Darth Venal

Who are those guys?

bkev said:

TV's Frink said:

Isn't this the point where Rob comes in and tells us how gay this thread has become?

Wait... aren't you a semi-newbie? How do you know of Rob?

 Maybe he's not really new?

doubleofive said:

Ripplin said:

Once upon a time, I used to look forward to reading this thread...

I think I've added one thing to the list in the last couple weeks.  And I'm not sure it was even serious (having grandstands at the Pit of Carkoon/moving the Sarlacc to the old Mos Espa Speedway).

Haha, it was indeed a serious suggestion. Not moving the Sarlacc, the first idea. I don't see why such executions wouldn't be public on a planet like Tatooine.

JasonN said:

Darth Venal said:

That's a really dumb answer, mate...

... Clearly you're the one who's never read up on how to write a script, otherwise your answer wouldn't have been so stupid.

I love it when "know-it-all" people agrue with others:
If they can't tear down another person's viewpoint as being inferior, then they'll just call you a dumbass. :P

The dumb answer I was referring to was his attempt at belittling me with his Screenwriting for Dummies joke, not actually calling him dumb. Dumbass. Funny how you didn't notice that. And regardless of me stooping to that level, which I'm not sure I did, doesn't make what he was saying any more correct or mine any less so.

If you actually read what I said, in neither of those sentences do I call him dumb. I said his answer was dumb, and it was. There's a difference. A smart person would notice. ;-)

doubleofive said:

Darth Venal said:

TMBTM said:

Darth Venal said:

That highlights the problem with TPM; it's structured around the wrong character - Padme. The blockade of Naboo should just be a MacGuffin to get the events in motion and lead to them meeting Anakin, which it does, but it becomes the actual focus of the story and the goal of the characters. Anakin is secondary, when he should be the focus. Instead we get an entire movie wasted on his introduction, a fatal flaw.

I don't always agree with DV, but THIS is so true.

I even think this is THE biggest problem with TPM. The MacGuffin is usualy the thing the characters care about but the audience not. In TPM we, the audience, are suppose to care about taxation and blocus of Naboo while we just want to know what  the characters feel and think. We only have "I'm cold" and "I sens much fear in you" (notice how Yoda needs to explain how Anakin is feeling. It's not a good thing when you need to tell the audience what you could have shown. An now I'm waiting for the Ric Olié post.)

I always agree with DV, and agree that is true. And you're right, TMBTM, being told what should be shown through character action is really very poor.

You would. :-P

 Wait, did I reply to myself? Must be a Ghost in my machine. ;-)

TMBTM said:

Darth Venal said:

That highlights the problem with TPM; it's structured around the wrong character - Padme. The blockade of Naboo should just be a MacGuffin to get the events in motion and lead to them meeting Anakin, which it does, but it becomes the actual focus of the story and the goal of the characters. Anakin is secondary, when he should be the focus. Instead we get an entire movie wasted on his introduction, a fatal flaw.

I don't always agree with DV, but THIS is so true.

I even think this is THE biggest problem with TPM. The MacGuffin is usualy the thing the characters care about but the audience not. In TPM we, the audience, are suppose to care about taxation and blocus of Naboo while we just want to know what  the characters feel and think. We only have "I'm cold" and "I sens much fear in you" (notice how Yoda needs to explain how Anakin is feeling. It's not a good thing when you need to tell the audience what you could have shown. An now I'm waiting for the Ric Olié post.)

I always agree with DV, and agree that is true. And you're right, TMBTM, being told what should be shown through character action is really very poor.

TV's Frink said:

Darth Venal said:

That's a really dumb answer, mate.

Darth Venal said:

Clearly you're the one who's never read up on how to write a script, otherwise your answer wouldn't have been so stupid.

DV, I generally find myself agreeing with your points.  It's clear you know what you're talking about.  But I find the constant insults a bit tiring.  Just saying.

 No that's cool. I have a very short fuse in some situations, is all. Either that and/or I'm overworked and don't realise I'm sounding so "short". Although, that reponse was in response to an insult directed at me. It works both ways.

RoccondilRinon said:

1. What's wrong with having a four-act structure?

2. Acts are subdivided into scenes. I've never yet seen a film where an act break comes in the middle of a scene. Surely Screenwriting for Dummies 101 taught you that much?

That's a really dumb answer, mate. You've never yet seen a film where an act break comes in the middle of a scene? Possibly because you don't see act breaks. An act break is a transitional point. It is the scene itself within which the change comes. Ergo, the transition to Act III in Jedi comes within "Luke and Leia" when Luke accepts that he has to face Vader. It's about the meaning, not the technicality of a scene break.

Clearly you're the one who's never read up on how to write a script, otherwise your answer wouldn't have been so stupid.

Oh, and what's wrong with a four-act structure? Well, that depends on the medium you're writing for, and the story you're intending to tell. There are very few screenwriters who vary much from the industry norms, and there are very, very well established reasons for the three-act structure being what it is.

RoccondilRinon said:

It's debatable, really. The films weren't explicitly planned so that act one ends here or there. An act break can come at any change in the story, and I think it's more a matter of the feel of the film than Significant Character Decisions.

Well, our opinions are debateable, the three-act structure isn't. If TPM does have four acts, then that's yet another reason it fails.

If act two of ROTJ ends with Luke handing himself over, act three begins with the Rebel fleet. Your point being?

My point being exactly what I said. Clearly I was referring to Luke's decision to face Vader and the Emperor. Act changes have absolutely nothing to do with a scene break, and everything to do with the actions/motivations of the characters. Go ahead and ask any working screenwriter, and then discuss it. I don't mean that to sound conceited, arrogant or whatever, but that's screenwriting. Act II and Act III transition at exactly the same point, not the CUT TO the next scene.

RoccondilRinon said:

TPM really has more of a four-act structure: act one ends with the escape from Naboo, act two has the podrace as its climax, act three is the Coruscant section and act four is the return to Naboo and final battle. Four acts is unusual in most media; hour-long television dramas are the only format that regularly use it. I disagree that act one of TPM is too short; a lot happens in it.

ROTS has a shortish first act, and a long second one; the most likely candidate for the end of act two is Order 66.

ESB has a clear first act; it's less clear where act two ends, but I would venture Luke's departure from Dagobah makes the most sense.

ROTJ follows the standard three acts; act one ends with the sail barge battle, and act three begins with the Rebel fleet jumping to hyperspace.

The Phantom Menace is three acts, not four. It is just badly structured. The second act begins when they meet Anakin. Act II is everything on Tatooine and back on Coruscant, Act III is the return to Naboo and battles (and the denouement is the parade). That highlights the problem with TPM; it's structured around the wrong character - Padme. The blockade of Naboo should just be a MacGuffin to get the events in motion and lead to them meeting Anakin, which it does, but it becomes the actual focus of the story and the goal of the characters. Anakin is secondary, when he should be the focus. Instead we get an entire movie wasted on his introduction, a fatal flaw. Was Star Wars wasted on Luke's introduction? Nope. Compare what we know about Anakin by the end of TPM to what we have seen of Luke by the end of ANH.

In the overall scheme of things, Obi Wan should have been the lead and Anakin the focus of Episode I, but instead Qui Gon is the lead and Padme is the focus. Qui Gon is completely superfluous, there is nothing he does that couldn't have been given to the others, and Padme is subsequently abandoned in the following movies. In Episode II the MacGuffin is protecting her from assassination, which puts all the events in motion for Obi Wan, Anakin and Padme. I'd say Act II begins with Anakin being assigned to protect Padme and them departing for Naboo. Act III begins with Anakin slaughtering the Sand People out of revenge. Much better structurally, but the execution ruins it.

In Revenge of the Sith, the beginning of Act II is Padme and Anakin when she tells him she's pregnant. The end of Act II is Anakin choosing to help Palpatine - the Padme's Ruminations scene. The tipping of his character (so horribly undermined by his immediate regret after helping kill Jules).

You're right, in Empire, the turn into Act III comes when Luke chooses to leave Dagobah and rescue his friends.

In Jedi, Act I ends as they leave Tatooine, Act II ends with Luke handing himself in to Vader. This is about Luke, not the Rebel Alliance.

It's generally accepted that Act changes come with a character decision, not the most obvious break or change in action. A reader/viewer's emotional investment is in the characters, and it is around those characters that virtually every good script is structured.

Octorox said:

Darth Venal said:

Ghost said:

Sometimes you need to break from the story a little bit to make the overall movie better to watch. 

Christ, are you joking? If there is one, single cardinal rule of film-making, it is that you never, ever break from the story. Everything else is secondary. Everything, be it some fantastic scene that you really want to keep, or a great FX sequence. If they don't contribute to the plot, they have to go. If you don't get that, don't waste time trying to do anything with movies.

Correct, one, single cardinal rule of Hollywood filmmaking. If you're talking about a 3 act narrative structure yes. If you're talking about an episodic structure, no. Ever heard of Italian neorealism? It tends to "waste time" on small everyday events that often don't have anything to do with the narrative, but allow the characters to breathe and reflect their reality, as if they were you and I. Also, when a film has a very deep message, it is usually a good idea to force some long takes to give the audience a chance to reflect on what they just saw.

You're also completely throwing experimental or non-narrative structure out of the window.

But Star Wars is classically structured, both within the first three films, and those three films as a three-act trilogy. The episodic structure you're referring to is the trilogy, and that also clearly follows the three act rule. They are very conventional, not that that is a bad thing. But the prequels...

Sorry, I'll shut up now. I believe you are in the industry and I'm a lowly first year film student so I probably don't know what I'm talking about...but yeah I would say in a Star Wars film you wouldn't want long breaks from the narrative.

I was also a film student once and it doesn't have much bearing on how much you know. Do a Masters, PhD, then you're talking. Some Bachelors students are gifted, others are not, and that carries through into work. Trust me, there are very many people in this industry that have no idea what they're doing and only got into it because they thought it would be glamourous/cool/enjoyable/blah. Seriously. (Nepotism also has a lot to answer for!)

Well, that's not exactly what you said, is it.

brash_stryker said:

Yes. Fangs a lot!

Aw that's terrible!

I think we need to raise the stakes.

Ghost said:

Sometimes you need to break from the story a little bit to make the overall movie better to watch. 

Christ, are you joking? If there is one, single cardinal rule of film-making, it is that you never, ever break from the story. Everything else is secondary. Everything, be it some fantastic scene that you really want to keep, or a great FX sequence. If they don't contribute to the plot, they have to go. If you don't get that, don't waste time trying to do anything with movies.

Do you know why people got bored with the fights and battles in the prequels? Because they wasted time showing us "pretty stuff to watch" when they should have been advancing the story. Yes, you can have duels and battles. But they should serve their function to the plot and nothing more.

shanerjedi said:

Darth Venal said:

JasonN said:

shanerjedi said:

Here's the dialogue for The Lost 20 scene I was talking about yesterday:

Obi-Wan stares at the bust of Count Dooku.

Jocasta Nu: He has a powerful face doesn't he? He was one of the most brilliant jedi I have had the privilege of knowing.

Obi-Wan: I never understood why he quit. Only twenty jedi have ever left the order.

Jocasta Nu: The Lost 20. Count Dooku was the most recent and the most painful. No one likes to talk about it. His leaving was a great loss to the order.

Obi-Wan: What happened?

Jocasta Nu: Well, Count Dooku was always a bit out of step with the decisions of the council. Much like your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn.

Obi-Wan: really?

Jocasta Nu: Oh yes. They were alike in many ways. Very individual thinkers and idealists. he was always striving to become a more powerful jedi. he wanted to be the best. With a lightsaber, in the old style of fencing, he had no match. His knowledge of the force was....unique. In the end, I think he left because he lost faith in the republic. He believed that politics were corrupt, and he felt the jedi betrayed themselves by serving the politicians. He always had very high expectations of government. He disappeared for nine or ten years, then just showed up recently as the head of the separatist movement.

Obi-Wan: It's very interesting. I'm not sure I completely understand.

Jocasta Nu: Well I'm sure you didn't call me over here for a history lesson. Are you having a problem, Master Kenobi?

 

I bold that last line because that's in the released cut at the start of the archives scene. But they shot the whole scene entirely, including all the dialogue I wrote. Now, this is a perfect setup for a "rogue" Dooku.

Yes, we need more of Ewan McGregor's stiffly delivered exposition and more of the slightly excited stuff from the old bird who used to be in Neighbours.

I jest, but as much as this would support any efforts to "develop" Dooku's character, I can't help hearing more of that clunky exposition and stilted acting.

God, I would sooooo kill to have that footage to add to my Twilight edit...

What the hell has this scene got to do with vampires?

ROTFLMAO!

Venal it's a fan edit called Twilight of the Old Republic. Hahaha! That was funny.

Hey, he used to be "THE COUNT" in the old Hammer films so this would be a tie in!!!!! It's would be a tie in to vampire movies!!! His appearance in Twilight would be for vampire continuity for all vampire movies!!!! Put him in the Twilight movie!

 

Okay, I'm full of shit. :P

 Thank god somebody made the connection! I was losing hope. Shanerjedi, I knew I could count on you.

doubleofive said:

Darth Lars said:

Ghost said:

Does anyone think that Vader's entrance in the Hoth battle is weak?  He comes out of nowhere.

I agree to a bit. I think this was discussed very briefly a long time ago in this thread, or in the "wish list" thread. One suggestion, as I remember it was that there would be a shot where the AT-ATs were followed by a landing shuttle or star destroyer emerging from the cloudy sky. (or is it just in my head?)

We did discuss it on one of the threads, but any addition would destroy the pacing and is really unnecessary, much like the "how did Vader get back to his Star Destroyer, show us his ship landing George!" scene in the SE.

What he said. Ibid.

Why the hell should Vader need an "entrance" in that scene? He's already taking part in the sequence of events, it's not like he's a surprise appearance. Sheesh, who comes up with these ideas?

JasonN said:

shanerjedi said:

Here's the dialogue for The Lost 20 scene I was talking about yesterday:

Obi-Wan stares at the bust of Count Dooku.

Jocasta Nu: He has a powerful face doesn't he? He was one of the most brilliant jedi I have had the privilege of knowing.

Obi-Wan: I never understood why he quit. Only twenty jedi have ever left the order.

Jocasta Nu: The Lost 20. Count Dooku was the most recent and the most painful. No one likes to talk about it. His leaving was a great loss to the order.

Obi-Wan: What happened?

Jocasta Nu: Well, Count Dooku was always a bit out of step with the decisions of the council. Much like your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn.

Obi-Wan: really?

Jocasta Nu: Oh yes. They were alike in many ways. Very individual thinkers and idealists. he was always striving to become a more powerful jedi. he wanted to be the best. With a lightsaber, in the old style of fencing, he had no match. His knowledge of the force was....unique. In the end, I think he left because he lost faith in the republic. He believed that politics were corrupt, and he felt the jedi betrayed themselves by serving the politicians. He always had very high expectations of government. He disappeared for nine or ten years, then just showed up recently as the head of the separatist movement.

Obi-Wan: It's very interesting. I'm not sure I completely understand.

Jocasta Nu: Well I'm sure you didn't call me over here for a history lesson. Are you having a problem, Master Kenobi?

 

I bold that last line because that's in the released cut at the start of the archives scene. But they shot the whole scene entirely, including all the dialogue I wrote. Now, this is a perfect setup for a "rogue" Dooku.

Yes, we need more of Ewan McGregor's stiffly delivered exposition and more of the slightly excited stuff from the old bird who used to be in Neighbours.

I jest, but as much as this would support any efforts to "develop" Dooku's character, I can't help hearing more of that clunky exposition and stilted acting.

God, I would sooooo kill to have that footage to add to my Twilight edit...

What the hell has this scene got to do with vampires?

God, more clunking exposition. Might as well just stick it in the crawl.

Ziz said:

Agreed.  That was the whole idea, the Empire is cold and lifeless.  You're starting to discover how color affects mood and perception.

An image doesn't have to be cold and lifeless to portray coldness and lifelessness. The same way a scene doesn't have to be boring to portray boredom.

I personally don't mind the total desaturation so much, but I can understand why some do.

DuTwan said:

fishmanlee said:

something i did awhile back that was intended as a joke video but has boba escaping from the sail barge battle (if one were to go that direction): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUYIfUD-u04

 OMG. I really dont mean that in a nice way either, that wasnt even a constructive scene, i totally dont mind seeing you reuse scenes to show what Boba can do, but in that scene one minute he is one side then flies over shots and luke, then wraps him up, hits the deck, then back up, then hits the deck, gets up, gets hit by Han, flies across the other side, hits the deck, stays there for like 3 minutes, gets up, goes to fire at look again. Then he flies off to his Slave 1 gets on it then sail barge explodes! Three questions i must ask you, what the hell is Boba fett playing at? Why would the slave 1 be randomly near by and how old are you?.

sorry if i sound like im putting you down.

Funny.

Ric Olie said:

Ghost said:

I wish there was a way to change the story around and make it more epic.  Not just on a Sail Barge.

 Your right, but it could be alot better.

I found this hilarious.  I would never quote myself.  Or agree with myself.

 I was hoping he might have then replied again to correct his own spelling.

Bingowings said:

It is a bit of an odd way to bump your own ideas but who I am I to talk I used to deliberately wear odd socks in the eighties?

Adding a few new skiffs and maybe a second smaller barge would make the party seem more like a decadent joyride (the palace seems to hold a lot of people some of which may not be important enough to travel with Jabba or might want to show off their own ships). Having more people there could crank up the threat when Luke turns on the Jedi charm.

Though as always it would be a lot of work integrating it into the existing elements in a convincing way.

 Regarding the hordes of others that might want to attend, I thought of actually adding a spectator stand, like from the Mos Espa arena. After all, these are public executions and Tatooine isn't the most progressive planet on that front. I'd love to see a crowd cheering on the executions, and then even Luke and co when the tide turns.

Davnes007 said:

When Tarkin says that the Emperor has dissolved the senate, it brings to mind the opening scene of Star Trek: Nemesis...where the Romulan senate gets "dissolved" (in a manner of speaking).

 Hehe I remember that being joked about back when Nemesis came out. That film had some great stuff in it,  a pity it plods so much.

Ghost said:

I wish there was a way to change the story around and make it more epic.  Not just on a Sail Barge.

 Your right, but it could be alot better.

 Why are you replying to your own post as if it were someone else?

Ithilgore said:

Ghost said:

With some editing, would it be possible to show the Clone War ground battles to start ROTS?   GL considered the idea, but I don't know why he didn't do it. 

Presumably because we already saw a ground battle at the end of AOTC, and he wanted a space battle isntead, to be less repetitive (not that he's exactly adverse to that).

If we didn't have the space battle at the start of Episode III, there wouldn't be one in the final movie. There's already an excess of ground battle scenes later on, the last thing it needs is more.