would you leave your friend on a wall?” I don’t think it’s a relevant question. “Scoundrel” Lando is infiltrating in a way that Luke cannot. Everyone is playing their role on the team.

Luke returning to Yoda to continue his training and admitting that he was wrong to run off half-cocked shows maturity and character growth. That makes “sense” from a storytelling perspective.

ChainsawAsh said:

That’s part of why I think the Vader “calling to Luke” thing from the lightsaber building scene is necessary for this to work.

While Ady has said that no deleted scenes will be included because of poor quality, I feel that this scene has the greatest potential for reshooting with body doubles and some conscious changes (i.e. not showing Luke’s face). I don’t know if that holds any appeal for him, but I think that’s it’s at least possible, and I really like how it connects two disparate parts of the film. It also plays really nicely with the revised crawl that I just proposed in that Vader is desperate to find Luke.

ray_afraid said:

doubleofive said:

doesn’t it make just as much sense for him to have resolved the mission he set himself on before returning to Yoda?

But, again, Lando and Chewie are the ones who took off on the mission to find Han. Luke opted out saying "call me when you find him."
It just makes sense that in the meantime he would return to Yoda. Charging off again after failing last time makes it seem like he didn’t learn anything from his previous failures.

Completely agree.

All of this “crawl” talk today is ironic because I’ve been drafting a post on it for a few days now. I’ve cut out some of the lead in that talked about ROTJ’s weak points and focus on the bit about improving the crawl to make what follows make more sense.

I too was hoping that restructuring the scenes might improve things but after watching the ROTJ Spence Final Cut I’m not so sure that it can be done and still feel “natural”. Smoothing out these types of changes are what pickup shots are for, and that’s not really feasible for anything involving the principal actors.

Instead of bending over backwards to put Luke on Dagobah first, what if it was done through a revised crawl?

Proposed Revisited ROTJ Opening Crawl (85 words, 7 more than original):

While his friends have scoured the galaxy for Han Solo, Luke Skywalker has evaded Darth Vader’s relentless pursuit by continuing his Jedi training on the secret planet of Dagobah.

With Han finally discovered in the lair of the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt, Luke has left his training once again to join his friends in a daring rescue attempt.

Little do they know that the GALACTIC EMPIRE has secretly been constructing a new armored space station even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star…

Which leads into the opening of the movie as we know it. It’s not perfect but it does address a few issues:

1. Luke’s training DID continue after ESB and his powers have justifiably improved
2. It better explains why the rescue team didn’t go in as a single team
3. It ties in nicely with ESB and ROTJ dialogue of Vader’s search for Luke
4. Replacing the word “begun” with “been” suggests that DS2 construction has been going on for longer, better justifying it’s advanced progress.
5. It allows for Luke to separate and rejoin the fleet as depicted in the original cut

Granted it begs a few questions. Why did Luke wait to ask “the big question”. Still I think it would work, as Mark Hamill’s delivery of “IS Darth Vader my father?” sounds like a question that has been asked many times before. Some of Yoda’s response may have to be trimmed to make it work, but I really think that it’s worth considering.

trimboNZ said:

ENDOR

Keep the Ewok traps for the AT-ST’s, but have them trigger before Chewie hijacks one. Currently it looks like the Ewoks could be trapping Chewie.

Great list! I agree with almost everything on there except this. I just don’t think that the Ewoks could put together the log traps so quickly and quietly so as not to attract Imperial attention (chopping wood, trees falling, massive logs being hoisted into place, etc.). However, I think that the rope traps are more than acceptable.

Oh, I also disagree that “one burp joke per movie is enough”… I think that number should be zero for Star Wars movies. Along with fart jokes or stepping in excrement.

I’m looking at you Jar Jar.

doubleofive said:

ray_afraid said:

Editroid said:

No one answered me what they thought of the Blu-Ray effects of Han unfreezing.

ChainsawAsh said:

I think they look like shit.

Feel better?

Editroid said:

No.

ALLOL
What’s the new effect look like? I didn’t know they changed it.

https://youtu.be/wtADzMEeiE0

Well, I have to admit that it’s a step up over the original. Still room for improvement though.

Not sure if that makes Editroid feel any better.

Jani-wan said:

What is wrong with the current uncompleted Death Star?

My two complaints are:

1. Visually, the DS2 was a rerun of a better film so I was hoping that an alternative design might help to separate it more, and
2. Even ignoring the PT, many people have complained that DS2 was nearing completion in too short a time, so I thought that a less completed version might mitigate that complaint.

A bonus would be that a less completed version would look like a more inviting target to the rebels.

Again, just an idea.

Tobar said:

Helicopter? We live in the age of the drone.

I hadn’t even considered the use of drones for this project but it’s an incredible idea and opportunity. For example if Ady and crew were interested, I bet that they could get much smoother tracking shots of the Redwood forest and redo the speeder bike scenes with exceptionally clean effects.

First time trying to post an image, so please forgive me if it takes a few attempts. I found this concept art for DS1 (Episode III) that I found interesting. I thought that visually it was different enough to separate itself from DS1 (as seen in Episode IV) while still eventually being in the same class of super weapon. Being in an early stage it also helps quell the argument that the Empire couldn’t have built it in the allotted time.

I’m not sure if there’s appetite to replace the iconic DS2 silhouette, but thought that it was at least worth considering.

doubleofive said:

I don’t have a YouTube backup if they got taken down. There’s plenty of edits that mess with the structure, but I’m not sure which ones.

If anyone could recommend a fan edit that is a good example of this, I would appreciate it. I have the DarthRush fan edit which tightens everything up but still keeps the overall structure the same.

The DarthRush edit has a lot going for it. I particularly like the removal of Threepi’s videos “Captain Obvious” moments, as well as the removal of Oola falling into the Rancor pit which makes Luke’s fall more of a surprise.

doubleofive said:

Ady’s always had his eye on our Wishlist.

The Archive seems to have a lot of the lost mockups, I might pull them down and restore the WordPress.

I for one would be really interested in them if you have any of the animatics mentioned. I’m particularly interested in anything related to the re-ordering of scenes. Updating effects and fixing errors is great for us hardcore fans, but attempting to construct a stronger story structure has a chance to really strengthen the film. Having said that I realize that this is easier said than done.

snooker said:

Here’s doubleofive’s old list of wanted ROTJ changes if anyone wants to take a look.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140927233237/http://doubleofive.wordpress.com:80/rotj-fanedit-wishlist/

Wow… that is an exhaustive list! There are some really great ideas in there! I’m especially impressed with all of the continuity and effects suggestions. Some suggestions seem a bit on the impossible side, but the majority of the list is actionable. I thought that some (like having burning DS2 debris replace the fireworks) were downright inspired.

I don’t know the exact relationship between Ady and 005, but I’m assuming that Ady’s aware of all these requests and the don’t need repeating?

doubleofive said:

OK, just rewatched it, they’re definitely on the damaged one the whole time. I guess it compensated for the damage and rebalanced. Additional bobbing will help, especially in the shot where they’re helping Han back in.

Adding smoke and battle damage would also help to sell that idea.

Noticed fairly large continuity error for the first time. At the Sarlacc pit, the skiff that Lando, Han, Chewie, etc. were on was heavily damaged and listing after being hit by several blasts. Just a few short moments later, Luke and Leia swing down to an undamaged and perfectly level skiff.

trimboNZ said:

nhoj3 said:

Is anyone else bothered by the carbonite thawing? I’m not just talking about the effects, but also the body mold imprint that Harrison Ford fell out of. I always felt that it wasn’t very form fitting and that the “hole” was too large for Harrison. When all parts are taken as a whole, I don’t feel that the scene has aged particularly well.

That scene bothers me more because Boushh (Leia) lets Han fall out of the encasement straight onto the hard floor. I guess one could rationalize it by saying he needed a solid jolt to start his heart again, but it still seems rather… brutal.

I just watched this scene again. Since you’re dealing with Boushh’s robotic voice (and no moving lips) it wouldn’t be hard to redub the lines, adding something to explain her actions. Something like:

“Just relax for a moment. You are free of the carbonite. The fall has shocked your system awake. You have hibernation sickness.”

DigMod said:

Hmm I’m reading all this and all I can hear is Porkins saying, “stay on (topic), stay on (topic)” :p

+1 for this, even if it wasn’t Porkins.

I’ve donated some already, though sadly the Canadian dollar doesn’t convert well to the British pound.

Boba Fett’s lines in ROTJ are precisely:

“Ugh. What the? Argh. Ugh. Argh.”

I may be mistaken, but perhaps all “Boba Fett accent” debates should be moved to the Episode V thread. Or (since Ady’s already made his editorial decision) to another fan edit thread entirely.

I went through watching ROTJ and made some notes of things that I feel might be candidates for changes. I’d be curious to know what others felt. Some of these have been mentioned elsewhere, so I’m repeating them to add my voice to the choir.

I don’t have times logged, but these suggestions are basically in order from the opening scene until the end. I’ve refrained in this list from too many radical restructuring type of suggestions and limited it more to “fixes” and “upgrades”:

My suggestions:

• Not sure if the appetite for this, but how about changing the Death Star II design so that it’s less of “A New Hope” rehash? Either a completely new design or one that is less completed?
• If the Death Stat orbits the “forest moon of Endor” should Endor planet be more prominent?
• When Jabba’s door droid (TT-8L) questions the droids, it flicks out a “neck piece” with an audible sound, but you don’t see it retract (or the sound is missing if it happens offscreen)
• Agree with others that the B’Omarr Monk “spider droid” that frightens Threepio upon entering Jabba’s palace isn’t all the frightening. The concept art looks cool though, so maybe the design could get a Revisited treatment?
• Add blinking for Gamorrean guards to make them seem more alive?
• Animate the mouth of the alien frog-dog that barks at Threepio when he is first brought before Jabba
• Make Luke’s hologram more in line with others in the trilogy (desaturate? Less flesh tones?)
• Animate the “hook tentacle” that grabs Threepio after Jabba dismisses them
• Improve effect of Gronk droid being tortured. It’s obvious that steam is blowing out of his feet rather than him being branded
• As others have mentioned, not sure if it’s possible to add facial animation for Jabba to make him more lifelike? Flaring nostrils? Dilating pupils?
• Improve carbonite thaw effects, especially the mould being way too big for Harrison Ford
• Improve puppetry look on Max Rebo when laughing at “Bantha Fodder”
• Reduce Salacious Crumb comedy either by removing scenes or perhaps making his laugh more menacing?
• It looks awkward when the Rancor grabs Luke, and it seems odd that Luke was grabbed so easily without trying to avoid it. Would it look better if if the first few seconds of Luke flailing were trimmed so that it looks like he planned to be picked up with the intention of jamming the bone in his mouth?
• Either 1) cut the scene where Luke hides under the rock, or 2) Add a laceration to the Rancor’s finger when Luke hits it with the rock
• Would it be possible to tone down the comedy by removing the audio whimper of the Rancor keeper, and his subsequent crying?
• Have blind-Han take multiple shots at the tentacle holding Lando before hitting
• Assuming that you filmed a matte for Dagobah when you did it for ESB
• Improve Ben ghost as you did in ESB
• When Leia starts up her speeder bike on Endor her hand movements are obviously sped up. Not sure if you can fix that to make it look more natural.
• Not sure if possible, but add more “wind /speed effects” to Luke and Leia’s clothing while on speeder bikes
• Take out the comical “spinning sound” after Luke chops off the front of the Scout Troopers speeder bike.
• Give the Ewoks more animalistic grunts? Less purring.
• Remove comedic spin when Ewok steals speeder bike
• Show Ewok arrows bouncing off Stormtroopee armour to illustrate the stark mismatch of the two sides?
• Cut out the comedic shot of Wicket hitting himself with a bola
• Add Death Star firing sequence sound effects
• Add blood when Ewoks spear Stormtroopers
• Replace Chewbacca’s Tarzan yodel with something less comedic
• Improve the residual explosions when Chewie’s AT-ST destroys the other one.
• I actually think the Ewok “lasso” and “limbo” traps are believable - keep them, but remove log traps (unless you’re establishing that the Ewok had previously been planning an attack and had time to set these up)
• Not sure if there is any way to make Vader’s backwards somersault when Luke kicks him to look more realistic?
• Add lightsaber glows whenever they come close enough to Luke’s face
• Show impact damage when TIE crashes into Star Destroyer bridge (or if it’s because the bridge deflector is up, show that’s it’s hit a shield and not the bridge)
• Not enough time for Han to get from AT-ST cockpit into his hiding spot beside the bunker door. Not sure how to fix this.
• The explosion of the shield generator looks like it should have incinerated Han and company. Is there some way to establish different geography? Or perhaps change the destruction zone?
• The Emperor’s lightening does have a certain 1980’s “animation over film” look to it. Not sure how to improve that. On my screen the core looks purple. Maybe if it were white?
• Improve matte on Emperor’s death fall
• Improve the power generator explosion and Death Star explosion

If these are well-received I’ll try to come up with more. Otherwise I’ll probably just shut up… lol

doubleofive said:

nightstalkerpoet said:

Was that a mistake, or an attempt to subliminally connect to 4?

I’m sure it was

“BEN, find us a bunch of alien dialog.”

“I could record all new–”

“Nah, just use the stuff you already have recorded.”

I was watching it again the other day and I’m pretty sure that I heard a dolphin at one point. No joke.

JARUS5 said:

I have 3 videos for your viewing pleasure and hopefully, it serves as ideas. As I have mentioned in previous post, I am a firm believer that Boba does not really serve any purpose in the film. So my first video is the sarlacc battle.
https://vimeo.com/232895071

The second video is trying to make Vader seem like less of a lap dog to the emperor by removing the constant “my master”. Additionally some of the exchange Vader has with the emperor regarding Luke feels a bit repetitive so i shortened the dialog between them.
https://vimeo.com/232896122

Last video is when Vader suspects Luke and the rebels to be on the shuttle. I felt it would be stronger if he just gave the admiral a glance which then quick-cuts to Han. It would kind of raise the tension of them getting caught.
https://vimeo.com/232898508

what are your thoughts?

I think that the first two videos are very effective! I was particularly surprised how little Boba Fett is missed, though I don’t know how difficult it would be to fully edit the first one with all of the required audio.

I really feel that your second edit does strengthen Vader… nicely done!

I can’t say that I feel that the third edit is quite as convincing. While I feel that it does up the tension, I also feel that it doesn’t conclude as organically, so it doesn’t feel like a complete scene. Great attempts!

Is anyone else bothered by the carbonite thawing? I’m not just talking about the effects, but also the body mold imprint that Harrison Ford fell out of. I always felt that it wasn’t very form fitting and that the “hole” was too large for Harrison. When all parts are taken as a whole, I don’t feel that the scene has aged particularly well.

ChainsawAsh said:

SilverWook said:

If you show a pile of some bloodied Imperial armor, (or could just look like the helmets were smashed in) in a cutaway as they’re getting ready to cook Luke and company, that establishes that the Ewoks can be mean little buggers in large numbers. Han could be looking at it before he says “I got a bad feeling about this.”

This too.

Agreed. I think this would be a nice way of establishing that the Ewoks could be more credible in the later battles. Nice idea!