DuracellEnergizer

imperialscum said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

imperialscum said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

This analogy doesn't work because the Sith of the Sith Empire and the Sith of TOR are both interstellar civilizations with FTL travel and advanced energy weapons.

The analogy is completely valid. The level is different but the variation is the same.

Going off the current EU timeline, almost three thousand years passed between the end of the Hundred-Year Darkness and the Great Hyperspace War. In all that time, there was no significant change in regards to Sith technology or aesthetics. Yet I'm supposed to believe that only a thousand years, give-or-take, after the Great Hyperspace War, every single aspect about their culture undergoes a radical overhaul, turning them from sword-and-sorcery type magicians and warriors into ultra high-tech space age marauders.

I'm not buying it.

Take a look at Africa. Just several decades ago most of them were naked, living in tribes and fought with spears. Now they are fighting each other (in conflicts you are not even aware of) with modern assault rifles, rocket launchers and drinking coca cola.

The Africans never ruled an interstellar empire, did they?

DuracellEnergizer said:

Opinion.

Yeah, it's an opinion. How about you provide an argument showing how it's at all wrong or inaccurate?

Opinion is an opinion... it can't be wrong. It is like you telling me you like apples and then someone would try to argue you are wrong.

Wow. I totally didn't realize that before now. *sarcasm*

imperialscum said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

This analogy doesn't work because the Sith of the Sith Empire and the Sith of TOR are both interstellar civilizations with FTL travel and advanced energy weapons.

The analogy is completely valid. The level is different but the variation is the same.

Going off the current EU timeline, almost three thousand years passed between the end of the Hundred-Year Darkness and the Great Hyperspace War. In all that time, there was no significant change in regards to Sith technology or aesthetics. Yet I'm supposed to believe that only a thousand years, give-or-take, after the Great Hyperspace War, every single aspect about their culture undergoes a radical overhaul, turning them from sword-and-sorcery type magicians and warriors into ultra high-tech space age marauders.

I'm not buying it.

 

DuracellEnergizer said:

I'm basing my "assumption" that Palpatine's appearance was the result of dark side corruption on Dark Empire, which overtly established that Palpatine's appearance was the result of dark side corruption.

Dark Empire is just another EU source... and a very bad one imo. That is no better than basing stuff on PT.

We're already discussing EU matters, so Dark Empire -- however bad you may think it is -- is as valid a source as any in regards to a discussion on EU matters.

 

DuracellEnergizer said:

Making Anakin a snivelling whiny unlikeable jerk tarnishes and undermines the character as he was in the OT. Making the original Sith a race doesn't tarnish or undermine the non-biological Sith.

Opinion.

Yeah, it's an opinion. How about you provide an argument showing how it's at all wrong or inaccurate?

 

DuracellEnergizer said:

Sith who aren't sociopathic social Darwinist assholes.

Sith has been that since OT... Vader chocking imperial failures, Emperor replacing Vader with a younger guy.

And all Jedi wear brown desert hermit robes, have funny speech patterns, and make their apprentices give them piggy-back rides.

I guess Lucas is just so in love with those old serials that he can't help but emulate them in every way -- old-fashioned racist warts and all.

Looking back, I would have gotten rid of the whole "a Jedi's body fades away after he dies" thing. After all, once you're dead, what's the point of taking your body along? You become a spirit regardless.

imperialscum said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

imperialscum said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

There are two ways to deal with TOTJ. First, ignore it for the most part like KOTOR did. Second, consider it and make some evolution from it, like SWTOR did.

You're ignoring a third option -- running with what TOTJ set up.

No I am not ignoring it. It is basically the second option without any evolution/development, which is hands down stupid and unacceptable. Thousand years ago in Europe people wore armour and fought with swords... in your version, soldiers in WW2 should wore armour and fought with swords as well.

 I fail to see how this has anything to do with Sith aesthetics/characterization.

Well just extend my example... compare today's aesthetics (clothes, buildings, art, cities, transportations, etc) and way of living to medieval aesthetics and way of living.

This analogy doesn't work because the Sith of the Sith Empire and the Sith of TOR are both interstellar civilizations with FTL travel and advanced energy weapons.

As for his pale skin being an effect of Dark Side... that is how I see it too. However that is only our assumption since it is never explained. It the same as assuming emperor in OT was a Sith. Yet you claim the first to be an indisputable fact and the second as something completely false. And this is just one of many cases where you do that. That kind of attitude is quite arrogant and childish if I may say so.

I'm basing my "assumption" that Palpatine's appearance was the result of dark side corruption on Dark Empire, which overtly established that Palpatine's appearance was the result of dark side corruption. 

 

DuracellEnergizer said:

Nothing about what little was revealed about the Sith prior to TOTJ precludes the possibility that the Sith started out as a species/culture before evolving into a religion.

Nothing prior to PT precludes the possibility that Vader was actually a snivelling whiny unlikeable jerk before he turned into one the most awesome characters ever. Do you finally get my point? Just because the concepts are not fully explored it doesn't mean one can crap over them.

(Btw personally I like Sith starting out as a red-skinned species... I am just being objective here)

Making Anakin a snivelling whiny unlikeable jerk tarnishes and undermines the character as he was in the OT. Making the original Sith a race doesn't tarnish or undermine the non-biological Sith.

 

DuracellEnergizer said:

Why should I? Ever since TPM was released, the Sith have become shallow, one-dimensional, interchangeable clowns who are evil for the sake of being evil, and I for one am sick and tired of see them overrun each and every era and aspect of the EU.

A nice generalisation over much of the stuff you aren't even aware of.

I'm not going to devote time and effort into pouring over every modern EU story in search of Sith who aren't sociopathic social Darwinist assholes. There's better things to do -- better EU to explore -- with my time.

All these Fos co-existing in one timeline ... something's bound to implode sooner or later.

I named one of my black cats "Ligeia" after watching The Tomb of Ligeia.

As far as I'm concerned, Star Trek jumped a small shark when the writers decided to explain -- in an incredibly stupid, pseudoscientific way -- why so many aliens in the galaxy look just like humans with goofy wrinkles on their foreheads.

Temnye vody AKA Dark Waters AKA Dead Waters (1993)

Catholicism and Lovecraftian horror are a very interesting combination. Suffice it to say, I liked the movie.

7/10

El buque maldito AKA The Ghost Galleon (1974)

I don't know if it's just bad dubbing, but the acting and dialogue were both laughably awful. The scenes with the zombie Templars oh so slowly chasing after their victims were also atrociously hilarious.

On the upside, the film had plenty of atmosphere.

6/10

INT. NYAX/OBI-WAN, ANAKIN, & SIRI'S CELL

Obi-Wan sits against the far wall of the cell away from Anakin and Siri, watching them as they sleep. A few days have passed since his experience in the torture chamber, and he is visibly worse for the wear.

With a yawn, Siri rises from her sleep. Sitting up, she notices Obi-Wan staring.

SIRI: Good morning, Obi-Wan.

OBI-WAN: Morning, Siri.

SIRI: (cocks an eyebrow) That's the most you've said in the past three days. I'm glad to see you coming around.

OBI-WAN: (absentminded) Coming around? I suppose I am.

With that, their brief conversation comes to an end; as Ben continues to stare at Anakin, Siri moves over to the corner of the room which serves as the cell's lavatory to relieve herself of last night's meagre meal.

Minutes pass, and finally Anakin awakens.

OBI-WAN: Anakin ...

ANAKIN: (looks up at Ben) Obi-Wan?

OBI-WAN: Come here.

Getting up, Nik walks over to Ben and crouches down beside the Jedi.

ANAKIN: What is it? Are you okay?

OBI-WAN: I'm alright, Anakin. Just listen to what I have to say.

ANAKIN: Okay. What is it you have to say?

OBI-WAN: You remember what I told you about the Force?

ANAKIN: Yeah. You said it's the "soul of the universe", that it binds everything in the universe together and gives those who can touch it amazing powers.

OBI-WAN: That wasn't the full story. (beat) My master taught me that the Force has two main sides -- a light side and a dark side. The light side is the positive side of the Force -- in harmony with love and life and peace. The dark side, on the other hand, is the negative side of the Force -- chaotic and in tune with fear, hatred, and death. (beat) My master also taught me that while the dark side is easier to follow than the light, it is not stronger.

ANAKIN: I'm following you.

OBI-WAN: After Qui-Gon died, I started to fear that Yoda might be wrong -- that the dark side actually is stronger than the light. (beat) I'm still afraid the dark side's stronger.

ANAKIN: There's an "and" or "but" somewhere in all this, I hope?

OBI-WAN: (cont'd) But I realized that I don't have to lie down and let the darkness roll over me. I can fight it -- even if I can't win, I can fight. (beat) I'm going to fight the dark side, Anakin, and I'm going to help you fight it, too.

ANAKIN: What do you mean?

OBI-WAN: Vizsla is going to do whatever it takes to twist you over to his way of thinking. I'm not going to let that happen. (beat) I'm going to use whatever remaining time we have on this ship together to prepare you for his assaults -- I'm going to teach you how to use the light side of the Force.

When did this rivalry between Frink and Fo 0/1/etc. begin, anyway? This current stream of bickering between the two only seems to have begun a few months ago.

imperialscum said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

There are two ways to deal with TOTJ. First, ignore it for the most part like KOTOR did. Second, consider it and make some evolution from it, like SWTOR did.

You're ignoring a third option -- running with what TOTJ set up.

No I am not ignoring it. It is basically the second option without any evolution/development, which is hands down stupid and unacceptable. Thousand years ago in Europe people wore armour and fought with swords... in your version, soldiers in WW2 should wore armour and fought with swords as well.

 I fail to see how this has anything to do with Sith aesthetics/characterization.

DuracellEnergizer said:

I also hate the corpse-white skin, the glowing yellow/orange/red eyes, and the general Goth-like attire.

Here is one of them:

 

That's a single character, who was never identified as a Sith prior to the release of TPM, whose body was ravaged from a lifetime spent in uncommonly extreme devotion to the dark side.

 

DuracellEnergizer said:

Face facts -- prior to TOTJ, "Sith" was an undefined, nebulous concept; Tom Veitch was the one to give the Sith a distinct culture and history.

Just because the name didn't appear on-screen it doesn't mean the concept wasn't there. Prior to TOTJ, if we take Vader as a reference, we were safe to assume Sith was sort of a dark-side centred religion (an obvious counterpart to Jedi) rather than species/culture.

Nothing about what little was revealed about the Sith prior to TOTJ precludes the possibility that the Sith started out as a species/culture before evolving into a religion.

 

DuracellEnergizer said:

Perhaps Veitch and co. expected the readers to use a little imagination and deductive reasoning to fill in the gaps -- something you apparently are incapable of.

I am capable and so were the developers of SWTOR. It is just you who is unwilling to go along with anything reasonable. You insist on using the TOTJ Sith (which were almost extinct) 1000 years later without any evolution/development.

Why should I? Ever since TPM was released, the Sith have become shallow, one-dimensional, interchangeable clowns who are evil for the sake of being evil, and I for one am sick and tired of see them overrun each and every era and aspect of the EU.

 

DuracellEnergizer said:

Sure, go ahead. Just don't attempt to link these Sith to the Sith that preceeded them.

How convenient... in one instance you accused me of lack of imagination in connecting the dots and filling the gaps and in the next instance you forbid any kind of linking at all.

When it comes down to stuff I utterly loathe, yeah, it does. If I had been in control of the EU back when TPM was released, I would have immediately made the PT Sith a complete and seperate organization from the Sith Empire and Brotherhood of the Sith, keeping the wheat completely seperate from the chaff.

SilverWook said:

darklordoftech said:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rish_Loo

Evil Gungans are always funny.

 

Please tell me that's not a bone in his nose.

 Maybe he's an Anzati-Gungan hybrid. ;-)

imperialscum said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I don't hate human Sith. I hate it when a writer decides to use the Sith Empire in their story without sticking to how the Sith of the Sith Empire were originally depicted.

Please stop referring TOTJ Sith as "original Sith". Like I said, Sith were originally depicted in OT and are very different from what TOTJ turned them into much later.

Please read more carefully. I was referring to the Sith of the Sith Empire -- AKA the Sith who show up in The Golden Age of the Sith and Fall of the Sith Empire -- not the Sith in general.

There are two ways to deal with TOTJ. First, ignore it for the most part like KOTOR did. Second, consider it and make some evolution from it, like SWTOR did.

You're ignoring a third option -- running with what TOTJ set up.

So you are bothered by the black tattoos. Very few human Sith In SWTOR have any kind of tattoos (and if they do they have red tattoos). Probably you just saw some Zabrak Sith and made the wrong generalisation. Zabrak tattoos don't have anything to do with Sith anyway. They are part of their culture.

I don't just hate the black tattoos. I also hate the corpse-white skin, the glowing yellow/orange/red eyes, and the general Goth-like attire.

Btw I don't know the exact definitions of your terms "KISS reject" and "generic" but I would very much like to learn them.

A "KISS reject" is any character who looks like this

"Generic" refers to any Sith who fits this or any similar mold.

I really don't care how TOTJ justifies the meddling with the original Sith concept (i.e. OT). However painful this might be to you, PT Sith are by a lightyear closer to the original OT Sith.

What was the "original Sith concept", BTW? The term doesn't even show up in the OT. Are you referring to the earlier rough drafts? Well, seeing as the Sith change shape and form between them, they're useless as a guide to the universe of the films themselves.

Face facts -- prior to TOTJ, "Sith" was an undefined, nebulous concept; Tom Veitch was the one to give the Sith a distinct culture and history.

I wonder why did TOTJ even had to call them Sith. Why not just name them something of its own since it would work just as well. Calling them Sith was bound to cause friction and trouble.

Perhaps Veitch and co. expected the readers to use a little imagination and deductive reasoning to fill in the gaps -- something you apparently are incapable of.

So if you follow your own principles, you wouldn't mind if a similar EU source made yet another version of Sith (just like TOTJ did) about 2,500 years before OT and 2,500 years after TOTJ. After all, if we gave TOTJ the right to do that why not to someone else, right? And since we don't want them to be "generic", they would be yet another aliens, this time green skinned four legged creatures wielding blasters (we wish to avoid red lightsabres, actually lightsabres altogether).

Sure, go ahead. Just don't attempt to link these Sith to the Sith that preceeded them.

TV's Frink said:

Jetrell Fo 1 said:

Since there is NO Fo1, Fo2, OR Fo3 you may direct your insults at me, thank you.

But you're Fo 1.

 No, he's Fo 0 -- or, alternatively -- F0.

^You're in this thread, too. =P

It's a line from the Cranberries song "Electric Blue", one of my favourite songs from the band. I chose it because I feel it reflects my current theological state very well.

imperialscum said:

You accept KOTOR which just throws in a few "generic KISS rejects" that mysteriously (i.e. completely unexplained by the game) call themselves Sith and exclusively use red lightsabres.

In my canon, Revan and Malak aren't Darths, aren't Sith, and don't weild red lightsabers.

But on the other hand, you don't accept SWTOR which brings back Sith (not just humans, but also redskin ones) that use red lightsabres (there are quite a few Sith in TOR who don't use red lightsabre btw).

It doesn't matter if biological Sith make an appearance if they're portrayed as KISS rejects with lightsabers instead of sword-and-sorcery type warriors with alchemically forged swords.

And FYI, I'm aware that a few Sith in TOR use other lightsaber colours beyond red. Red still remains the primary colour they use.

Judging from your posts, you seem to hate human Sith.

I don't hate human Sith. I hate it when a writer decides to use the Sith Empire in their story without sticking to how the Sith of the Sith Empire were originally depicted.

Assumingly because you like TOTJ, which mysteriously made Sith redskin species (it has been a while since I read it but I am pretty sure they offer no explanation).

Following the Great Hyperspace War, the Sith Empire crumbled and the Sith race eventually became extinct. Their lore and artifacts survived, however, and found their ways into the hands of Dark Jedi like Freedon Nadd, who then passed their knowledge down to their descendants and apprentices, keeping the Sith legacy alive.

Not only can this information be inferred from what is revealed in the TOTJ comics, but it is concretely established in the Tales from the Jedi Companion.

If we go back to the point where the concept of Sith was actually created, namely OT. Vader was not a redskin alien. He was a human and in fact unmasked he looked pretty much like what you would refer to as "generic KISS reject".

Unmasked Vader looks like a sad, damaged old man, not a KISS reject, as he doesn't have a bunch of stupid black tattoos criss-crossing his face.

So why didn't you protest when TOTJ made Sith into redskin aliens and contradicted what we see in OT? Why did you just accept the crap that completely contradicted to what you knew from OT, and why did you begin to hate everything that actually goes in parallel with OT?

Because TOTJ clearly established a difference between the Sith of the Sith Empire and the later Sith like Vader and never tried to confuse the two. TOR -- like almost all current stories about the Sith -- justs sticks generic PT-inspired Sith into any nook and cranny it can find, context or original intent of whatever works it may be going off of be damned.

SWTOR, if anything, just tried to salvage the mess TOTJ made and connect the dots the best it could.

TOTJ made no mess. If anything, it left some historical blanks to fill -- blanks that probably would have been filled if the bullshit prequels hadn't come out and taken over the comics.

I'm so very glad I've never watched Voyager or Enterprise.

imperialscum said:

I am still wondering though... I have a hunch that you and darklordoftech haven't even played KOTOR and SWTOR (at least not through it). It seems like you are hating something you don't exactly know much about.

No, I haven't played either game, and don't have much wish to -- I'm more-or-less a retro gamer, so I prefer to stick with older games, and I don't think I'd have the patience to get through an RPG-style game, anyway.

As for your main argument, I don't hate KOTOR; I even accept certain tidbits introduced in the game -- the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War, in particular -- as canon within my personal SW Universe. I'm just not fond of the way the Sith are portrayed in the video game.

TOR, on the other hand, I do hate. I'm sick to death of the nth amount of Sith Wars that are cluttering up the EU, and this Sith War in particular pisses me off, as it purports to bring back the original Sith Empire but only features more generic KISS rejects with red lightsabers. Playing the game wouldn't change my opinion of it, since I find the concept and the plot themselves rotten to the core.

Bingowings said:

If you have it and can see a blue or orange swirly vortex thing just throw it in and then throw some salt at the vortex to collapse it.

 Quit throwing your garbage into our dimension.

"Officially" whatever happens to be the newest release of the films at the time are canon; the OOT, SE '97, SE '04, and the theatrical versions of most of the prequels are considered "rough drafts" and "non-canon".

Hopefully Disney will relax this bullshit so that any version of the films can be considered canon.

Just a heads up: the last entry in the script has been be heavily rewritten; the bit with Siri in the sparring chamber has been replaced with a somewhat similar scene dealing with a Dark Jedi captive in the sparring chamber instead.

timdiggerm said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

imperialscum said:

when it comes to reproducing creatures, puppet based SFX just suck compared to CGI. CGI can reproduce more natural behaviour and motion of a creature. In the end they both look fake.

I'll take the less-than-fluid movements of puppets over the plastic surfaces and weightlessness of CGI any day.

What if sometimes one is better, and sometimes the other is better?

 Then exceptions can be made.

I just don't see the reason in investing great amount of time, effort and money in making a stop-motion SFX with a puppet. Especially when it usually look very unnatural. The way to solve this is either putting a guy into a costume or using CGI.

You do realize that in this day and age, the herky-jerkiness of stop-motion can be corrected, don't you?

How? With...computers?!

Yes, with computers. Not that I mind, since it's not computer effects I'm against, but the unnecessary overuse of computer effects.

I refuse to use the prequel pronunciations for "Coruscant" and "Palpatine"; it's Corus-kant and Palpa-tyne all the way for me.