m_s0

deepanddark20 said:

m_s0, you make a good point about there being no information on VII... It's like this thread starts out by saying J.J. Abrams will direct it, and then from there everybody just talks about whatever they want because that's all we know. Still feels like the focus of this thread should stay on Episode VII though, but if you guys don't care then I honestly don't care either.

m_s0, we are just going to have to agree to disagree in a friendly manner about ROTJ being one of the best movies ever made.... I respect your difference of opinion. (It's probably a mistake for me to mention this right now, but would it make your head explode if I told you I feel the same way about Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom?)

Reegar and m_s0, I have to thank you both for being very kind in what you've said to me. I really appreciate it.

Not to keep provoking, but I definitely think the gap between Star Wars and Empire could be criticized. I don't criticize it, but I just think it could be done (and probably has been done). The gap between Empire and Jedi could be distinguished from the gap between Star Wars and Empire, and arguments could be made about one gap being worse than the other, just like I distinguish between the flaws of the o.t. being acceptable and the flaws of the p.t. being unacceptable, but it's all differences of opinion (which doesn't mean it isn't fun to discuss).

I have to admit though that I really don't like debate, even if I strongly disagree with someone, it's just not my thing personally. I find it exhausting and I'm always dissatisfied with my part in the debate (probably my perfectionism kicking in). I much prefer to watch other people debate each other; I love that actually.

I quite like Temple of Doom, actually. For one thing, it's a standalone adventure and not a conclusion to a trilogy with a very strong middle so there was less to screw up just because of that ;) It's silly, it's juvenile, it's not really as dark as Lucas probably thinks it is (he did say something to that effect in the making of documentary), but I don't mind all of that. Not even Short Round and Kate Capshaw. I actually might've blown your mind instead here, lol.

And don't worry. I'm sometimes ready to start debunking my own posts by the end of a longer discussion. Confrontation allows you to pick up on stuff you wouldn't necessarily think of on your own.

deepanddark20 said:

Reegar and m_s0, I have to thank you both for being very kind in what you've said to me. I really appreciate it.

I can't say I know what I've done to deserve this, but I guess you're welcome.

Reegar said:

A samurai also wore armor, including a helmet. Should Jedi?

Nope, that's already taken:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/WLA_lacma_Japan_Samurai_Armor_of_the_Gusoku_type.jpg

So I guess the robes is all they get ;)

Nah, that post was just meant to give me closure.

So, guys, I sure hope J. J. Abrams knows how to end his trilogy properly ;)

deepanddark20 said:

Sorry, m_s0, I typed that up before your post was posted. I see you already commented on some of my points.

I'm going to stop pursuing this topic on this thread since this thread is supposed to be about J.J. Abrams and Episode VII and I don't think I can change anyone's mind about Return of the Jedi anyway

Hey, when I was writing the previous post Reegar's wasn't there either ;) I tend to walk away from the computer or just start doing something different in the middle of writing a post.

There's no info on VII, though, so we might as well carry on. Hah.

Oh, and I don't want to get into comparing the gaps between the movies, but since Reegar already brought it up I'll just say that the gap between ESB and RotJ always bothered me for a multitude of reasons. I'm probably not the only one.

deepanddark20 said:

ROTJ is one of the best movies ever made

I sure hope not, because that would be depressing. Fortunately, the relatively few movies I've seen in my lifetime lead me to believe otherwise ;)

deepanddark20 said:

I think this is actually a major reason that in the prequels the Jedi talk about a set of "trials" that have to be faced before your Jedi-hood is official. Training alone isn't enough for Jedi status. I think that was put in the prequels to offer the explanation that Return of the Jedi was lacking for why Luke had to confront Vader. Since the Jedi have been disbanded in Luke's time, the official trials that existed in the Old Republic days aren't available to him anymore, so his circumstances have to be used to create a custom set of trials for him.

So what you're saying Yoda's really terrible at making those up. "Yeah, we're done with the training here. So, remember that thing you just did? If you do it another time I'll hand you your Jedi badge. No, the first time didn't count because I said so." ;)

The idea of a final trial is fine in itself. Just have it make some sense.

deepanddark20 said:

 

when a movie leaves room for the viewer's imagination to fill in certain details that are not fully explained, that doesn't always have to be seen as a flaw (though it sometimes is)

It doesn't work in this case, though. What Yoda is talking about has already happened in the previous movie.

Think about it. The whole reason Yoda's able to have this little speech is because Luke's already done the very thing Yoda tells him to do in the speech he's giving him. It's painfully obvious that the scene is there because the movie needs a climax... somehow, but it just doesn't make sense the way it's written.

And it wasn't even that difficult to fix. The idea with Obi-Wan would've been trivial, to name one example. Cutting the mention about completing Luke's training altogether would've created tons of possibilities for the final sequences with minimal, if any, alterations, to name another. Making Luke's purpose in confronting Vader more vague to the viewer by doing so would've already been a colossal improvement. Hey, look, there's some tension in the climax all of a sudden.

Reegar said:

And frankly, I wouldn't be half shocked if Yoda told Luke that to give him extra incentive. It may have had nothing to do with really becoming a Jedi.

What did Luke accomplish? Resisting the dark side? He already did that in ESB when he faced death instead of giving in. Sure, he was pivotal in redeeming his father, but so? Does every apprentice have an evil father he has to redeem before earning the official Jedi merit badge?

YODA: "You must confront Vader. Then a Jedi will you be. Because. . . uhm. . . reasons."

A few extra lines of dialogue or exposition on the Jedi training traditions could have fixed this.

This aspect of ROTJ isn't necessarily what I would call poor writing, but it is lazy. Like most of the film. Aside from the special effects.

Does that remind you of a certain other trilogy?

 

That line would've made more sense if it was given to Obi-Wan. Vader was his friend, after all (not that you can tell that from watching a certain other trilogy), so it's not entirely irrational for him to try to bring him back. Not ideal, but still much more fitting.

Luke facing Vader because Jedi training stuff doesn't really make much sense to me. He already did face him once and passed the test as you pointed out and if it was a typical Jedi ritual they'd probably have to breed their own Sith in order to have them readily available. Or capture them somehow. It gets kind of funny if you think about it.

I also have issues with the Emperor tempting Luke among tons of other things, but then again this might've been inteded as a pay-off to the Dagobah scene. Except there already kind of was one. Man, the RotJ script was a mess.

Baronlando said:

I fell down that rabbit hole last year and discovered that blog considers TFN too moderate and disloyal. They're about a year away from sending suicide bombers to simon pegg's house. JJ and episode 7 are already on their shit list.

What did Abrams do to deserve such fate? The nerds are pretty vocal about how he should ignore the PT, sure, but he's done a good job of avoiding passing judgement on those. There's no details on ep VII yet and Abrams has been very PC and very diplomatic so unless I've missed something they should pretty much love him for not siding with all of the people who bash the PT.

AntcuFaalb said:

CO said:

darklordoftech said:

2. Don't make any effort to be consistent with the EU.

I don't think they are going to worry about the EU, simply because the casual fan and most SW fans (including me) have never read any EU stuff so we don't know the difference.

In saying that, I expect to hear from the EU fans once the ST comes out, as I am sure they will be one of the biggest bashers of this trilogy for that reason alone.  It will be comparable to OOT fans like us bashing the SE.

I actually thought about all the battles on the internet that will probably be going on once the ST comes out:

OOT fans vs SE fans

OOT fans vs Saga 1-6 fans

Saga 1-6 fans vs Saga 1-9 fans

Saga 4-6.1-3 vs Saga 1-6

EU fans vs ST fans

Did I leave anyone out???   LOL!

lol, can we expect originalsaga.com sometime soon?

... or is that just TFN? :-D

I suppose TFN could merge with the Star Wars Prequel Appreciation Society or whatever. It's basically the same thing anyway.

You can be rude all you like, but it'll still be difficult to understand what you're trying to say if you won't articulate yourself clearly. Either here or on the myspleen forums.

It wasn't as successful as Judge Judy, obviously, but it did make some money.

Baronlando said:

 It's like an insane long term prank that people even watch the special 35 years later. The networks cranked out about 5 of those stupid things a week to fill timeslots cheaply but people are like, scrutinizing this one. It's as if someone watched a random Judge Judy episode in 35 years and said "hey! This isn't very good! I was led to believe crime tv in the 2000s was pretty good!"

It's not quite the same since it does have the actors from the movies (which were a modest success back in the day) in it and Harrison Ford happened to have a film career afterwards. He's still pretty well known. I suppose that's what makes this one stand out. I know I couldn't believe they roped all these people (along with all these people who are completely unknown these days to anyone who hasn't been watching TV in the 70s, I assume. I haven't) into a crappy TV special when I heard about the SWHS.

What's wrong with wearing (and taking off) several hats in succession? There's no rush, the BD isn't even out yet.

They cast him because he was a fairly big name. You want a big name in your blockbuster for that additional draw. From what I've read his original part was even smaller, but he got involved in the script rewrites and it got a bit out of hand.

SilverWook said:

m_s0 said:

SilverWook said:

Speaking of the Rifftrax version....

http://www.rifftrax.com/vod/star-wars-holiday-special

Did they somehow get the rights from Disney?

I'm pretty sure the SWHS was there before Disney, and I don't think they got the rights from Lucas :P

edit: yup, it's been there for at least 5 years.

It's the downloadable version that is new. Previously, you would have only been able to download the rifftrax audio which you would have to sync up with the version of the HS they used. That's how they do a lot of Hollywood turkeys.

I'm familiar with rifftrax. I thought they were offering vod for the SWHS for some time now. But yeah, it they switched recently they've probably secured the rights.

drngr said:

Reegar said:

Sherlock Holmes is public domain. Sherlock Holmes starring Robert Downey Jr. is copyright.

Which would be a good point of reference if we were discussing an entirely new movie based on Night of the Living Dead.

The RDJ SH isn't a bad point of reference, because that's what's called a derivative work. It uses a public domain setting, characters etc and creates a new work (it could've been even a straight-up adaptation of the stories) based on them.

http://www.legalzoom.com/intellectual-property-rights/copyrights/what-are-derivative-works-under

Night of the Living Dead is actually an interesting example. The movie itself is public domain, but as far as I can tell (someone correct me on this if I'm wrong) not every version of it is public domain. If you were to, say, buy the restored BD version of it and post it online you might be breaking the law, because the alterations made to that version might constitute a "derivative work". That may be the reason why there's so many different cuts, versions, colorizations etc floating around. It's just people grabbing free stuff, making money off of it and protecting their asses.

Reegar said:

I don't know, I'd have to think on that one for a while.

Good storytelling seems like it should be able to exist objectively, even if it takes a human mind to appreciate it.

Well, I don't think so. Look at the people who consider Empire the most boring Star Wars movie, even though the common view is that the storytelling is masterful in that movie. People have subjective criteria for storytelling and what you may consider objective when it comes to judging storytelling (again, "good", "judging" etc. just sounds weird when used in conjuction with "objective" to me) comes down to a widely accepted convention (which would be an amalgamation of subjective views in this case. Or something). It all depends on your definition of objectivism, I suppose.

My brain hurts. On to complaining about the PT:

Bingowings said:

The second time I saw TPM I enjoyed aspects of it, it was still a bad film but I was less bewildered by how awful most it was.

I could salvage some some enjoyment from the design and Ian's performance as Palpatine, from the pod race, the saber duel and the score.

It was a very similar experience to watching ROTJ for me only less lively and lacking the emotional investment in the characters earned from two previous good films.

The first time I watch AOTC and ROTS they felt more like Star Wars than TPM (because of the superficial design similarities mostly) but on further viewings became more and more awful and less and less like Star Wars.

I'll never forget the first time I saw TPM. It was nothing like the Star Wars I loved. There was no sense of adventure and excitement, no joy anywhere. A soulless husk of a movie, a caricature with a couple of flashy scenes I did not care about anyway. I didn't even see the second until a few years after the third one, but a friend of mine lent me the novelization. Still one of the worst pieces of fiction I've had the displeasure of reading. The third one I went to see because I was curious about how they'd approach bridging the two trilogies.

Basically, all the problems I had with TPM carried over, and many more were introduced in the following movies. AotC is the most offensively bad of the bunch to me.

Reegar said:

You're right, and it shouldn't play a part in an objective rating.

The problem I have with this statement is that there's no such thing as an objective rating. Objectively speaking, there's CGI in the PT. Subjectively speaking, it's detrimental to the storytelling. The first one is fact, you really can't argue with that unless you're a solipsist. The second one is an opinion you can disagree with.

It's a pet peeve of mine.

team_negative1 said:

All the previous shots are color corrected from a very pink faded original.

Ah. That explains it. Thanks for clearing this up.

Reegar said:

m_s0 said:

Reegar said:

AntcuFaalb said:

ANH: 8

TESB: 8

ROTJ: 9

I wish to understand.

You're one to talk :P Seriously, the prequels are a crime against filmmaking and they get every single thing about Star Wars and cinema itself wrong, aside from maybe the casting choice (and only the choice. Maybe) of young Obi-Wan Kenobi. Why would you rate them so ridiculously high? In fact, why would you rate them at all since they're basically anti-movies? Soft spot, nostalgia? I'm genuinely curious.

edit: somehow I managed to miss Bingowings' post. I guess I'd have to ask the exact same thing. I knew a person once who started with AotC and liked that one the most out of all of them, because she thought Anakin was cute. Is that why you people like the PT so much? ;)

Let's place it in a different context for clarity. In primary school, my PT scores equal...

TPM: F- (fail)

AOTC: F- (fail)

ROTS: D+ (pass, but barely, and my view of it may be deluded by the novelization) 

I can almost guarantee you that I've watched Mr. Plinkett's reviews more times than anyone on this forum. I know exactly where you're coming from when you rate them 1's and 2's. The PT's flaws and Lucas' poor decisions brought about those reviews. And those reviews helped me become a better writer with a firmer grasp on character and plot. I borderline like them for that alone. They're entertaining and educational, and left a vast world of entertainment and education in their wake.

Reegar said:

A film like Garbage Pail Kids gives nothing to the viewer. As Doug Walker said, it takes away. It's pain for the sake of pain.

There are destructive films, and then there are bad films that can add to people's lives.

That's a good point. I agree that there's much to be learned from the PT (I did say I think of them as "anti-movies" and not without reason), but I wouldn't rate it higher because of that. That's not a redeeming factor when judging a movie in my book.

Oh, and 1's and 2's are still too good for them IMO ;)

Bingowings said:

3.5 and 4 compared to 9 is that ridiculously high?

That's how I see it. Seriously, the scripts are utterly incomprehensible, the storytelling is non-existent, the acting is abysmal, the special effects are overabundant, pointless and distracting, the editing is so bland it's surreal, and so on. I'm not exaggerating: there's not a single element in these movies that's not poorly conceived and executed so horribly it's almost fascinating. That's not what I'd rate 3,5 and 4.

Oh, by the way, I'm not attacking you or anything, so don't take it personally ;)

Star Wars (1977) was amazing and it still holds up well now. It's a masterclass in editing alone.

ESB (for me) is a better film, almost perfect (ergo 9.5).

ROTJ is a major let down not quite half the film as the original.

TPM is slightly worse and AOTC and ROTS slightly worse still.

I agree with the above completely. However, as disappointing as RotJ may be, it still feels like it was made by human beings who just happened to screw up. The PT is clean and bland to the point where it feels like it was made by Data from Star Trek. He's seen some movies, he managed to get from them that there's people talking and action from time to time, but has no clue why any of that is there and what purpose does anything serve.

I know it's been argued to death, but that's my two cents.

As far as rating the movies, I'm not a fan of numbers. I can say that

ESB is both the best and the one I like the most,

SW follows - noticeably flawed, but exciting and fun,

RotJ comes in third. Wasted potential, but there's still enjoyment to be found there.

Too bad they never made more Star Wars movies, right? ;)

SilverWook said:

Speaking of the Rifftrax version....

http://www.rifftrax.com/vod/star-wars-holiday-special

Did they somehow get the rights from Disney?

I'm pretty sure the SWHS was there before Disney, and I don't think they got the rights from Lucas :P

edit: yup, it's been there for at least 5 years.

Reegar said:

AntcuFaalb said:

ANH: 8

TESB: 8

ROTJ: 9

I wish to understand.

You're one to talk :P Seriously, the prequels are a crime against filmmaking and they get every single thing about Star Wars and cinema itself wrong, aside from maybe the casting choice (and only the choice. Maybe) of young Obi-Wan Kenobi. Why would you rate them so ridiculously high? In fact, why would you rate them at all since they're basically anti-movies? Soft spot, nostalgia? I'm genuinely curious.

edit: somehow I managed to miss Bingowings' post. I guess I'd have to ask the exact same thing. I knew a person once who started with AotC and liked that one the most out of all of them, because she thought Anakin was cute. Is that why you people like the PT so much? ;)

AntcuFaalb said:

DominicCobb said:

The more I think about it, the more I realize I don't want there to be any red lightsabers in Episode VII.

I'll raise you...

I don't want to see more than two lightsabers in any single frame. I'll walk the fuck out if I do.

The PT ruined lightsabers for me.

The lighsabers themselves weren't the problem. The problem was that it was just about whipping the lightsabers out and going to town in the most flashy way possible in the PT, and the only reason for that was that the "story" demanded an action beat every so often. Lightsabers aren't ruined for me. Bad filmmaking is.

I do agree that limiting the use of lightsabers would be a good idea, but that should come naturally with a well-written script.

frank678 said:

RATLSNAKE said:

This is what happens to Star Wars in the Instagram generation? :P

I long for a single instance of someone watching some of it and commenting.

:( 

Give it some time. This is a very niche product you're trying to sell people on here ;)