From everything they’ve said about the show it’s about how the Jedi suck so bad, so I doubt it.
Robots don’t have souls in real life but Star Wars droids absolutely do. It’s just one of those tensions that never gets resolved so that the setting can continue to exist.
I like this a lot and it’s similar to how I imagined it. I will say that if the prequels did one thing right, it was the concept of Palpatine manipulating both sides and deceiving everyone. I really don’t like the execution in Attack of the Clones and how dumb they made the Jedi to make it happen, but overall it’s a good idea. I would like it if he’s still manipulating Atha Prime and the Clone Masters with a sort of Sidious persona in the same way he did with the Separatists in canon.
So in yours, I think it’s a little bit too obvious to have Palpatine openly belong to an Imperial Party and Antilles Organa to know exactly what he’s doing. I think it works better if he’s a safe, unassuming, middle-of-the-road politician who lets others do everything for him. If I remember right, that was actually how the Emperor was described in the novelization of the original movie, until he actually appeared in ESB and became a main character.
Vladius said:
There’s no broader discussion of Christianity and Buddhism or exactly WHY monks do what they do. It’s all judged through the lens of 21st century hyper-individualistic modern western culture where everything is about sex and doing what you want, when you want, screw everyone else.I’d want to push back on that. This view is also heavily informed by modern rejection of religious institutions, colored by decades worth of abuse scandals and cults getting exposed (e.g., Scientology and the Unification Church). The “cult that captures children and brainwashes them” doesn’t seem so unreasonable after watching Jesus Camp or any numerous videos of indoctrinated fundamentalist children. The Jedi also acting as an added branch of government doesn’t help much, given how religious institutions have invested in candidates over the years. Hell, I’m not surprised Jedi molester stories aren’t more common within AO3 fanfics.
The intention may have been noble to show monastic life in a positive light, but the execution in the films has left things open to this more critical interpretation. I wouldn’t say it’s wrong at all, but rather just operating off of what has been presented in the media/real-world context. It’s a bit of that post-Catholic scandal/post-911 antitheism of which the internet has long enjoyed.
Of course, I go for the “Anakin is basically a school shooter” philosophy and argue that Palpatine radicalized a long-vulnerable person down the path of the dark side.
I completely agree and I say that a lot. It’s absolutely based on however you feel about religion in real life. I think Lucas could have done a much better job of establishing why the Jedi are the way they are and steering clear of those kinds of stereotypes. I can accept that he wanted the Jedi to be nuanced and imperfect, but it’s distasteful how much he made them look stupid, and “creepy” to modern audiences.
Vladius said:
What I mainly don’t like is all the insane real world baggage that gets dragged into it. The Jedi are like an ascetic Buddhist FBI that is also a fourth branch of government and also the leaders of the military and also diplomats and also bodyguards. The Republic is the Roman Republic but it’s also the United States during the Civil War and also the United States in modern times. The Senate is the Roman Senate and also the United Nations times a million. The enemies of the Republic are the Confederates from the Civil War and also modern international megacorporations. Anakin has aspects of Christ but is not perfect like Christ and ends up being the Antichrist.
All of the religion and philosophy in Star Wars is both Christian and Buddhist, Western and Eastern, per Lucas. Which means that it has both traditional good and evil, and suggestions of Yin and Yang “balance” stuff, without distinguishing between the two.
This all leads to confusion and really, really, really bad takes from fans about what it all means. Stuff like you should be equally good and evil, or that Anakin committing genocide on the Jedi was good and they deserved it. And then you have a bunch of EU writers, Disney writers, and Dave Filoni encouraging this.I think this is actually the strength of the prequels as they are IMO.
Lucas challenges preconceptions of The Story with every subsequent movie starting from “I am your father” in ESB; where the PT contradicts the OT is intentionally in conversation. To me, what’d even be the point of these if the story were only the genre tropes and archetypes we could extrapolate from the OT? The “insane” real world baggage is what makes them worth handling in detail at all. It moves the needle from fairy tale to mythology. It’s not meant to be instructive.
Whatever analogues are in that mix shouldn’t be 1:1, otherwise then we would just be talking about Catholicism. Falling in line to real life historical or contemporary example is a hacky commentative form anyway; the only reality that demands consistency in fictional worldbuilding are the sociological and theoretical mechanics. Any philosophy or culture can be made up in that context, and should. That allows space to work with empathy / thought that real world sensitivities make difficult. If you’re looking for specific analogy, of course it’s incoherent. Of course all of this couldn’t really exist. But the exercise is about how something works, not what they are.
Your mileage may vary on what the difference is, but to articulate how I see the difference: Lucas isn’t writing about the United States or Christianity (just as examples). He’d be writing about hegemonic imperialism and the sociology of principled beliefs. From there your personal engagement is your personal engagement. The murkiness of What It All Means™ is a feature not a bug. I like that we can all have different perspectives about it.
My problem is the lack of different perspectives. The orthodox fan view right now is that the light side = no emotions, the dark side = strong emotions, and the gray side = emotions in check. The Jedi are a cult who kidnaps and brainwashes children into having no emotions. When you force people to have no emotions, the Freudian id takes over and makes them turn to the dark side and snap and commit mass murder, and that’s your fault. For these fans (most of them online), there is no other perspective. There’s no dialogue or moral ambiguity. They took black and white, introduced “gray”, then called the gray white and everything else black.
Never mind that gray is nonsensical and involves being half good and half evil. You can have a little bit of turning into a gray-skinned yellow-eyed genocidal cyborg monster, as a treat. (This is how they describe Anakin in the Ahsoka show.)
It’s blatantly false both in and out of universe, but there is no disagreement about it. This is the consensus. In Dave Filoni shows and other stuff, it’s canon. There’s no broader discussion of Christianity and Buddhism or exactly WHY monks do what they do. It’s all judged through the lens of 21st century hyper-individualistic modern western culture where everything is about sex and doing what you want, when you want, screw everyone else.I don’t want to play the part of the devil’s advocate, but can you really blame the fans for this? I think that Lucas is to blame, not the fans. In the Prequels there is no indication whatsoever that the Jedi philosophy is not based on suppressing emotions. On the contrary, every time we see the Jedi do or say something in the Prequels, you always get the impression that repressing emotions is exactly what they do. Add to that the fact that the Jedi forbid marriage and romantic relationships, and you have the perfect formula for misunderstanding. If Lucas was not able to properly convey his message, then it’s not the fault of the fans, it’s Lucas’s fault. And even if Lucas had succeeded in conveying his message correctly, it doesn’t mean that people should not be contrary to the Jedi philosophy, because you can still be contrary to the idea of celibacy. I’m a collectivist and an anti-individualist myself, but I’m still contrary to celibacy.
I agree 100% and I think I mentioned that in one of my posts. It is Lucas’s fault.
I don’t believe in celibacy in real life either. However I’m willing to accept that it makes sense in the context of the Jedi, and I think that’s established in the prequels, though it could be done much better. Going back to pre-1999 though, they’re even better without that issue.
Vladius said:
What I mainly don’t like is all the insane real world baggage that gets dragged into it. The Jedi are like an ascetic Buddhist FBI that is also a fourth branch of government and also the leaders of the military and also diplomats and also bodyguards. The Republic is the Roman Republic but it’s also the United States during the Civil War and also the United States in modern times. The Senate is the Roman Senate and also the United Nations times a million. The enemies of the Republic are the Confederates from the Civil War and also modern international megacorporations. Anakin has aspects of Christ but is not perfect like Christ and ends up being the Antichrist.
All of the religion and philosophy in Star Wars is both Christian and Buddhist, Western and Eastern, per Lucas. Which means that it has both traditional good and evil, and suggestions of Yin and Yang “balance” stuff, without distinguishing between the two.
This all leads to confusion and really, really, really bad takes from fans about what it all means. Stuff like you should be equally good and evil, or that Anakin committing genocide on the Jedi was good and they deserved it. And then you have a bunch of EU writers, Disney writers, and Dave Filoni encouraging this.I think this is actually the strength of the prequels as they are IMO.
Lucas challenges preconceptions of The Story with every subsequent movie starting from “I am your father” in ESB; where the PT contradicts the OT is intentionally in conversation. To me, what’d even be the point of these if the story were only the genre tropes and archetypes we could extrapolate from the OT? The “insane” real world baggage is what makes them worth handling in detail at all. It moves the needle from fairy tale to mythology. It’s not meant to be instructive.
Whatever analogues are in that mix shouldn’t be 1:1, otherwise then we would just be talking about Catholicism. Falling in line to real life historical or contemporary example is a hacky commentative form anyway; the only reality that demands consistency in fictional worldbuilding are the sociological and theoretical mechanics. Any philosophy or culture can be made up in that context, and should. That allows space to work with empathy / thought that real world sensitivities make difficult. If you’re looking for specific analogy, of course it’s incoherent. Of course all of this couldn’t really exist. But the exercise is about how something works, not what they are.
Your mileage may vary on what the difference is, but to articulate how I see the difference: Lucas isn’t writing about the United States or Christianity (just as examples). He’d be writing about hegemonic imperialism and the sociology of principled beliefs. From there your personal engagement is your personal engagement. The murkiness of What It All Means™ is a feature not a bug. I like that we can all have different perspectives about it.
No, I get all that. My problem is the lack of different perspectives. The orthodox fan view right now is that the light side = no emotions, the dark side = strong emotions, and the gray side = emotions in check. The Jedi are a cult who kidnaps and brainwashes children into having no emotions. When you force people to have no emotions, the Freudian id takes over and makes them turn to the dark side and snap and commit mass murder, and that’s your fault. For these fans (most of them online), there is no other perspective. There’s no dialogue or moral ambiguity. They took black and white, introduced “gray”, then called the gray white and everything else black.
Never mind that gray is nonsensical and involves being half good and half evil. You can have a little bit of turning into a gray-skinned yellow-eyed genocidal cyborg monster, as a treat. (This is how they describe Anakin in the Ahsoka show.)
It’s blatantly false both in and out of universe, but there is no disagreement about it. This is the consensus. In Dave Filoni shows and other stuff, it’s canon. There’s no broader discussion of Christianity and Buddhism or exactly WHY monks do what they do. It’s all judged through the lens of 21st century hyper-individualistic modern western culture where everything is about sex and doing what you want, when you want, screw everyone else.
I am okay with all the weird political and religious imagery mashups. What I am not okay with is the confusion between Good and Evil and Yin and Yang. That’s stupid. It’s based in a lack of understanding of what good and evil and Yin and Yang are supposed to be, in both traditions. I don’t think Lucas intended this but it’s his fault. He was really clumsy with this and didn’t correct it. “Balance in the Force” is such a misleading phrase and there is no reason it should have been put that way. That is the source of this cancer. (It’s that, and video games where you can use force lightning without consequence because it’s cool.)
It also makes the setting really boring because nothing ever matters. “Balance in the Force” for these people means equal light side and dark side, so there’s always going to be mass death and suffering to swing the pendulum back and forth and every victory (including the Chosen One’s) is just temporary and meaningless. Kreia in KOTOR 2 was intended to be a criticism of this idea and the direction Star Wars was heading at the time, but this type of fan that I’m talking about thinks she was objectively right about everything and had no ulterior motives, and they like the setting being boring.
This is the fantasy I always have in my head. I really hate arguing with people about the prequel Jedi, balance in the Force, gray Jedi, Mortis, etc. when none of that crap existed before 1999. Jedi were so much more interesting. They could wear whatever they liked, go wherever they liked, serve causes they wanted to serve, could have families and children. They were much more like feudal knights or samurai. You could easily imagine different factions of Jedi, differing takes on Jedi philosophy and the Force, and non-Sith Jedi villains like C’baoth. There was no Chosen One prophecy, so Luke’s adventures after RotJ were just as eventful and important as anything before.
People who are into the prequel Jedi are easily impressed by what they think is Lucas subtly criticizing problems that he made up. They have no concept that their ideas are stuck in a box when compared with all the possibilities that were getting explored pre-1999. Even KOTOR takes the wild and crazy Tales of the Jedi era and crams prequel Jedi into it.
I do think Palpatine was intended to be a Sith, though. Once the Sith and the concept of Sith Lords existed, I’m fairly certain that Vader and Palpatine were integrated into it.
Even though I am a Prequel fan, I pretty much agree with this. I, too, would have preferred if the Jedi were depicted like in the pre-1999 EU, especially like in the Tales of the Jedi comics. No Chosen Ones, no Balance of the Force, no strict rules against marriage and romance in general, and no Mortis. Like, I don’t mind the Jedi being depicted as a centralized Order who participated in the Clone Wars, had a unified philosophy and served the Republic, but I think that the rule against marriage and the Chosen One Prophecy shouldn’t have been introduced, and that they should have found another cause for Anakin’s fall to the Dark Side. Without the Chosen One thing, the Balance of the Force and the rule against marriage and romance, I think that the Force and the Jedi in general would be way less controversial today.
Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I like a lot of things about the prequels. The Chosen One thing might be worth it just for Obi Wan’s scene at the end of ROTS. That’s incredible. Qui Gon, younger Obi Wan, and Mace Windu are great characters. The Jedi Council, as used in the movies, is a good concept.
What I mainly don’t like is all the insane real world baggage that gets dragged into it. The Jedi are like an ascetic Buddhist FBI that is also a fourth branch of government and also the leaders of the military and also diplomats and also bodyguards. The Republic is the Roman Republic but it’s also the United States during the Civil War and also the United States in modern times. The Senate is the Roman Senate and also the United Nations times a million. The enemies of the Republic are the Confederates from the Civil War and also modern international megacorporations. Anakin has aspects of Christ but is not perfect like Christ and ends up being the Antichrist.
All of the religion and philosophy in Star Wars is both Christian and Buddhist, Western and Eastern, per Lucas. Which means that it has both traditional good and evil, and suggestions of Yin and Yang “balance” stuff, without distinguishing between the two.
This all leads to confusion and really, really, really bad takes from fans about what it all means. Stuff like you should be equally good and evil, or that Anakin committing genocide on the Jedi was good and they deserved it. And then you have a bunch of EU writers, Disney writers, and Dave Filoni encouraging this.
Pre-1999 you could talk about individuals and characters and their traits. Each Jedi was unique, both visually and in their behavior. Now it’s all about a “flawed institution” that people somehow think exists with an analogue in real life. Mostly it just comes down to whatever stereotypes they’ve heard secondhand about the Catholic church that they assume to be true. Wow, the prequels are really a brilliant critique on… this fictional amalgamation of 30 different things that could never actually exist, plus psychic powers.
That’s really interesting. I actually just read Dark Empire and I’m on Dark Empire 2 right now. I still question that internal logic though because the Emperor was clearly Vader’s master, and the Dark Lord of the Sith wasn’t ever subordinate to anyone else in TOTJ, other than ghosts of former Dark Lords like Marka Ragnos.
A New Hope is more convenient for figuring out which movie you’re talking about, but I still say Star Wars or the original Star Wars out of principle
Let’s be honest, TFA didn’t exactly set up the New Republic as geniuses.
It didn’t set them up at all. They’re barely in the movie.
Clearly not. That’s what is so annoying about all the people who think the “light side” equals “no emotions” and the “dark side” equals “strong emotions.” It doesn’t and has never worked that way, but they think it does because the prequels don’t clarify anything. All the source material before Attack of the Clones suggests Jedi with families and children.
This is the fantasy I always have in my head. I really hate arguing with people about the prequel Jedi, balance in the Force, gray Jedi, Mortis, etc. when none of that crap existed before 1999. Jedi were so much more interesting. They could wear whatever they liked, go wherever they liked, serve causes they wanted to serve, could have families and children. They were much more like feudal knights or samurai. You could easily imagine different factions of Jedi, differing takes on Jedi philosophy and the Force, and non-Sith Jedi villains like C’baoth. There was no Chosen One prophecy, so Luke’s adventures after RotJ were just as eventful and important as anything before.
People who are into the prequel Jedi are easily impressed by what they think is Lucas subtly criticizing problems that he made up. They have no concept that their ideas are stuck in a box when compared with all the possibilities that were getting explored pre-1999. Even KOTOR takes the wild and crazy Tales of the Jedi era and crams prequel Jedi into it.
I do think Palpatine was intended to be a Sith, though. Once the Sith and the concept of Sith Lords existed, I’m fairly certain that Vader and Palpatine were integrated into it.
You’re right that these are severe problems with Rogue One being a prequel, but that hardly seems fair to blame the original movie from 1977 for not taking that into account.
The EU had massive editing and retcons but I would argue they were very good at it. They usually took it as an opportunity to introduce something even more interesting.
I think it would be best to just erase The Old Republic and instead write KOTOR 3, and if there’s characters you really like from TOR, just put them in where they make sense.
I don’t know if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but I have just finished watching the fifth season of Supernatural, and I personally feel like it should have been the end of the series. I’m not even interested in watching the subsequent seasons, because the season 5 finale is too perfect for me, so I just want to stick with it and pretend nothing else happened after that.
This has always been my opinion and I’m glad someone else came up with exactly the same conclusion. I think a TV movie about getting Sam out of hell would have been just fine too.
The Phantom Menace
The real question is: why does anyone care about having a consistent canon?
It gives a world a feeling of realism and depth when you can look at any one part of it and think of it as part of a larger whole. Information you get from one part can be applied to another part and vice versa. For example when you watch the movies and see Palpatine and Vader doing Sith stuff, you can fully appreciate that they’re part of a 5000 year tradition and a 1000 year plan within that tradition. You can play a video game, watch a movie, read a comic book, and it all “counts.”
When it works it’s really cool. The issue is that when massive duds come up, the people making the whole project have to consider them canon to stay consistent.
I think that eliminating Attack of the Clones may also benefit a potential prequel trilogy that includes a film edit of Kenobi as the new Episode III. We end up having a big time skip between 1 and 2, followed by a big time skip between 2 and 3.
Yeah you can arrange it lots of different ways. I don’t like the Kenobi show but you could slot in Rogue One, Solo, Andor, etc. after it or various Clone Wars media before it.
I’ve come around to thinking that it is actually better to watch the movies in release order overall, at least for a first time viewer (if there are any left.)
The titling would be okay if the shows were actually about the people in the titles. Obi Wan Kenobi is about Princess Leia and Riva, Book of Boba Fett is about Fennec Shand and The Mandalorian, The Mandalorian is now about Mandalorians plural who are not The Mandalorian, and Ahsoka is about the whole cast of Rebels minus Zeb. Andor is mostly about Andor but it’s also about several other people who barely interact with Andor.
It’s unclear who can use the Force in the original trilogy. It definitely appears like it’s only certain people, because Luke can be a Jedi since his father was (in the original Star Wars.) Then in ROTJ he talks about the Force being strong in his family, which indicates it can be less strong for other people.
Also keep in mind that we do know that the Force requires training and building up over time. Yoda establishes the principle of do or do not and the power of belief, but he also gives Luke training at the same time. He doesn’t just sit him down in the hut and make him try to believe really hard. As of ESB, Luke can just barely move his lightsaber out of the ice or levitate rocks, because he’s had limited training.
You could make the case that sometimes you’re able to go above and beyond with less training when the circumstances are right, like Luke making the shot on the Death Star. But somehow that feels different from Sabine doing a premeditated force lift thing.
The show has been so boring due to the subpar writing, acting & directing. None of the characters appear to have any inner life. They seem like characters in a video game just waiting for the prompt to say their lines. Chatbots have more depth.
& once again we have another series where heroes & villains make one stupid decision after another in order to get from one lazy plot point to another. There is no dramatic tension & the stakes don’t feel real.
Thrawn doesn’t feel like a threat to the galaxy because he comes across as an idiot. He has always been, to an extent, a stupid person’s idea of a genius - his ability to outwit an enemy based on psychological flaws revealed by a species’ cultural artefacts was laughably ridiculous - but at least Zahn tried to make him seem efficient & ruthless. In Ahsoka he just comes across as a cartoonish incompetent buffoon.
Filoni has shrunk the galaxy - & even his new galaxy seems to amount to nothing more than a barren & misty moor in northern England.
The art psychoanalysis is ridiculous, but at least it’s different enough to be interesting.
I think the reason Thrawn still feels like such a towering threat is because there’s been no competent villain in any Star Wars movie past the OT. The bar is so low here that even a halfway decent Imperial commander would feel like a terrifying mastermind.
The art psychoanalysis is cool and it’s believable in a setting like Star Wars. There’s lots of people with mental and magic powers, and there are lots of varied alien races. It’s not too different from the real life concept that a culture is heavily shaped by their language, what they do or don’t have words for, and how they express things.
This show has been a snoozefest.
I genuinely don’t get why Filoni is held in such high regard, as I tend not to like his stuff very much.It’s one thing to feel a season of a show would’ve been better as a film, but I feel this one would’ve been better as half a film. To have spend close to 8 hours on this story so far, it doesn’t feel worthwhile.
It’s five things:
It’s not really about quality, more like recognition.
If you ask me, I say Kreia would greatly approve of Baylan Skoll. Anyone else agree?
That seemed to be the direction they were leaning into, but they were also really afraid of actually having substantive dialogue between characters, so we don’t know what his plan was. It’s bizarre that the conversation between him and Shin about what he really wants and what they’re doing is seemingly years into their relationship, and many days into their crucial mission.
Everything everyone else said is right. I wasn’t rooting for the show to get better because that would just be wasted, but it’s fun to watch it to pick it apart anyway.
I have no problems with Thrawn’s casting. He does the voice really well, which makes sense. The issue is the writing, of course. They didn’t really have a way to make him tactically genius. His main gimmick seems to be commenting on acceptable losses.
Mercenaries die. Ah, an acceptable loss.
Baylan quits. Ah, an acceptable loss.
Stormtroopers die. Ah, an acceptable loss.
TIE fighters run into the enemy ship for no reason. Ah, an acceptable loss.
Morgan dies. Ah, an acceptable loss.