Octorox

SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

Octorox said:

I have to disagree with everyone about the stormtrooper chatter. Even tho it wasnt the best technically it was one of my favorite changes. I did notice the music was mixed very low on a lot of parts tho. Also, I'd pitch up Anakin's VO. He sounds just a little too manly, I feel he should retain Luke's awkward man-boyishness. Also I noticed prevalent fade in fade outs, which goes against Star Wars editing conventions.

 'Prevalent' is the correct word (it was only used, what, twice?). Because the fading out technique was used in ANH. As the droids follow Luke into the garage.

I got to watch it last night and really really enjoyed it! I thought i'd comment on the fades because that didn't actually bother me...it felt very natural...like out of the OT...i feel Lucas should have used it at times in the PT...not just limiting himself to wipes only. Also I would've like Lucas to use more hard cuts...why so many wipes?

I'm gonna write up a full review soon....just thought i'd throw that in there.  ;)

Yeah but a lot of these fades were very long and had audio over them, which never happened in the OT. I think it's interesting but I'm not sure if it fits within Star Wars style

I have to disagree with everyone about the stormtrooper chatter. Even tho it wasnt the best technically it was one of my favorite changes. I did notice the music was mixed very low on a lot of parts tho. Also, I'd pitch up Anakin's VO. He sounds just a little too manly, I feel he should retain Luke's awkward man-boyishness. Also I noticed prevalent fade in fade outs, which goes against Star Wars editing conventions.

Darth Venal said:

Ghost said:

Darth Venal said:

shanerjedi said:

ESB is such a great looking fantasy film.

 Great direction

 Why didn't Irvin Kershner direct ROTJ?  One can only wonder what it would of been.

 

Indeed. Kirschner might have been busy, I forget now. I know Lucas asked him if he wanted to direct Attack of the Clones, but Kirsch declined because of his age. Some people say that's a myth that Lucas asked him, but I was told from a pretty close source that it's true. If only again!

 wow! That's interesting tidbit. Do you think the film would have been shot on 35mm if Kirsh directed it or do you still think Lucas would have pushed for the Sony HDCAM or whatever sub-2k nonsense he shot it on. I really think that film would have been much better and maybe jived better with Phantom Menace (which I actually enjoy quite a bit) if someone else had directed it.

Darth Venal said:

shanerjedi said:

Darth Venal said:

shanerjedi said:

Darth Venal said:

shanerjedi said:

Ghost said:

True 005.  I'd still take him out of the SB battle, unless someone can make the battle unbelievable.

What makes something unbelievable is the difference from ordinary.

So these movies build towards bigger moments. That's why the climax is in the third act, not the first 30 mins.

I think that one's even above cardinal rules.

Yeah, I don't think Hollywood invented that. I think it was the Greeks. :)

Cardinal rules, not carnal rules!

(In that case it would be about 15 minutes.)

Haha! Ah geez. You know what I meant by Greeks. Storytelling! :p

 

 

Yeah I did, but I couldn't resist. :-)

You know, we sing the praises of of explorers and scientists and all the great minds in our history, but no-one ever mentions the guy who discovered that the conclusion of a story should go at the end. I mean, the guy deserves some recognition, no?

I believe that was Ric's revelation

Darth Venal said:

Octorox said:

I know it doesn't apply in this situation. Star Wars is very classical 3-act based. I was just saying that I don't like the idea that it's "breaking the cardinal rule of filmmaking" to get away from the plot. I think someone who doesn't know a lot about film like Ghost could get the wrong idea from that statement.

Well, the intention was to point out what the conventions are. If Ghost wants to get into anything film related, he needs to know the rules before he tries to break them. The vast majority of films use the same structure. It's a fact. Yes, film is much more than that, and I totally encourage people to learn as much as they can about the medium and its history, but if someone wants a realistic chance of knowing what they're doing, they need to know the basics.

And getting away from the plot, regardless of structure, is breaking the cardinal rule of filmmaking. If you're trying to tell a story, then you stick to telling the story. It's that simple, regardless of the sort of movie you're making. Sorry, but it IS that simple.

Yes, but still, continuity narrative filmmaking, not filmmaking in general. I'm sorry,  guess my argument is irrelevant to Star Wars, I guess I just don't deal in absolutes :p

Ghost said:

I think someone who doesn't know a lot about film like Ghost could get the wrong idea from that statement.

 

Look, I already cleared up what I meant to say. If you would read previous pages, you probably would have a better idea of what your talking about. I'm not that stupid to say break away from the plot.  I know alot about the film btw, believe me, that's why I'm here. 

I wasn't trying to insult you. Sorry.

shanerjedi said:

Octorox said:

Darth Venal said:

Ghost said:

Sometimes you need to break from the story a little bit to make the overall movie better to watch. 

Christ, are you joking? If there is one, single cardinal rule of film-making, it is that you never, ever break from the story. Everything else is secondary. Everything, be it some fantastic scene that you really want to keep, or a great FX sequence. If they don't contribute to the plot, they have to go. If you don't get that, don't waste time trying to do anything with movies.

Do you know why people got bored with the fights and battles in the prequels? Because they wasted time showing us "pretty stuff to watch" when they should have been advancing the story. Yes, you can have duels and battles. But they should serve their function to the plot and nothing more.

 

Correct, one, single cardinal rule of Hollywood filmmaking. If you're talking about a 3 act narrative structure yes. If you're talking about an episodic structure, no. Ever heard of Italian neorealism? It tends to "waste time" on small everyday events that often don't have anything to do with the narrative, but allow the characters to breathe and reflect their reality, as if they were you and I. Also, when a film has a very deep message, it is usually a good idea to force some long takes to give the audience a chance to reflect on what they just saw.

You're also completely throwing experimental or non-narrative structure out of the window.

 

Sorry, I'll shut up now. I believe you are in the industry and I'm a lowly first year film student so I probably don't know what I'm talking about...but yeah I would say in a Star Wars film you wouldn't want long breaks from the narrative.

This isn't art-house cinema. This isn't Dinner with Andre. This is traditional narrative film making. So Venal and Bingo are correct in pointing out the importance of set-up,conflict, and resolution.

I know it doesn't apply in this situation. Star Wars is very classical 3-act based. I was just saying that I don't like the idea that it's "breaking the cardinal rule of filmmaking" to get away from the plot. I think someone who doesn't know a lot about film like Ghost could get the wrong idea from that statement.

Darth Venal said:

Ghost said:

Sometimes you need to break from the story a little bit to make the overall movie better to watch. 

Christ, are you joking? If there is one, single cardinal rule of film-making, it is that you never, ever break from the story. Everything else is secondary. Everything, be it some fantastic scene that you really want to keep, or a great FX sequence. If they don't contribute to the plot, they have to go. If you don't get that, don't waste time trying to do anything with movies.

Do you know why people got bored with the fights and battles in the prequels? Because they wasted time showing us "pretty stuff to watch" when they should have been advancing the story. Yes, you can have duels and battles. But they should serve their function to the plot and nothing more.

 

Correct, one, single cardinal rule of Hollywood filmmaking. If you're talking about a 3 act narrative structure yes. If you're talking about an episodic structure, no. Ever heard of Italian neorealism? It tends to "waste time" on small everyday events that often don't have anything to do with the narrative, but allow the characters to breathe and reflect their reality, as if they were you and I. Also, when a film has a very deep message, it is usually a good idea to force some long takes to give the audience a chance to reflect on what they just saw.

You're also completely throwing experimental or non-narrative structure out of the window.

Sorry, I'll shut up now. I believe you are in the industry and I'm a lowly first year film student so I probably don't know what I'm talking about...but yeah I would say in a Star Wars film you wouldn't want long breaks from the narrative.

Josh said:

By the way Octorox, what did you think of anakins new voice, did it work?

 

I think it works for the most part. The new dialogue is weaved in convincingly and really adds a lot. The quality of the voiceover itself leaves a bit to be desired but It's probably better than I could do. I didn't find it distracting like I thought I would have though.

xhonzi said:

Octo- I don't think that tact is far off subject:  Why does [modern literature] hate [good and evil]?

It reminds me of a great line in Zero Effect (one of my faves, by the by): Zero has more or less stated that does his job to protect innocent people from evil people.  You know, the bad guys.  His assistant, goes off on him, There aren't evil guys and innocent guys. It's just... It's just... It's just a bunch of guys!

I do agree that there is good and evil in all of us.  However, I do think there is actual good and evil.  I do think that there are people we can accurately call "Good" because they are overwhelmingly so.  And likewise I believe there are people we can call "Bad" or "Evil".  Or, rather, "Heroes" and "Villains."

Moral relativism says that "This is true/good for you, but it is false/bad for me."  That I don't agree with.  I think truth is truth, and good is good, and that there are people who wrongly disagree.  But that's me.

Thanks for the reply. I agree. For a good example of a fictional character who sees the world in black and white in a world of gray I would look at Rorschach from Watchmen. It's easy to empathize with the character, he's seen so much evil in his life, and he is well intentioned but it also easy to look at the flaws in his philosophy and modus operandi. I don't think I believe in complete moral relativism either, but I believe in shades of gray, I believe people can change (although realistically some people are mentally beyond that point) and I believe in keeping and open mind and looking at an issue from all sides, "stepping in the other person's shoe" if you will. Although it seems vote-for-palpatine would believe I think mass murder is justified :(...although again that's a question Watchmen looks at, I'd definitely recommend it, film or novel.

vote_for_palpatine said:

Octorox said:

vote_for_palpatine said:

That's the way the world in general is going. No one's right, no one's wrong, good people are oppressors/exploiters, bad people are misunderstood victims of circumstance. Authentic hero/villain stories are rare, but they will sell (Dark Knight, for one) in large part because the fictionsphere is chock full of liquid morality. People don't inherently believe all of that relativist stuff, but that's more or less all that's out there right now.

 

Because in the real world there are no heroes and villians. There is no black and white. Not to say that the psychology of the characters in the prequels was realistic or rational, it wasn't. But moral relativism is a fact. people's behavior is based on the their life experiences and circumstance, and the way you described moral relativism as "good guys = oppressors and bad guys=misunderstood" is a gross oversimplification and in itself black and white. No one is born into this world as "evil", we all have both good and evil in is, it's just that sometimes one side takes over. While the original "Star Wars" was pretty black and white, the OT as a whole was all about moral relativism. The old Jedi, caught up in their dogmatic way of seeing the world, were sure that Anakin was "evil" and thats that. Luke however, saw his whole person and knew that somewhere, the "good" in his father was there, buried deep down but there. When you reduce the human psyche to "good guys and bad guys", "us and them", you turn human beings into symbols, which is okay for pure popcorn entertainment and fictional characters but It's far removed from any remotely true representation of humanity or realism. You're dealing with archetypes or symbols then, not people. But I digress...this board is about Star Wars, not moral relativity...although none of the threads in this board seem to be able to stay on topic :p

 I had no idea.

So then it must follow that mass murderers such as Stalin were not truly committing acts of evil - our biased, Western perception of what is good and what is bad made Stalin appear to be evil. He was, in reality, no worse than Roosevelt or Truman. I think I've got it.

There's no need to give me a sarcastic retort. I was just stating my philosophy. And yes, Stalin did a lot of terrible things. No one is saying Truman and Roosevelt were on the level of Stalin, they didn't assassinate mass numbers of people for not agreeing with them. I'm not sure I believe in complete moral relativism, there are certain values that all human beings share. But just because Stalin did awful things doesn't mean Russians = bad, Americans= good. It doesn't even mean that Communism = bad, Capitalism = good. Many brutal dictators have upheld regimes of neoliberalism and corporatism against the people's will and the CIA and American corporations have supported and equipped those dictators. Many brutal dictators have upheld regimes of communism and socialism against the people's will and the Soviets supported them. But I don't think we should just say "bad guy! lets blow em' up and be done with it!" I think we should take some time to look into the social conditions that allowed for that person's rise to power, allowed this terrible things to happen, and allowed for that person's psyche to be developed in that way. That doesn't mean that person shouldn't be stopped. They certainly should, of course.

Anyway, I don't really want to have a political debate. I'll admit that I'm not incredibly knowledgeable of such things, I'm only going on what I know. We are talking about fiction here, and you haven't addressed any parts of my answer that dealt with Star Wars, let's focus on that and how morality is presented in that piece of fiction.

Trooperman said:

OK- I got them out today. 

 

wow...just wow. amazing. Just got mine in the mail today and watched it. It's just a fantastic project. Certainly very rough, feels a bit like a workprint, not all of your choices I agree with, but I mean, you totally changed the mood and emotion of the film. It WORKS now! I mean wow...wow. If you need any help with anything, voice acting or otherwise, let me know, I may be able to help at some point. I'd comment on some specific sections, but I just want to let everyone see it first. I'll tell you I had a smile on my face when the clone troopers first showed up in battle. The music choices are interesting, they are definitely an improvement over the film's often bland OST but a lot of it feels TOO old. Like beyond star wars 77 old, like it belongs in a foreign film from the 40s or something. Same with the editing, a lot of it disregards continuity for emotion which I'm not sure is very Star Wars. The film feels older, it feels rawer and it works dramatically but I'm not sure if it feels like Star Wars, it doesn't feel 80s at all. I think this is definitely closer to what George wanted with the whole "classic romance" thing because it's much more sincere than the original. but again, wow. most ambitious edit ever and on all accounts it succeeds!

vote_for_palpatine said:

That's the way the world in general is going. No one's right, no one's wrong, good people are oppressors/exploiters, bad people are misunderstood victims of circumstance. Authentic hero/villain stories are rare, but they will sell (Dark Knight, for one) in large part because the fictionsphere is chock full of liquid morality. People don't inherently believe all of that relativist stuff, but that's more or less all that's out there right now.

Because in the real world there are no heroes and villians. There is no black and white. Not to say that the psychology of the characters in the prequels was realistic or rational, it wasn't. But moral relativism is a fact. people's behavior is based on the their life experiences and circumstance, and the way you described moral relativism as "good guys = oppressors and bad guys=misunderstood" is a gross oversimplification and in itself black and white. No one is born into this world as "evil", we all have both good and evil in is, it's just that sometimes one side takes over. While the original "Star Wars" was pretty black and white, the OT as a whole was all about moral relativism. The old Jedi, caught up in their dogmatic way of seeing the world, were sure that Anakin was "evil" and thats that. Luke however, saw his whole person and knew that somewhere, the "good" in his father was there, buried deep down but there. When you reduce the human psyche to "good guys and bad guys", "us and them", you turn human beings into symbols, which is okay for pure popcorn entertainment and fictional characters but It's far removed from any remotely true representation of humanity or realism. You're dealing with archetypes or symbols then, not people. But I digress...this board is about Star Wars, not moral relativity...although none of the threads in this board seem to be able to stay on topic :p

Darth Venal said:

Bobocop said:

I'd like to see any future edits do something about "stolen data tapes."

I'm not sure what one could or should change it to, maybe just "stolen plans," but as advanced as they are, they probably wouldn't be storing information on tapes.

It's the only thing aside from the old CG Death Star in the briefing that was fixed for Revisited that jumps out to me as seeming dated.

"Tapes" does sound rather archaic, but I kind of like it because it plants Star Wars exactly when it was made. I think too much modernising will ruin the movie, because no matter what you do, it's always going to look like it was made in the 1970s.

And who's to say they don't have some super hi-tech form of tape? Even though we have mega-capacity discs these days, digital information is still stored on tapes a lot of the time. When a movie is shot digitally, for example, all that information is actually stored on tape, not disc.

A lot of digital films (oxymoron eh) record directly to solid state and hard disks as well, like the RED camera used on District 9, The Lovely Bones and a whole mess of other stuff.

Darth Venal said:

Was that Ten Numb?

We could definitely do with more women in these movies, even if the best we can do is background characters. It's odd enough that there is only one significant female role in the entire trilogy, plus Aunt Beru and Mon Mothma in much smaller parts, never mind that there are hardly any background females either. Weird. I know the Jedi were a bit of a boys-only club, but come on...

Maybe we just need to revoice Ackbar as a women. Could work. I get upper class English woman, the bossy type. Hattie Jacques. Give Ackbar a voice like that.

ummm.....or no. Sorry but you just can't get rid of "It's a Trap!". You just cant. sorry.

@ Skyjedi

I didn't think Pine's Kirk and Hayden's Anakin fit the same mold at all. From what Iv'e seen, Hayden fits the James Dean mold but Pine felt a lot more like a Han Solo type character to me. Yeah he's a rebel but In a kind of smartass, macho kind of way, quite different from Hayden's "anguished teen/brooding/emotionally unstable" vibes

TV's Frink said:

shanerjedi said:

Oh yes, the dealer at the nightclub. He has such a great name: Elan Sleazzbagganno.

Not making that up.

I can confirm that.  I discovered that awful fact when I first started working on EP 2 cutlists.  The "anno" at the end makes him sound kind of alien-y, I guess.  I read a review of AOTC somewhere that accused Lucas of letting his kids name the aliens, based on Dexter Jetser or whatever the hell his name was.

I'm pretty sure his kid did name JarJar Binks

ChainsawAsh said:

Octorox said:

Ripplin said:

Bewy said:

Ripplin said:

Do the green screens need to be real studio green screens? Wouldn't painted cardboard work? :p

It's gotta be a special paint to make a real greenscreen, and it's not cheap...

Actually, I do remember hearing that somewhere before, now that I think of it. Thanks.

I know that borrowing things can be a sticky wicket (yub nub!), so it gets more understandable the more you think about it.

Not true. Paint a wall a good lime green and you're good to go. it just has to be well lit.

Color doesn't matter, as long as the subject in front of the green/blue/orange/whatever screen has very little of that color in it.  Keying software can key out any color you want.

And Octorox is right, the background you're keying out needs to be lit as uniformly as possible.  Ideally it'd be exactly one color with no variations, but this probably isn't possible, so you'll just have to get as close to that as you can.

(We've been doing a lot of work with keying in my Motion Graphics II class, in case you were wondering where I'm getting my information.)

Oh yeah, I know, lime green generally works better though because it's an uncommon color. unless your keying a lime that is, then I would recommend orange ;)

Ripplin said:

Bewy said:

Ripplin said:

Do the green screens need to be real studio green screens? Wouldn't painted cardboard work? :p

It's gotta be a special paint to make a real greenscreen, and it's not cheap...

Actually, I do remember hearing that somewhere before, now that I think of it. Thanks.

I know that borrowing things can be a sticky wicket (yub nub!), so it gets more understandable the more you think about it.

Not true. Paint a wall a good lime green and you're good to go. it just has to be well lit.

Is it just me or does the color correction that trailer look way better than the DVDs? The Tantive halls are white like in Ady's version

TheBoost said:

Erikstormtrooper said:

 

For the record, removing the garbage mattes is the only change that I think should be made to the OT for a proper home release. That's it. This is not a slippery slope. I still say it's a result of the movies being brightened for TV viewing.

 You make a good point that a DVD release is not the exact same animal as a theatrical relaease, and by its very nature changes the presentation in some ways.

I personally have no problem with the mattes, and in all honesty if they were removed I probably wouldn't notice much (same with Empy's "slugs" in certain shots of ROTJ, they weren't visisble on the silver screen).

Really, I'd be happy either way

http://vimeo.com/6937862

Molly said:

All the movies, except #1, are definitely available OAR with English in Europe.  In Japan 1-3 come with dual audio (2 is a bit of a noobjob and 3 is an alternate cut); 4-5 have issues that make DA impossible (4 is a radically different cut, 5 just has one big cut right at the beginning).  After that it's easy enough to synch them up (I've done 6-10).

I've got various projects going related to Pokémon myself (I'm trying to fansub it but keep having translators walk on me; I'm also trying to improve on the DVDs).  Actually, the R1 DVDs are better than VHS quality. (They do seem a bit more compressed than the R1 singles, though, which I'm trying to acquire.)  The season 2 (Orange Islands) and 5 sets are crammed.

Now, as for edits - there's not a lot of edits until you get to Johto League Champions.

R2s?  I wish!  I think everyone's trying to find R2s of Pokémon but there really aren't any.  A few eps were released shorn of their opening and closing on special DVDs but otherwise you're only likely to find eps. 119-138, 207 and 245 of the original series on R2.  In many cases, the R1 is in fact the best quality video out there.  Depressing, isn't it? :(

The second and third series have better DVD coverage but almost the whole thing is rental only.  A friend of mine has been collecting them from secondhand sources.  They're not exactly easy to come by.

Ah thanks for the help. Let me know if your projects get anywhere. I do remember watching the first 4 movies and the TV show up to the Advanced generation (As a player of the game I remember thinking it was really stupid that Ash left all his pokes behind at that point so I stopped watching it) I may just buy the R1 DVDs for the show but the movies i'd really like to have in OAR. I'll try to find the PAL DVDs but sadly it's the first movie I'm most concerned with. I do have 1-3 and Mewtwo Returns on VHS. 

The Japanese audio and alternate cuts with subs I'd probably find interesting, but I'm not too concerned about them. I grew up watching the 4Kids dub anyway.

Also, Is the Episode Tentacool and Tentacruel on the R1 DVD sets? I know that was banned for a while.

EDIT:

I was also wondering about the OAR of Mewtwo Returns? Is it widescreen because the only English DVD is fullscreen

I was a HUGE fan of Pokemon as a kid. I mean a HUGE fan. I had the cards, the games, the toys, I went to the movies and watched the show religiously, I even went to a Pokemon musical (which was really cheesy even then). I still enjoy the video games and bust out the cards occasionally, but I haven’t viewed the anime in forever, dismissing it as uncool quite a long time ago. However, I think I’d like to see it again, just for kicks, nostalgia if you will.

However, I found out that the DVD sets suck. They are supposedly 4KIDS English only, no extras, no banned episodes, cuts everywhere and VHS Quality video. While this is how I watched them as a kid, I thought that they might get better treatment on DVD. I was wondering how the Japanese DVDs are, and if there were any preservation projects for Pokemon. I know there are probably tons of other projects much deserving…but Pokemon was a cultural icon, and I think versions with Japanese video and choice of English or Japanese with subtitles would be nice 😄. I was even wondering about the movies. particularly the first 2 or 3. I think they were pan and scanned for the English DVD releases which is annoying. Thanks if any of you can help (why am I asking this on a star wars board again?)

bkev said:

 

Darth Venal said:

 

Great, let's flood Jedi with lots of completely distracting lens flares! Even when there aren't any lights off camera to cause them.

AWESOME!

He was poking fun at JJ Abrams. xP

 

You guys are going to shoot me for this but I legitimately LOVE how it looks with the lense flares....okay shoot...

EyeShotFirst said:

The biggest problem with making a prequel is when the casting director goes for who looks the most like the character in the original. They don't care at all as long as they look enough like the character. In the beginning of the movie Braveheart there was a young actor playing William Wallace. He didn't look at all like Mel Gibson but he practiced his mannerisms and got them down perfect so the seams met in a way that made the film seamless. Then you have a movie like Star Trek with that horrible Chris Pine. He didn't even bother to try to be William Shatner. He had the look fairly close but really didn't capture the essence of William Shatner's performance (it isn't that hard LOL). 

Most people would prefer seeing somebody who looks like the original character, but a true fan of any original film would like to see somebody who convinces them that they are the same character without looking extremely close to the original.

 

My biggest problem with the dialogue in the prequels is they say some of the same shit they do in the originals. Amidala talking about "discussing this in a committee" a classic Han line. All the damn aliens call people Bantha Fodder.

And why does every sith say "Search your feelings and you will know it to be true." Darth Vader said it first in ESB then after that everybody says it.

It was like George Lucas had a hat full of lines. He pulls one out every time a character says something and sticks it in the script.

I have to 100% disagree with you on Chris Pine. I thought his performance was excellent. It think it's important to note that he was trying to be a young Kirk, not Shatner. I think he captured the essence of the character, just not the actor, which is good because Shatner's performance is cheesy by today's standards. remember that this Kirk doesn't quite grow up into Shatner anyway, he lives a different life. I believe Pine tried some Shatnerisms and inflections but decided they didn't work.