litemakr

Beber said:

That’s very cool. However, while watching it by bits here and there, I noticed the framing was a bit weird. So I looked closer and saw that the bottom black bar is thicker than the top one and that the aspect ratio is about 2.33:1 instead of the expected 2.35.:1. Hopefully, the eventual v2.0 release will make this right as it should also help getting rid of the “glued frames”, I believe they’re called, which appear frequently at cuts. By the way, do you already have that second print you mentionned? How much money is required at the moment to get it scanned and stored?

There is a rendering issue which caused the lower letterbox bar to drop for a single frame in several places, revealing the top of the next frame. That will be corrected on the next release.

We don’t have a print in hand, but know of one which can be rented and scanned. I am not sure of the exact cost but will do some inquiring.

dvdmike said:

CodySolo said:

The color timing on this can’t be correct, it seems to indicate that the Nazi Party used red flags when it is historically known that their flags were actually bright orange.

lets see how much crow can be eaten over 4 forums
Will it be as much as the crap I had to put up with I wonder

I’m curious to see if any of the staunch blu-ray defenders finally concede that it is not accurate. I spent a lot of time arguing myself and a ton of research. If you take the wowow and reduce saturation, it mostly resembles the 35mm. That is not the case with the blu, the color is fundamentally altered.

CodySolo said:

The color timing on this can’t be correct, it seems to indicate that the Nazi Party used red flags when it is historically known that their flags were actually bright orange.

Lol 😉

dvdmike said:

That colour timing #Mikewasright

Yep 😉

Video
1080p from a 4K scan of a very rare 1982 scope Lowfade Positive Print

Audio
Original Dolby Stereo optical tracks - 2.0 PCM (will decode to 4 track Dolby Surround)

Output
MKV compatible within the spec for a 25GB BD

The intent of this release is to replicate the 35mm experience as closely as possible within the confines of HD video. There are scratches and print damage and several bits of dialogue are missing, primarily at the start of the Well of Souls sequence. The color has been carefully balanced to reflect how the film looked when projected. There is always room for improvement, so constructive comments good and bad are encouraged.

The hope is to raise funds to scan a second print to replace the damaged sections for a 2.0 release. Then alternate soundtracks such as LD, 16mm and blu-ray will be added and some cleanup will be done.

Hopefully this will end (or at least clarify) the debate about the blu-ray color grade: It is (sloppily) revisionist, over-saturated, over-brightened, heavily DNR’d and does not reflect how the film looked or sounded in cinemas.

Screenshots

crissrudd4554 said:

A preservation of the original mix would definitely be good, absolutely!

I do have it from the optical track on a print. I really want the early/alternate mix which can only be found on some 16mm and Super 8mm prints. That has some major differences. This mix is used in film clips on the DVD special features and may have been used for a TBS broadcast, but I have never found a full copy of the broadcast to confirm.

crissrudd4554 said:

penguinofgreatness said:

captainsolo said:

What is atrocious is the complete reworking of the soundtrack from new elements and the abandoning of the original, despite the DVD multichannel mix being a bit restrained  (made very obvious in the new 35mm which used this track unlike the IMAX version).

I may get some flack for saying this but I actually prefer the LD for picture despite the aliasing as it seems a bit more natural than the DVD and it is similar to the VHS I grew up with.

Audio…LD wins. No contest. Hands down. End of discussion. The score’s integration alone nails it along with directional panning and fine detail not present in the DVD 5.1 derived from the 70mm master.

I was under the impression that the Blu-ray sound mix was just the same as the DVD (70mm), with the rears redone for 7.1. Is it really significantly different from the dvd? (I’ve only seen the IMAX version, so I don’t know.) I really like how the DVD sounded.

Sorry if this response is late and if its been answered but yes theyre not the same mix. The DVD mix was similar to my old VHS edition. I prefer this mix personally. I dont know the complete list but I know the BD added some additional ‘richocet’ noises during the gun battles which I really dont like. These ‘new’ noises were also on the 1999 VHS (not the same VHS I mentioned before)

The Blu is definitely a remix. Ben Burtt went back to the original dialogue/music/sound effects tracks and added a few new things. There are a few slightly different sound effects and level changes. A new subwoofer channel was created, which messed up some of the effects IMO because they were pulled out of the main mix and only the lower tones are heard from the subwoofer. The biggest change is they created stereo surrounds, which is great, but also added a heavy echo in some parts, which is rather obnoxious, it sounds like the orchestra is in a cave. There is more fidelity in the music, but less dynamic range in some parts.

Supposedly the DVD is the 70mm mix converted to 5.1, but the surrounds are too loud and the dynamic range is a little squashed. If you turn the surrounds down a bit it sounds very good. The wowow uses this mix. The widescreen LD is a remix, but pretty faithful and has good dynamic range. The original dolby stereo mix from theatrical prints has excellent dynamic range, especially for an optical track. Not a lot of surround action, but still probably the best overall mix and certainly the most nostalgic because it’s what was heard in theaters. It would be great to have that mix directly from the original tapes.

–

Is this the re-release trailer? If so then it is a valid color reference because it would have been created from a timed print. It would be a couple generations removed from the inter-negative, but still not far off from a release print. There could be a shift towards warmer or cooler, but the trailer itself would not be re-timed shot by shot. 

The bigger issue is how the trailer was transferred to video and what could have been done digitally to alter the color, gamma, etc. 

Something else to keep in mind is that films were not heavily changed during color timing in the pre-digital days. They didn't have the ability to tweak color like they do today. The goal was usually accurate fleshtones and colors and consistent brightness and gamma. The look of a film was created in camera using filters and lighting, not in post production.

Looks good. The walls of the bar are supposed to be gray, not orange/red. I do think you went a little too far in the shot of Toht, there should be a little more red because of the fire.

I think your regrades look good but it is a losing proposition with the blu-ray because you can't fix the gamma in some scenes. I'm curious to see a few shots from the opening of the ark, that is the most messed up sequence color and gamma wise. 

hairy_hen said:

Having seen Raiders on 35mm back in 2007, I can confirm that the bar scene was very much not red-shifted on original prints.  It looked pretty similar to the way it does in the trailer examples above.  I remember very clearly taking specific note of this at the time, and being somewhat surprised by it since it was so strikingly different.

Even more surprising to me was that the IMAX release from a few years ago also had a non-red version of this scene.  When I first saw the Bluray, I expected it to be the same since I'd been under the impression they were the same version, but the Bluray has the same red look to it that other home video releases do, so apparently it does not come from the same source.  The IMAX version I saw looked really good, so I wonder why they didn't use it for the Bluray.

I seem to remember pointing this out about the bar scene a few years ago, but I don't think anybody really took notice since I didn't have photographic proof to back up my claim.  So I'm glad to see that it has come up again now.

 The IMAX version had the exact same color as the blu-ray. I was horrified as soon as I saw the opening shots of the jungle. Only difference was more resolution, which really showed how badly they had messed up the gamma. I prayed that the blu-ray would not have the same revisionist color but I was wrong. Screenshots don't demonstrate how badly the blu-ray version looks when projected on a large screen. The Wowow looks much better.

DrDre said:

Here are a few more iconic frames from the film adjusted by the model to match 16 mm colors:

Definitely an improvement, if a bit yellow for my taste. The problem is that the blu-ray cannot be completely adjusted because the color is not just altered but there seems to be an actual filter applied, which has obliterated some of the color and detail. Add to that overexposed shots which have blown out detail (the one of Toht melting above is a perfect example) and you can never fix the blu-ray. That blown out detail and color cannot be recovered and corrected. On top of that, shots which were overexposed then had highlights dialed down in an attempt to fix the overexposure, resulting in a dulled look which lacks vibrancy and detail. Hard to believe anyone ever approved that release. Even with your color correction, the shots above look dull and flat and that can't be fixed.

The Wowow is the only viable HD option available at the moment. And even that has some blown out shots, but to a much lesser degree and without tampering with the highlights.

PDB said:

Those color matches look great Dr Dre. I'd love to use your program sometime if you ever release it for public consumption. Color matching is a laborious process.

Concerning the whole discussion of what Raiders really looks like. One of our members here tracked down a rare 1982 LPP of Raiders. There were only 200 made for the '82 re-release. It was mastered from the same 35mm materials as the 1981 prints only unlike the '81 prints there is no fading. As usual the only thing stopping us is the approximately $600 to $750 it costs to scan it. So would anyone be interested?

 Sorry I've been slow to get back to you via PM, but I am still interested.

litemakr said:

captainsolo said:

PDB does your analog track match the DVD or the WS LD on the staff drop? I've long been curious about that. Of course I just now went back and re-compared the two. The DVD has one sound of the stick hitting, and the LD has it roll around slightly.

The rest sounds the same but the WS LD mix has a potency that isn't in the 5.1. I don't know how to explain it exactly but it packs a lot more punch overall. Additionally the score has some directionality that isn't in the discrete version.

 I'll dig out my recordings of the 1981 release and check the staff drop when I have some time. 

I finally found my tapes. Here is a link to a .wav file with 2 different recordings of the staff drop from 1981 screenings of Raiders. They both sound the same to me. These are from the the theatrical dolby stereo mix, which I *thought* was used for the LD.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/vz81c2

However, when I listen to these tracks and compare to the DVD and LD, the LD is the one that sounds different, not the DVD. From what I can tell, the theatrical dolby mix, the DVD, the blu-ray, the foreign/alternate mix and the Wowow mix all have the same sound effect. But the LD is definitely different. 

The LD also has a slight difference which I have only heard on the blu-ray mix. During the ark opening scene, when the generator starts to overheat there is a screeching mechanical sound before the lights explode. On most mixes the sound comes in cleanly, but on the LD and blu-ray mixes, it is combined with a wind sound. 

I always assumed that the LD was the dolby mix but that doesn't seem to be the case since the LD doesn't match the theatrical Dolby mix or the 6 track mix (DVD and Wowow).

There are some blown out highlights in Lapti Nek, are those in your scan?

This looks fantastic, great, great work, thanks so much. The changes to ROTJ are the most irritating to me so I am really glad to see this is happening and with such attention to detail. 

TServo2049 said:

Does it also have Jock with an American accent? The actor was American, but the standard mix has him with an almost British-sounding accent (like with Aunt Beru, it was probably ADR by the actual actor but doing a different accent)

 Unfortunately that scene is not in the super 8 version. But I know what you are talking about.

captainsolo said:

Also if you could, can you check the under the truck sequence to see if any feature the "think I'm dumb?" line when Indy inserts the whip handle? That very rarely pops up, and is also on the same DVD interview clips.

I agree litemakr that the WOWOW appears to be the basis for the re-timed and remixed "restored version". To be honest I've been afraid to fully dig into the new Ben Burtt mix.

The line from the truck sequence is from the alternate mix used for Super 8mm and 16mm prints. My Super 8 version has it. I'll double check the tapes to be sure but I'm pretty certain it's not there.

The alternate mix is also the base music and effects tracks for most of the foreign mixes. The French mix on the DVD and several on the Blu use it. There are a lot of differences in sound effects and music editing. For some reason they used the monophonic version of this mix on all of the DVD special features. I'd love to have a full copy of the english version.

captainsolo said:

PDB does your analog track match the DVD or the WS LD on the staff drop? I've long been curious about that. Of course I just now went back and re-compared the two. The DVD has one sound of the stick hitting, and the LD has it roll around slightly.

The rest sounds the same but the WS LD mix has a potency that isn't in the 5.1. I don't know how to explain it exactly but it packs a lot more punch overall. Additionally the score has some directionality that isn't in the discrete version.

 I'll dig out my recordings of the 1981 release and check the staff drop when I have some time. 

AntcuFaalb said:

I've now done lots of still comparisons with WOWOW vs. grade-matched BD and I can honestly say that the WOWOW, surprisingly, has more detail.

The software I use for the MatchGrade also has a basic image registration algorithm, so the stills used for my comparison were spatially aligned rather well.

The difference is striking.

I'd like to despecialize the WOWOW, but I can't without access to that 10 year old 1080i MPEG-2 ABC TV broadcast version capture. I'm still digging, but I haven't had any luck yet.

For now we may have to settle on the 2003 "enhanced" version.

I still have to remove the burned-in JP subs from those shots. I may seek outside help to get it done well.

 I'm pretty convinced that the wowow was the original restoration of the film and was used as the basis for the blu-ray color re-grade. Mostly likely they had planned to release it, but someone decided it needed a more "modern" color scheme or just something to make it look different and newer. Whatever the rationale, they inconsistently applied DNR and the orange/gold haze which actually reduced detail. They messed with the gamma and ended up crushing blacks a bit and blowing out whites, especially in the extreme contrasts of the ark opening sequence. Then they attempted to compensate for that by dialing down the highs, resulting in blown out whites being reduced to a dull grayish white. On top of that is a rather odd remix with re-balanced sound effects and music in the surrounds which sounds like it's in a cavern. There are places where the blu looks nice, but overall it's a messy, botched job which certainly doesn't reflect the look of the film. I'm just glad we have the wowow.

captainsolo said:

I noticed the color in TOD comes across differently, especially the deep reds inside the temple itself. Think I'll find a used BD set eventually.

It has been said the WS LD was remixed, but nothing I have found points to this. Some claimed a few sound effects were different, but I haven't found any. This track has music panning not in the DVD 5.1 which was created from the 70mm mix. Perhaps it could be either the Dolby original or abandoned VistaSonic original mix which was supposed to have mixed in stereo surrounds. Either way it would be helpful to compare against the old pan n' scan disc for differences.

I'm pretty sure the reflection is fully there. There might be a way of incorporating that single element with upscaling along with the rods but I agree the resolution loss would be very great. Of course we nitpick here, as it is part of the OT membership card. ;)

Glad to see this thread is alive again. The LD audio is the 35mm dolby mix to my ear. If anyone knows of suspected differences let me know, I have 2 different recordings of the audio made in theaters during the original 1981 release I can check. The only remix I am aware of on any release is the Blu-ray. I believe the wowow and DVD are the 70mm mix.

There is also the considerably different alternate mix used on Super 8mm and certain 16mm prints, which would be great to include on any planned release. I have the 15 minute Super 8mm version, but it's not the full film. I am working on a release of the Super 8 version.

The widescreen laserdisc has a bit more red but definitely doesn't have the orange/gold/teal shift of the blu-ray. It also has correct brightness and gamma, pretty much identical to the DVD, and no overexposed shots like the blu-ray.

msycamore said:

litemakr said:

This is a comparison I made to demonstrate exposure/gamma problems during the Ark opening sequence. That is by far the most botched scene on the blu-ray. It is kind of shocking how bad some of the shots are once you see how they are supposed to look and how much detail is lost. Wowow is better but still has problems. The DVD has the best exposure and matches the look of the laserdisc.

This also shows a digital tweak to the blu-ray I haven't seen discussed elsewhere.

Note that the descriptions refer to the screenshot below them, not above. I am curious to hear what people think. 

http://imgur.com/a/BnYld

Thanks for posting. Your comparisons aren't frame accurate though, in other cases where it's done to show a general timing it may not matter much but in these particular shots where there's a lot of things going on from one frame to the next, it's quite misleading. The contrast and brightness between DVD and Wowow aren't as different as your comparisons lead us to believe. Just an example...

As you can see the Wowow isn't any brighter, the DVD in this shot is actually a bit warmer and more contrasty.

 And this is fucking ridiculous. What about the light in the left corner of the frame, will that one be lit on the next release? It seems like the filmmaker's still can't decide on how they want their film presented, or is it just the computer nerds who call themselves "restoration artists" who simply cannot leave the fx-work alone?

litemakr said:

What did Spielberg tweak in the opening? The boulder shots?

Except for the altered boulder shots, the only concrete I've heard is the minor info we got from producer Frank Marshall in the radio interview the year before release...

"Frank Marshall, the producer of all 4 films, was on "Geek Time" and said the transfers for the blu-rays are done and approved by Spielberg with modifications. All he said was changed was the brightness during the jungle chase at the beginning of the film. Spielberg felt it was too dark. He gave no release date..." http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=21508

Unfortunately I can't find the broadcast any longer, we discussed some of this here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Re-mixed-audio-tracks-on-video-releases/post/579169/#TopicPost579169

You are right about that frame being slightly off. My main point was the difference in the blu-ray, not the wowow, although I still think the wowow is slightly brighter in your frames (look at the sand and curtains on the left). Regardless, the wowow looks acceptable but the blu-ray is too bright for that entire sequence. 

And yes, the continuous tweaking is annoying, made even more so because now they just deny they are doing it. Spielberg made a big deal about the blu-ray being a "warts and all" restoration of the theatrical version and it couldn't be further from the truth. New digital changes, new color, new gamma, new sound mix.  There is nothing original about it.

team_negative1 said:

We should have access to the entire trilogy, the second and third movies are LPP. The Raiders print is supposed to be in good condition, but we don't have all the details yet.

The planning for that is in the very early stages. Once we are ready to announce something, we'll be more definite.

Team Negative1

 I am VERY excited to see that