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Letterboxed Widescreen vs. Anamorphic Widescreen Discussion — Page 5

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Karyudo,

thanks for your long and detailed answers to my questions (and for sharing my joke). One thing I still don't get: if regions are independent of video standards, and region 2 includes both PAL and NTSC areas, what resolution are region 2 DVDs at?

True, if the following two things are also true:

1) The PAL telecine session is as good as or better than the NTSC session; and
2) A PAL LD player exists that is as good as or better than the best available NTSC one.

I can tell you from direct experience that it is unclear that (1) is true, and that (2) is (unfortunately) almost certainly not true. We're trying, though...


1) Does this have anything to do with the cropping issue of the PAL LDs vs NTSC LDs as seen at the end of the screenshots feedback thread?
2) I take it from this that the X0 and X9 players are NTSC only?
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Originally posted by: THX
thanks for [...] sharing my joke. I live to share jokes, so the pleasure was all mine!

One thing I still don't get: if regions are independent of video standards, and region 2 includes both PAL and NTSC areas, what resolution are region 2 DVDs at? You've pretty much answered your own question, haven't you?
(1) regions are independent of standards; and
(2) R2 has both standards; and
(3) PAL is 720 x 576 and NTSC is 720 x 480.

Therefore it follows that the resolution of any region can be any of the available video standards. So R2 discs can be (at least?) either of PAL, at 720 x 576, or NTSC, at 720 x 480.

In practical terms, though, it's pretty dumb to release an R2 NTSC DVD in Europe, and even dumber to release an R2 PAL DVD in Japan.

Region coding is as independent of video standard as the language of the source material is: chances are good that if the language is French, it's PAL -- but only because most French people live in France, where PAL is the video system. That doesn't stop Quebec from having French-language NTSC DVDs, though.

1) Does this have anything to do with the cropping issue of the PAL LDs vs NTSC LDs as seen at the end of the screenshots feedback thread?
Not in my mind. At least some Star Wars LDs are not actually 2.35:1; they're 2.20:1. And the film all of these things originates from is probably more like 1.2:1 or 1.3:1 (anamorphic), with a certain amount of 'extra' space for cropping/matting. So to my mind, the exact cropping is a bit irrelevant; it's the quality of the actual image (sharpness, contrast, saturation, dust and video dropouts, etc.) that's important.

2) I take it from this that the X0 and X9 players are NTSC only?
That's correct. Those players were created and sold only in the Japanese market, which is highly NTSC-only. There may be PAL players out there that can come reasonably close, but the current best choices (the Pioneer CLD-D925 and CLD-2950) aren't in the X0/X9 league.

Hey, these are good questions (and answers, if I do say so myself)! I may have to put them up on a bit of a FAQ site someplace...


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At least some Star Wars LDs are not actually 2.35:1; they're 2.20:1. And the film all of these things originates from is probably more like 1.2:1 or 1.3:1 (anamorphic), with a certain amount of 'extra' space for cropping/matting


I find this very interesting. Do you know which releases correspond to which aspect ratio, and whether any of the LD or VHS releases contain the original theatre cropping?

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“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Originally posted by: Trooperman
Do you know which releases correspond to which aspect ratio
Not really. If you check IMDb, I think they'll all say 2.35:1, because that was the OAR of the movie, but if you do the math on a capture, it isn't always right.

... and whether any of the LD or VHS releases contain the original theatre cropping?
Part of my point is that "original theatrical cropping" is a bit nebulous. It can (and does) vary a bit from theatre to theatre. When a movie is transferred to video (telecined or scanned), there's always a little operator preference involved in the exact framing. Unless it's completely botched (like some of the early Back to the Future DVDs, or in the case of the 'incredible shrinking aspect ratio' of some earlier Star Wars releases), you really can't complain. Film is film, and you always lose just a bit when you project or print it.

In the case of the differences in framing between some PAL and NTSC transfers of Star Wars films, I think it really doesn't matter much which framing is used. They're both faithful to the original theatrical presentation.

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Karyudo, be nice, I have the "Incredible Shrinking" aspect ratio version of the LDs.
The truth is, you'd never notice it unless you stood up and measured it.
Not to say it makes me happy, but I had them for years before I ever knew.

Dr. M

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Karyudo,

thanks once again for your helpful answers. I totally understand the region/standard thing and now it seems obvious - I think I had a mental block about it!

One more thing though, if it's not cropping you have qualms about with the PAL LD telecines, what is it?

P.S. DVD-BOY - thanks, too.

P.P.S. I thought France had SECAM?
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Originally posted by: Doctor M
Karyudo, be nice, I have the "Incredible Shrinking" aspect ratio version of the LDs.
The truth is, you'd never notice it unless you stood up and measured it.
Not to say it makes me happy, but I had them for years before I ever knew.


I've never actually seen them, so I don't really know how bad it is. Still, I think most would agree there is a problem, and that it's not just "operator's choice" of framing. That's all I really meant by the somewhat-harsh "completely botched" comment!
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Originally posted by: THX
If it's not cropping you have qualms about with the PAL LD telecines, what is it?

Same things that could make an NTSC transfer poor: dust, video dropouts, sharpness, colour, saturation. That sort of thing. I own both NTSC and PAL transfers, and they're both pretty good. Neither is flawless. I think player choice makes the biggest difference -- the quality of the X0 transfer is just unattainable with the PAL-spec machines generally available.

But working with PAL is nice for at least one reason: no bloody IVTC to worry about!

I thought France had SECAM?


They do. But it's the TV/VCR/LD player/DVD player that is SECAM; the program material on disc is PAL. Don't ask me what the difference is between PAL & SECAM! Obviously it's not that big...

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Originally posted by: Karyudo
a) the best possible LD>DVD transfer should start with a PAL LD, regardless of the eventual region/standard of viewing; True, if the following two things are also true:

1) The PAL telecine session is as good as or better than the NTSC session;
....
I can tell you from direct experience that it is unclear that (1) is true... It would be useful if someone who has the NTSC and PAL discs could capture from both using the same hardware and settings. This would give a true comparison and clear up any doubt. In fact, I remember someone saying they would do this some time ago...

Originally posted by: Karyudo
Do you know which releases correspond to which aspect ratio
Not really. If you check IMDb, I think they'll all say 2.35:1, because that was the OAR of the movie, but if you do the math on a capture, it isn't always right.
A quick calculaton shows that the D.C. discs are 2.32:1, and my PAL discs are 2.37:1. But like you say, the figures are unimportant.

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i'm in the middle of converting the faces LD set to 16:9. i'm using virtualdub for the enlarging. at the top and the bottom of the letterboxed image, a white line sometimes apears when there are bright colors present. i think it from the resize filter. how can i prevent this? should i use the Border control filter and cover it with the black region?
Thank You Moth3r for this post, i'm purchasing a Wega Widescreen 34" next month and your post convinced me about the 16:9 conversion was the way to go. on my standard wega(it has enhanced widescreen mode) i notice a difference with this anamorphic conversion.
Echuta
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The best place to ask questions about VDub and/or AviSynth is probably Doom9's forums. Especially for those not-often-encountered anomalies like your white lines. Another good place to check on this stuff is the VideoHelp forums. That's where I met MBJ and Zion, for example...
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"That's where I met MBJ"

Under a different name.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Both of you under different names, even!