Hopefully they just stop.
I enjoyed 7, mostly disliked 8, and currently feel really very little one way or the other towards 9.
Rogue One was an interesting side show but I didn’t bother with solo.
So yeah… just make it stop.
This Billy Dee Williams / Lando news is bittersweet for me.
Firstly, I think it’s a crying shame that we got a new trilogy featuring ALL the original cast but NEVER in the same scene or even the same movie.
Secondly, after TLJ (which I am not a fan of) I worry that Lando is just the next in a long line of beloved characters to be ruined.
I have followed this thread with great interest.
I’ve especially appreciated the posts by Wexter and Yoda is [My] Father. There’s a lot more being said than the movie is bad because things are the same and/or different.
Thanks! Happy to contribute 😃
You could tell the story of the events after ROTJ and make it stand on its own. You could even improve upon the originals (a difficult task, but not an impossible one).
I would argue that it is literally an impossible one because people would never ever accept it as such.
I’m not arguing any of the three new movies are better than the OT, but based on the reaction to TLJ, it’s clear to me that no movie could ever eclipse the original in the “fans” minds.
I’m not sure how the “‘fans’ minds” feel about it all, but even the originals are just movies to me.
They are just movies, but I think it’s fair to say that they’ve elevated beyond that somewhat, they are almost modern fables now.
Cave men told stories and drew on walls, we have Star Wars.
Blade runner 2049 came pretty close to equalling or in some ways bettering the original, so it’s not impossible but it is bloody* hard.
*Ive just reminded myself of the FO officer saying ‘bloody’ in TLJ.
Guys, is it really such a problem to accept that different people like different things?
Yes.
Joking!
I’m here on this thread becaue I enjoy seeing all the different points of view.
But I’m also of the opinion that the OT was fine as it was, the story was complete, and we didn’t actually need these new films from a story point of view.
We absolutely didn’t need these movies, but we don’t need any movies. What does need have to do with it at all?
Anyway Rian is supposedly working on an unconnected trilogy so there’s that.
That’s true (although I’d argue that humankind does need stories, and movies are stories).
What I mean is the story was done, it had an ending. These new films are enjoyable and cool, but ultimately they are bonus material.
It’s like so many other long-standing franchises that have a cult following. You just can’t win for losing while trying to be the slightest bit creative.
So maybe they shouldn’t try? Leave the originals and make some new franchise instead of trying to reboot an old one.
Just a thought.
Tell that to George for trying to throw the OUT in the trash in favor of his Special Edition edits.
This whole website was originally born for that exact purpose 😉
It’s like so many other long-standing franchises that have a cult following. You just can’t win for losing while trying to be the slightest bit creative.
So maybe they shouldn’t try? Leave the originals and make some new franchise instead of trying to reboot an old one.
Just a thought.
That is literally “some people just don’t want any new Star Wars movies”. If you think that way, why don’t you just not watch the new movies?
I didn’t say I think that way.
I’ve said in this very thread how much I enjoyed TFA.
I’ve also said that for all its faults (in my perception) there are things about TLJ that I like.
But I’m also of the opinion that the OT was fine as it was, the story was complete, and we didn’t actually need these new films from a story point of view.
If at any point between 1983 and 2015 you’d asked me would you like to see Episodes 7-9 or just stick with 4-6, I would have undoubtedly said ‘hell yeah gimme 7-9’, but that doesn’t mean it would have necessarily been the right answer. Sometimes what you want isn’t what you need and vice versa.
Also, my post was intended to apply to all classic franchises. Maybe we should follow the advice of TLJ and ‘let the past die’. Make some new stuff, move on. (I’m philosophising and not leaning one way or the other).
It’s like so many other long-standing franchises that have a cult following. You just can’t win for losing while trying to be the slightest bit creative.
So maybe they shouldn’t try? Leave the originals and make some new franchise instead of trying to reboot an old one.
Just a thought.
Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9hwGZFPSmw
I actually thought that was great.
For some reason, I really dig showing a ‘badass’ Luke in such an unconventional manner. We WANT to see Luke flash his green lightsaber and go absolutely ham on the baddies with a swish and a shoosh. Instead they showed Luke handle the situation differently. Do you think Luke really wanted to duel Vader back in ROTJ? No, he wanted to live up to Yoda’s early teaching of “knowledge and defense, never attack” but Vader managed to push his emotional buttons to make him choose an agressive action.
Here, Luke found a way to help his friends that involved him tapping into the knowledge of the Force in a defensive tactic without laying a finger on Kylo. Would it be fucking badass to see Luke actually duel? Yeah, and it’s also fucking cool to see Star Destroyer, Imperial Walker, and Vader slashing Rebels but ultimately, those were easy cheap tricks to appease fans, to give them what they want without reason (yes, I’m looking at you Rogue One).
If got a duel where he faced Kylo in a traditional manner, well, it would mean Luke’s character was really thrown out the window. What we have is a sorrowful and broken Luke that couldn’t handle the burden of recreating the Jedi Order alone after failing basically the galaxy and his friends. Rey can now pick up where he left off, now becoming one with the Force, he has the chance to always be there when Rey needs his guidance. Perhaps this is what Luke needed after all this time, someone strong in the Force without the emotional baggage and weight and cynicism.
Bottom line though, what I’m saying is that I flinch a little at suggesting there’s disappointment in not having battle-badass Luke. It’s kinda like asking for the fan service treatment found in Rogue One and this is something we need to stay away from. Constraint leads to something more creative, like Force projection, which also helps keep passive Luke in-tact.
Yes to this post.
Just got back from seeing it for the second time.
The good stuff is still good. Actually better. All the Luke/Rey/Kylo stuff I’m on board with. In places it’s a deep film with complex themes and I like it. I really like the re-democratisation of the Force and the ‘let the past go’ message.
Then there’s the bad stuff that’s still bad on second viewing. The whole subplot, from the moment Finn wakes up in that stupid water/Bacta suit, to his meeting with Rose (she still sucks) to the lame phone call with Maz (how does Poe know her?) to the Monte Carlo planet, to Benicio Del Toro in his worst role ever, to the slave kids (Kids in Star Wars never works out well it seems), to the CGI donkeys, to the failed (and pointless) plan to sneak onto Snoke’s ship, to the unnecessary retread of old ground with Phasma… all that is still just bad bad bad.
And I still say there’s no excuse for poor plots, sub-par expositionary dialogue and jokes that feel like they’d be more suited to a Guardians of the Galaxy movie.
HOWEVER! Some of the dodgy bits that I didn’t like on first viewing I’m now ok with. For example, Yoda was much better now I didn’t have the surprise of seeing him distracting me from what he was actually saying. I like what he tells Luke and I can even forgive the page-turner gag because although it still feels a bit out of place, it’s not out of character for Yoda to drop a little gag here and there, and it fits into the lesson he’s giving Luke (i.e it has a point and isn’t just a cheesy millennial gag for the sake of it).
The Laura Dern/Poe Dameron mutiny plot could still do with a rewrite (IMO) but I can live with it. At least there’s a point to it and Poe has an arc (unlike Finn’s story).
I’ve booked to see it again after Christmas so maybe third time’s a charm? (I can’t see myself ever liking Rose or Canto Bight though to be honest).
In The Force Awakens we saw some Senators on balconies or something as they were getting nuked.
That is the one and only piece of evidence that a post-Empire world existed. And now it doesn’t exist, because they were nuked in TFA.
Otherwise it’s exactly as if the Empire never lost power. Perhaps an orderly off-screen transition of power from Palpatine to Snoke occurred in this universe.
It was a complete soft reboot. Somehow they’ve convinced fans to insist that the First Order is just a small little imperial remnant despite all evidence to the contrary.
My biggest issue with TFA is the whole First Order/Resistance thing.
Like… who are they resisting and why? Isn’t the Republic doing anything about these new imperials… why are the resistance hiding and doing stuff secretly when Leia should (probably) be in good stead with the new republic…
It just didn’t make sense and I had to switch off my brain and tell myself “ok, there’s the empire gain and the rebels again and just deal with it”.
But I think George Lucas wanted to sell toys, and thus needed Storm Troopers and the Empire in the old trilogy.
Seriously, anyone who only complains about Disney marketing apparently is too young to remember the OT marketing.
So true. Just yesterday a good geek friend of mine was complaining about Porgs being on the cover of some new IDW comic and I had to point out that when I was a kid I had a C3PO toothbrush, Ewok bed covers, and loved the ‘Droids’ cartoons.
I can live with the merchandising, Star Wars pretty much invented movie merchandising.
Speaking of other message boards, I just read this on another one, and it’s spot on.
All this discussion and posting really shows the tough part about working on franchises like this - I doubt there was nearly this much discussion, theorizing and fanboying for the original trilogy. It was fresh and there was no internet, not to mention no years of backstories, extended universe and ages for people to decide what Star Wars was to them. I don’t think you could ever make a perfect movie now for it that will satisfy everyone or even most people - again that’s why I respect Rian for doing what he did in this film.
This is why I originally felt that the original main characters like Luke, Leia, and Han shouldn’t be in the new trilogy.
But then I thought about it and changed my mind as I was expecting to have a badass all powerful Luke Skywalker. I figured it’d be worth the risk to be able to see a Luke kicking ass. But then we didn’t even get that. Oh well.
I doubt two years ago people would have said they wanted a Luke Skywalker who was living like a hermit in isolation and doesn’t really do anything in the movie as far as Jedi battles go, etc.
Oh, i think Luke was quite kick-ass in this.
What I mean is Luke doing Jedi master battles and things like in the extended universe. Or even something like the lightsaber battles in the prequels. We didn’t get any of that.
Thank goodness.
Seconded. I don’t want to see Luke jumping around doing backflips and stuff like prequels Yoda.
I probably wouldn’t have wanted to see that either. But would have wanted something like the lightsaber battles in Empire or Jedi, but taken up a couple of notches.
I would have loved a new trilogy about the Jedi Temple and Luke running it but a new Sith Lord comes about and turns one of his powerful pupils to the dark side.
But I think Disney wanted to sell toys, and thus needed Storm Troopers and the New Order in this new trilogy.
You know what would be cool? A Netflix (or HBO or whatever) miniseries about Luke’s attempts to rebuild the Jedi before Kylo was born (or maybe Kylo’s a kid in it).
It could happen. Give Hamill more work and us more Luke. Please.
Was there a “I’ve got a bad feeling about this” line?
I hate that ‘tradition’ and it was never a ‘tradition’ until the prequels anyway, so fuck it. Good riddance.
Um…it was a tradition that started in ESB* and continued in ROTJ, so…?
*Because it isn’t a tradition until it happens more than once
Could it be more that it was a coincidence at first before becoming an OFFICIALLY MANDATED THING in the prequels? I dunno. I’m honestly just asking.
Yeah, what Gaffer said.
Oh, hi Gaffer! Long time.
Was there a “I’ve got a bad feeling about this” line?
I hate that ‘tradition’ and it was never a ‘tradition’ until the prequels anyway, so fuck it. Good riddance.
Um…it was a tradition that started in ESB* and continued in ROTJ, so…?
*Because it isn’t a tradition until it happens more than once
True. But did anybody really think it was a ‘thing’ back then or was it just something that got said?
Know what I mean? It was only really in the prequels that it because a ‘thing’, and then in TFA it became a thing some more (and felt really lame).
Speaking of other message boards, I just read this on another one, and it’s spot on.
All this discussion and posting really shows the tough part about working on franchises like this - I doubt there was nearly this much discussion, theorizing and fanboying for the original trilogy. It was fresh and there was no internet, not to mention no years of backstories, extended universe and ages for people to decide what Star Wars was to them. I don’t think you could ever make a perfect movie now for it that will satisfy everyone or even most people - again that’s why I respect Rian for doing what he did in this film.
This is why I originally felt that the original main characters like Luke, Leia, and Han shouldn’t be in the new trilogy.
But then I thought about it and changed my mind as I was expecting to have a badass all powerful Luke Skywalker. I figured it’d be worth the risk to be able to see a Luke kicking ass. But then we didn’t even get that. Oh well.
I doubt two years ago people would have said they wanted a Luke Skywalker who was living like a hermit in isolation and doesn’t really do anything in the movie as far as Jedi battles go, etc.
Oh, i think Luke was quite kick-ass in this.
What I mean is Luke doing Jedi master battles and things like in the extended universe. Or even something like the lightsaber battles in the prequels. We didn’t get any of that.
Thank goodness.
Seconded. I don’t want to see Luke jumping around doing backflips and stuff like prequels Yoda.
Watched it again last night
I now fucking love this film!!
For real?
I’m seeing it again tomorrow…
Was there a “I’ve got a bad feeling about this” line?
I hate that ‘tradition’ and it was never a ‘tradition’ until the prequels anyway, so fuck it. Good riddance.
Yegads what have I become. I’ve never felt like such a nerd.
We’re all nerds to some degree on here 😉
Not me, no sir! How very dare you?!
😉
That’s a long time to hopefully win a wager. 😉
Yes. I can still remember at work or where ever and talking to everyone who liked Star Wars and had been watching the prequels, and they all loved the prequels. But I didn’t. And none of them could understand why I didn’t like the new Star Wars movies. I remember then watching Revenge of the Sith with a bunch of people, and I thought it was a better movie than the first two. But I still didn’t like it. And everyone else who was there loved the movie and didn’t understand why I didn’t like it. Etc, stuff like that. I don’t even remember seeing any prequel hate online when the prequels were still new in the theater. I remember being on message boards at the time as the 2004 DVD’s were out, and people loving the prequels AND loving the changes to the Original Trilogy. i.e. “I loved it that George added a bump noise when that Storm Trooper hits his head.”
Then years went buy when I started seeing a lot of prequel hate online. I also remember watching videos say in 2010 of people talking about how they at the time thought the prequels were amazing, but “now” realize they were fooled and that they really were crap. etc. i.e. they were in Lucas worship mod at the time.
I think one reason people are “tricked” into liking the new movies is because Lucas isn’t involved in them. And so they “have” to be good.
This whole forum exists because people weren’t happy about the special editions and the general retconning of Star Wars. I joined in 2005 and pretty sure it was around a good while before that.
I don’t doubt that. As I too hated the prequels back in 2005 and before that. So I’m sure there were a lot of others like that as well. I’m just reporting on what I personally experienced at that time. There are a lot of youtube channels right now and even back in 2010 where they talk about originally loving the prequels, but now realizing they were garbage.
Back at around 2005, I wasn’t on “Star Wars” message boards. But just regular message boards where people would sometimes talk about Star Wars and how they loved the new ones. And everyone I knew in person at the time, loved the prequels. I still remember getting some “hate” for being the only person who didn’t like the new Star Wars movies back in early 2000’s. Even in around 2005 or so with Revenge of the Sith, I still remember getting some “hate” from other in person at that time for not like those new Star Wars movies. They liked to give me a hard time about it. Wish I could talk to them today to see if they still love those movies.
I remember some people were excited for that Clone Wars cartoon movie back in 2008 wanting us all to go watch that in the theater. I knew it would be bad and didn’t go with them. But I went on my own to watch it.
The way I thought then is the same way I’m thinking now of these new Star Wars movies and a lot of people “loving” them. I could be wrong, but it just feels the same like in 5-10 years that a lot of people who loved them now won’t by then. But I could be totally wrong on that. Especially since Disney will keep pumping out some kind of Star Wars movie every year including a brand new trilogy. With the prequels, people had years and years to just focus on those movies.
I remember seeing TPM in ‘99 and knowing it was a letdown but not wanting to admit it. Something about seeing lightsabers and title crawls on the big screen again muddied my brain and convinced me it was good. Repeat viewings confirmed otherwise.
I saw AOTC and ROTS once each. Both terrible films.
Admittedly I enjoyed the special editions at the time. I was just glad to see those films remastered and in theatres. But I quickly wished up and realised laserdisc rips of the unaltered OT were the way forward.
In short, I think you’re probably right that people won’t feel the same about these films in 5-10 years.
That’s a long time to hopefully win a wager. 😉
Yes. I can still remember at work or where ever and talking to everyone who liked Star Wars and had been watching the prequels, and they all loved the prequels. But I didn’t. And none of them could understand why I didn’t like the new Star Wars movies. I remember then watching Revenge of the Sith with a bunch of people, and I thought it was a better movie than the first two. But I still didn’t like it. And everyone else who was there loved the movie and didn’t understand why I didn’t like it. Etc, stuff like that. I don’t even remember seeing any prequel hate online when the prequels were still new in the theater. I remember being on message boards at the time as the 2004 DVD’s were out, and people loving the prequels AND loving the changes to the Original Trilogy. i.e. “I loved it that George added a bump noise when that Storm Trooper hits his head.”
Then years went buy when I started seeing a lot of prequel hate online. I also remember watching videos say in 2010 of people talking about how they at the time thought the prequels were amazing, but “now” realize they were fooled and that they really were crap. etc. i.e. they were in Lucas worship mod at the time.
I think one reason people are “tricked” into liking the new movies is because Lucas isn’t involved in them. And so they “have” to be good.
This whole forum exists because people weren’t happy about the special editions and the general retconning of Star Wars. I joined in 2005 and pretty sure it was around a good while before that.
Hopefully this will not go ignored as I am going to make my best attempt to break down the film.
I think The Last Jedi, more so than any other film in the series, relies on parallel themes. First the theme of legends and how holding someone or yourself at a high standard only leads to disappointment and failure:
Kylo with Luke
Poe with Holdo
Rose with FinnOr surpassing you former idol:
“We are what they grow beyond” as Yoda said.
Finn with Phasma
Kylo with SnokeThe Luke complaints in my opinion are unrealistic. Do you think a human being is incapable of making a mistake like Luke did? The whole point of the film is that no one, even a legend, is incapable of mistakes. Someone as great as Obi Wan failed with Anakin. Not a huge stretch of the imagination to me.
There have been a lot of complaints about Snoke as well. He gets no more or less a back story than Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. He is a victim of his own arrogance. Kylo, who couldn’t win a fight with Snoke one on one defeats him the only way he can, by exploiting a character flaw. He thought he was so powerful and knew Kylo so well. He underestimated him because Snoke believed his own myth. He closed his eyes and looked into Kylo’s mind but couldn’t see what was happening right in front of him.
Poe was so disappointed and distrusting of Holdo he refused to hear her reasoning before calling her a traitor and committing mutiny because she was famous and he held her to an unrealistic standard.
Finn’s ambivalence to the cause is reflected through his willingness to run away at the beginning in the escape pod scene. Rose as a result feels betrayed by her “legend” image of “the Finn”. The hard truths of the moral ambivalence of Canto Bight and DJ’s betrayal lead into Finn’s defeat of Phasma and embrace of the name “rebel scum”. These the beginnings of his embrace of the rebel cause ending with his willingness to sacrifice his life to save everyone.
The next is destroying the past and moving forward:
Kylo’s mask
Rey’s parents
The Jedi Tree
Anakin’s LightsaberKylo destroys his mask to move away from Vader idolotry and become his own person.
Rey thought her parent’s identity would give her meaning or the fans thought being a Skywalker would give her a place in the Saga.
The destruction of the tree is a symbol of the end of the old Jedi order and a move away from the religious aspects of the black and white Jedi vs Sith. As Luke says why should a religion take ownership of something as universal as the force?
The final scene between Kylo and Luke is an act of pacifism. He has no intention of killing Kylo. Like Obi Wan in A New Hope he sacrifices his life against a failed apprentice to save the others and “the last jedi”.
The two suns aren’t merely a call back but an emotional parrallel. In A New Hope he was a farm boy ready for something greater and now he is a Jedi Master in the same place he was then. “Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter”
I wrote this in a past post but I don’t think anyone payed attention. A detail I caught at the beginning of the film is when Rey hands Luke the lightsaber he’s wearing white robes. Luke then returns to his hut then puts them up in a box. We do not see him wearing this until near the end. It seems he was ready to die at the beginning of the film and Rey interrupted him.
Let me know if I missed anything.
This is a great post, and even though I still didn’t enjoy TLJ and maintain that huge chunks of it were just bad, this post has at least made me appreciate it a bit more (appreciation being different to enjoyment).