msycamore

TEE-AGE-EX both for film and the sound-system standard.

Within the film the characters Duvall, Pleasence and McOmie play seems to most often go with the less formal THEX or LUH instead of EL-YOU-AGE etc. Which I think is a simple but nice little detail that gives it humanity, the characters themselves think of each other as human beings in comparison to the machine they live in where they are just seen as mere numbers and letters in the system. Not much different to the world we live in. ;)

captainsolo said:

The snake reflection can be had from the snippet on the documentary disc (LD master, 4:3 interlaced letterbox).

I'm not sure if it's present in its complete form on that featurette, I know the boulder sequence is. It was the source for the comparisons I made here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Raiders-of-the-lost-ark-bluray-and-colour-timing-changes/post/633298/#TopicPost633298

I don't think the huge drop in resolution would be a price anyone is willing to pay. I don't know, perhaps the sequences are available unaltered in much better quality in the Blu-ray set extras?

Also, in the Blu-ray, the three shots of the boulder they altered are a bit different in the way they digitally painted out the pole compared to the DVD and WOWOW. Different job with different results.

captainsolo said:

The LD audio is a must. I still only watch the trilogy this way because the picture is good to outstanding, and the sound has yet to be beaten.

Has anyone captured the original 35mm Dolby mix? Would love to see that done.

captainsolo said:

Are there also major differences in the sequels across DVD-WOWOW-BD?

I don't own the sequels in any form so someone else will need to anwer that but it wouldn't surprise me if subtle tweaks have been made on those too.

So none, considering how well the "May 2004 Be With You" campaign did turn out last year, should we perhaps try to do another one next year when the last DVD release turns 10. Maybe we can celebrate the 10th anniversary of GOUT as well as the version everybody is going to remember?

What are your thoughts on this?

May 2004 Be With You

team_negative1 said:

This is the new version, that should become a standard, especially replacing Puggo's 16mm for film fans of the original.

What are you, George Lucas?

ElectricTriangle said:

AntcuFaalb said:

msycamore said:

Which means these alterations so far...

* Pan American Clipper Matte Painting: DVD / BBC HD / WOWOW / Canal + HD

* Flight to Nepal: DVD (??? BBC HD / Canal + HD ???)

* Cliff Matte: BBC HD

* Lamppost Matte: BD

(For now) assuming color, reframing, burned-in subtitles, and audio changes are not important, then does that mean that the only altered shot in the WOWOW is the clipper one?

 I think the WOWOW also has the digitally painted-out pole in the bolder scene, right? And the snake glass touch-up (which they all do).

Yes, all post 2003 transfers contains boulder and snake glass touch-ups. There was apparently a HD-master without these alterations shown at one point in the form of the TV-broadcast version, see these old discussions: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Raiders-Of-The-Lost-Ark-HDTV/topic/5591/

A subtle reframing of the shot containing the South America, 1936 title have been done on the Blu-ray, which made me think the title had been redone but that doesn't seem to be the case. Looking at other transfers, the shot have some minor optical garbage present at the top and bottom of the frame so that may be the reason for the cropping in the blu-ray as it's cropped just where the built-in dirt begins. Here the Canal+ HD version might be a good substitute for de-jap.

You can actually see the seam for their color grading of the left wall on the first few frames of the shot:

What a fucking mess. The 2004 master never ceases to amaze me. :)

Btw, isn't the samples in the Reliance showreel just the old Lowry work before the colorists turned it into a candy colored mess?

AntcuFaalb said:

msycamore: Thanks for this! Please keep it coming!

Do you think it would be possible for us to come up with a comprehensive list of changes?

I can pull the unaltered shots from the BD, do a match grade and a match grain, and then plug them right into my WOWOW Avisynth script.

To make a hybrid of various sources sounds like a great idea. It's something I have wanted to do for some time now. A comprehensive list would not be that difficult to come up with as the changes aren't that comprehensive to begin with if color grading and audio is avoided. The way I understand it, the altered shots of the boulder and the removal of the glass reflections in the Well of Souls are present in the DVD and all HD versions. Which means these alterations so far...

* Pan American Clipper Matte Painting: DVD / BBC HD / WOWOW / Canal + HD

* Flight to Nepal: DVD (??? BBC HD / Canal + HD ???)

* Cliff Matte: BBC HD

* Lamppost Matte: BD

A couple of reframed shots in the submarine base...

Top: BD Middle: WOWOW Below: DVD

Reframed shot #1

first frame:

last frame:

Reframed shot #2

first frame:

last frame:

The DVD and HD-broadcast (WOWOW) have more or less identical framing, (the DVD is a little bit more open) it's hard to know for sure if the BD did get a tighter framing in these particular scenes or if the other transfers were opened up without having access to film prints. But if I would make a guess the framing of the BD is an alteration due to the big discrepancy, but it's of course possible it's the other way around.

Will do.

As for the clipper taking off, it was just the different timings of the elements that confused me on what was going on. While the other comparison I posted was in sync frame-wise, this is how it appears when the actual plate and model is in sync with the original (BD):

Interesting, TServo! Looking forward to download these, short on hard drive space at the moment. Please post some screenshots if you're able to.

Huge thanks to Poita and to Antcufaalb for sharing!

I've begun looking at various transfers to see what else has been done on the film...

The whole flight sequence which ends on the matte painting of The Raven in Nepal was also screwed around with for the 2003 DVD version. (restored on the Blu-ray)

Top: BD Below: DVD

Besides removal of matte lines, the shape of the miniature was tweaked when seen on the plate in front of the Golden Gate bridge. The plate (the water around the plane) was also affected in the process. (I'm not entirely sure in which way this sequence was altered, as it doesn't look like just a regular recomp, the result is ugly)   EDIT: It's just a recomp, but the element has a slightly different shape.

Removal of matte lines and digital manipulation is visible when the plane flies behind the clouds:

The animated red line was also redone in the process - in the original I think it was animated over the map and then that was blended with the plane element. In the redone sequence it appears on top of both elements without any transparency, clearly seen in this example:

There's also a smudge visible on the matte painting above the left house in the DVD version, not present on any other transfer I've seen:

What did surprise me, is that the HD-broadcast (WOWOW) contains the original flight to Nepal sequence (despite keeping the redone clipper matte painting a few scenes earlier). However, the HD-broadcast displays clear signs of noise reduction in this particular sequence compared to the BD where some reflections in the water along with optical grain and dirt is gone.

More comparisons of other changes are coming if there's interest.

All Tunisia stuff we have seen on Mike's samples so far are optical effects done in an optical printer to create fades, dissolves and composite work. It has gone through multiple generations. That's why I believe it's rough. Does the following scene after this latest sample exhibit the same noise? I would be surprised if it did.

SilverWook said:

I think Puggo did scan the whole pan and scan 16mm, but who did what with it after that I am unsure.

Wasn't he going to make something out of it when he was done with the trilogy? I still have the extended SEN sequence he sent me.

mverta said:

Speeding to Mos Eisley

If I recall correctly, the plate was originally shot as the exterior of Toshi Station but when they cut those scenes it ended up being used for the entrance to Mos Eisley instead, yet another reason for the sky mismatch.

mverta said:

There's something more to it; I've never seen another shot quite like it, because the ratio between the starfield and the explosion is utterly different on those laserdiscs than on any film source I've seen.  Even if you crushed down the luminance on the explosion - which still wouldn't yield anything close to what we see on the LDs - the starfield would be utterly wiped out, and we know that these LD's don't have spot exposure areas.  So, ultimately, we know that on the negative, all that is in there, but it never made it to a theatrical print, and only the LDs have it - even the 2006 OT DVD doesn't have it, though it does have a yellow coloring.  It's truly unusual on many fronts.

Yeah, I don't know what the hell is going on in those LD's, but it's not natural. I noticed that in the Special Collection LD, often when there's an explosion, the luminance drops. At one point in the Death Star trench when Vaders wingman hit the wall, it basically looks like someone turned off the light switch.

Was checking out that explosion on the Japanese Special Collection LD and it also has more detail in there in the smoke and fire similar to the Technidisc on the last few frames. Still, I guess it's detail that is normally blown out when the shot is correctly balanced. But it's weird it's not there on your scans.

Anyway, your restored versions looks fantastic! So cool seeing all these familiar shots being brought to life. Like seeing them again for the first time.

timdiggerm said:

It's hard to tell, because those are different frames, but it looks to me like that mysterious black line is on the technidisc too. Yes?

Yes, it's there on every print of the original. You can see it in one of the 1997 SE trailers as well. This one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRgsMKu8oNA

mverta said:

Good Shooting, Wedge...

What is seen in the Technidisc SWE LD print definitely is an anomaly like you said, (it appears just like that on the source, so it's not a result of my poor capture or post processing doing something funny either). It happens on several instances throughout the transfer, where the luminance levels suddenly change, to me it almost looks like something tries to auto-compensate or something, the telecine operator can't have been screwing around with it so frequently.

It starts out ok but during the last half of the shot the contrast taper off significantly.

Another example of the same thing happens in the TIE-explosion right before the shot of Vader's line "Several fighters have broken off from the main group. Come with me." In this instance the low contrast stays throughout the following scene:

SilverWook said:

An interesting historical artifact!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-THX-1138-US-Preview-PROGRAM-George-LUCAS-Francis-Ford-COPPOLA-Star-Wars-/161629861887

Note the original running time.

Well, there's that 88 minute running time again. Been around from the beginning it seems, except for that very early promo ad which displayed 108 minutes.

RicOlie_2 said:

I read no such expression on Nolan's face, although I will concede that I'm perhaps not as familiar with it (his face, that is) as you may be.

Ok, ok it was my reaction. Don't be such a killjoy. :)

ratpack1961 said:

Thank you for posting this DGA link.  I must have seen this at one time but watching it again was pretty fascinating.

Besides the preservation conversation, his tale about the editing of the picture is definitely revisionist.  He talks about firing the original editor and then hiring "assistant editors" to help him complete the film.  In George's eyes he edited the film with some assistants helping him.

Those "assistants" won the academy award for their work.

Well, decades ago, the man obviously decided to live in an alternate reality. My favorite moment is when he describes the scripting process around the 9 minute mark.

"I wrote a giant script. The original film was basically subtitled The Tragedy of Darth Vader. And in the beginning Darth Vader comes in and kills everybody and in the middle you found out that this kid is actually the son of Darth Vader, and in the end the son validates, vindicates and allows the father to be ahh..." an awkward pause, Lucas scratches his nose and continues.

It's sad that even in an interview like that, he isn't able to be sincere when describing the writing process of what is essentially a simple fantasy movie. Instead he needs to burp his programmed "Lucasfilm mythology." The expression on Nolan's face is basically "What the hell are you talking about."

ray_afraid said:

^I agree, it looks great!
Except maybe that rock (?) on the right. It looks superimposed and the shadows don't seem as dark as the shadows in the rest of the shot.
Maybe it was always like this though?

Yeah, it's simply a bad comp. The matte painting never successfully matched the foreground elements.

Here's how Ellenshaw describe the shot in the making of: “I had done squares, almost Mayan-like. I put it together, showed it to George … and he sat there in dead silence, which means he doesn’t like something. Then he said, ‘Would it be possible to make it look more like Ralph’s?’ So I went back and repainted it to make it look exactly like Ralph’s painting. But when we put the painting with the plate of the men walking along the bottom of the frame, it didn’t quite come off as it should. So it was decided to add some foreground foliage that would move on bluescreen, and the whole thing ended up being put together on the optical printer: the VistaVision plate on the bottom, the painting, and then the foreground foliage. And that helped it.”

Still, no matte painting was ever made to stand up to our level of scrutiny. I think it worked the few seconds it was on screen.

mverta said:

Much better, the painted foliage or moss near the ground of the temple looked off in your video sample. That screenshot looks perfect in my opinion. Interesting to hear it's one of Ellenshaw's favorites. Another one of those shots revised during the original theatrical run, wonder if Ellenshaw have a story to tell regarding that, if he's even aware of it.

Thanks for the updates. Awesome news! Will be nice to finally get an answer on exactly what scenes Warner Bros cut. It will also be very interesting to hear how much the audio mix really differ from the '78 re-release. Thanks to everyone making this possible! :)

Yeah, I echo Spaced Ranger. Any updates regarding both laser and film print?

mverta said:

Cantina Wolfman 2

The green spots on the vicious looking penis in the DVD/BD is probably just down to the ugly regrading. The cyan looks severely boosted there by the look of the cup in the right corner.

Awesome work in all the videos you've posted.