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ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss! — Page 2

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TV's Frink said:

Hey, it's me. said:

Now ya see, ya said Chuck Testa there which is obviously an American 'joke' I was totally unaware of. I looked it up and can't see the comedy in it. I suppose you had to be around at the time (shrug) if I started quoting Blackadder (I'm from the UK) and Red Dwarf you'd have no idea what I was going on about. Did you quote it to belittle me so other members would find it funny? Maybe I've got you all wrong?

But I've heard of Black Adder and Red Dwarf.

 

And I only said "Chuck Testa" so that xhonzi didn't have to.  Had nothing to do with you.

Forgive me Frink I'm new here. Still trying to understand what everyone's about. Must apologise.

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Hey, it's me. said:

And your right, whoever puts ROTS close to Jedi needs a labotomy. Or has already had one. 

TPM and AOTC provided the lobotomy.

Reverend! 

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TheBoost said:

I love "Jedi". I'm sure I watch it more than I watch "Empire."

 Yep, same here.

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With Star Wars, pretty much everyone is in agreement as to what is cool about it. There's no need to defend it. Same with Empire.

Jedi however is uneven. There are brilliant bits, and some of the worst moments in the trilogy. I think that watching the first two can make you think that Star Wars is naturally awesome and this is its natural state. When you watch Jedi, you realize just how badly things could go, and how easily. It is the trilogy at its best and its worst, and for this it seems the most relatable, the most, should I say, human. If that makes any sense.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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NeverarGreat said:

With Star Wars, pretty much everyone is in agreement as to what is cool about it. There's no need to defend it. Same with Empire.

Jedi however is uneven. There are brilliant bits, and some of the worst moments in the trilogy. I think that watching the first two can make you think that Star Wars is naturally awesome and this is its natural state. When you watch Jedi, you realize just how badly things could go, and how easily. It is the trilogy at its best and its worst, and for this it seems the most relatable, the most, should I say, human. If that makes any sense.

Hmm not really. A film having flaws doesn't make it more relatable IMO. A story with flawed characters makes it relatable. Not a flawed story. That's poor story writing. The characters and story of Empire (and Star Wars to a lesser extent) were pretty much spot on. 

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I didn't think too much to ROTJ tbh, the opening scenes rescuing Han seem to be there to just pad out the movie a little, and after that, with the rest of the film only having the one important plot point of Vader's redemption, it gave nearly all the supporting characters practically nothing to do.

The battle scene as well in Endor didn't seem as good as the one on Hoth, in my opinion.

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I think ROTJ is on par with SW and ESB.

Any kind of comparison between the three in terms of story is stupid since the individual storylines are complementary. I think the ROTJ storyline concludes the trilogy in a great way.

Well Han and Leia took the back seat in ROTJ (compared to SW and ESB) but that most certainly doesn't mean the characters are badly written in general (as some people get the impression). It is just that other characters (and their development) are more prominent (Luke, Emperor, Jabba, Vader). ESB practically sucked Han and Leia character potential dry. To keep them going, Lucas could have postponed the love proclamation into ROTJ. But then he would degrade ESB.

Anyway I think it is great as it is. OT are my top 3 favourite films.

真実

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Hey, it's me. said:

NeverarGreat said:

With Star Wars, pretty much everyone is in agreement as to what is cool about it. There's no need to defend it. Same with Empire.

Jedi however is uneven. There are brilliant bits, and some of the worst moments in the trilogy. I think that watching the first two can make you think that Star Wars is naturally awesome and this is its natural state. When you watch Jedi, you realize just how badly things could go, and how easily. It is the trilogy at its best and its worst, and for this it seems the most relatable, the most, should I say, human. If that makes any sense.

Hmm not really. A film having flaws doesn't make it more relatable IMO. A story with flawed characters makes it relatable. Not a flawed story. That's poor story writing. The characters and story of Empire (and Star Wars to a lesser extent) were pretty much spot on. 

I shouldn't have said relatable. It's difficult to describe really. You know movies based on true stories often have trouble ending things in a satisfying way, and the fact that this movie has trouble bringing things together flawlessly makes it more realistic in a sense. You wouldn't expect Ewoks to be a part of Star Wars, or Han to be put in carbonite to quickly be freed from it in the first act. In a way, these unrealistic elements make the movie more alien, because it makes the audience realize that this isn't like real life. But Star Wars is an alien universe, so it's not supposed to be like real life. The paradox is that the flaws make it more intriguing even as they make it worse.

The short of it is that the movie is surreal. It's like watching a movie about a theatrical production of Return of the Jedi, and that makes it arresting in its own way.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

ROTJ is a poorly-conceived movie with ridiculous plot holes and a shoddy structure, that is totally rescued by the wonderful additions of two memorable characters: Jabba, and the Emperor.  Every scene with those characters in them are marvelous, and the juxtaposition of a wrinkly old evil sorceror with this high-tech space battle is fabulously done. The climactic scene with Vader, Luke, and the Emperor is on a par with anything in the OT. 

Win!  

The three-way climax really was a fine piece of propulsive editing (thanks again, Marcia), elegant and rousing in equal measure.  I still want to stand and cheer when Lando makes it out of the Death Star, and I still get misty when Luke looks at the ghosts of Obi-Wan, Yoda and Sebastian Shaw.  Even though ROTJ is a lesser film than its predecessors, I've always found it satisfying as a character piece.  

And I'm totally fine with the Ewoks.  We actually got to know them, which I why I like the storytelling scene even though it brings the film to a dead halt.  It's odd really - I like all the parts of ROTJ, but they don't quite fit together.  

In defense of ROTJ, I've never found it to be as childish as it's often said to be.  Sure, it was the one easiest to like as a wee lad, but the business with Luke, Vader and the Emperor was very adult, and very morally complicated (not to mention scary as hell in places).  Even the central relationships between Han, Leia and Luke seemed more mature, like when Han catches himself on his macho bullcrap and apologizes to Leia.  And even though the structure really falters in the middle, I've always found some charm in it - I don't know of many mega-budget franchise-ending blockbusters that were so quiet in the middle act.  
  

That’s impossible, even for a computer.

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ROTJ is largely uninspired and lazy, but the stuff with Luke, Vader and Palpatine is good. Also, this was the first Star Wars film to introduce lightsaber colours beyond blue and red, so I'll always love it for that (the comics had already done that years before, though, so new ground wasn't actually broken in this regard I suppose).

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People complain about the second Death Star and how repetitive it is without really thinking about what it means. Think of the psychology that goes into building a massive space station which gets destroyed so you build another fairly similar one. The entire purpose is to destroy entire planets. So that's major hubris and major bloodlust. How does that not match up with everything the Emperor did and said in ROTJ?

All I really want is each film as it was originally seen and heard in theaters; no fixes, corrections, "improvements" or modifications necessary.

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There was a line cut out where they get into the Death Star and Wedge sees the big reactor thing and says the x wing torpedoes won't even hurt it. But the Falcon and its tricked out gunnery can. In essence it would not have worked if the unconventional Falcon hadn't been there. If that line had been left in it might have alleviated the idea that the same mistake had been made twice. (And made good use of the "character" of the Falcon as well and adding weight to Han's insistence on it being used. 

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Not to mention the DS II is supposed to be bigger and more powerful than the first one. Purposely making it look unfinished and vulnerable is pure evil genius.

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Where were you in '77?

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If you have just had the first one blown up wouldn't it make more sense to build lots of small Death Stars in different locations (each which could be finished more quickly) than an even bigger one that takes ages to finish and can be blown up in one go?

Everything about Jedi makes very little sense, looks unfinished and the acting really awful in places.

Mark and Ian are great, Jabba is interesting but everything else feels like a contractual obligation piece which as almost as bad as the PT.

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Bingowings said:

If you have just had the first one blown up wouldn't it make more sense to build lots of small Death Stars in different locations (each which could be finished more quickly) than an even bigger one that takes ages to finish and can be blown up in one go?

Who says it was started only after the first was destroyed? They could have started building it years before Yavin.

You see... in ww1 era if they sunk a battleship then the country made a bigger one. They didn't make a few smaller ones instead. Same in ww2 with aircraft carriers (except Japan at the end of the war). So it makes perfect sense.

真実

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I would suspect you can only build a planet destroying laser so small. The energy requirements and such are that enormous. There's also the psychological aspect of a "terror weapon" big enough to be seen in the sky on a sunny day.

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Where were you in '77?

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The power behind the Empire was to be big and imposing and strike fear throughout the Galaxy. That's how the Emperor liked to roll. They did learn the lessons from the 1st Death Star. While construction was being completed it was being protected by the force field. I'm sure once it was all done it would've been able to generate its own field. Access to the inners for repairs and stuff meant there had to be big shafts. Otherwise, how are you going to carry out such work? It wasn't meant to be a weakness, they were there for practical purposes. 

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The thing about the Death Star was it wasn't meant to be just a gun.

It was a mobile sector capital (prison cells, administration offices, troop barracks, weapons stores etc) and a gun powerful enough to blow up a planet.

Seeing as the rebels blew up the first one it would have made more story sense to just build lots of gun versions in multiple locations.

That would have made ROTJ less visually parasitic on ANH (a gun only planet smasher would probably look very different to the original Death Star) and the story would be interesting (tracking down each gun and taking them out under a deadline).

You could even have had the rebels face the moral question of using one themselves if they managed to hotwire one.

The interesting stuff would still be the confrontation between the Emperor and Luke but the conflict would span the galaxy making the final conclusion make more sense.

Instead we get a bit of the battle of Yavin mixed with a bit of the battle of Hoth with a slight twist.

The film looks a lot cheaper than it was, like it's using recycled sets and props to push out a quick cheap film to make a final dollar.

Which is a shame because following the trajectory of the first two films the series deserve better.

Jedi is really an indication of the SE and PT that followed it (Lucas having a hit on his hands he really doesn't get).

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You all make very fine well reasoned arguments against ROTJ.  In fact so much so that I've changed my opinion.  ESB is the bes....

...wait WOW just watched luke flipping in the air above the sarlac pit, catching a lightsaber outta the air then kickin ass Errol Flynn 1930's style!

Return Of The Jedi IS the best Star Wars Film!

 

lol

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Bingowings said:

Jedi is really an indication of the SE and PT that followed it.

That is a silly statement...

Just how does ROTJ indicate to the SE? There is more miniature model based SFX in ROTJ than in any Star Wars film. Not to mention, ROTJ suffered the most from latest SEs (Hayden, NOOO, Dug)

And the prequels are fundamentally a complete opposite of ROTJ. ROTJ is essentially a pure adventure/fantasy film (I would say even more so than SW and ESB). While the prequels are essentially a soap opera about an annoying troubled kid growing up.

真実

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imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

Jedi is really an indication of the SE and PT that followed it.

That is a silly statement...

Just how does ROTJ indicate to the SE? There is more miniature model based SFX in ROTJ than in any Star Wars film. Not to mention, ROTJ suffered the most from latest SEs (Hayden, NOOO, Dug)

And the prequels are fundamentally a complete opposite of ROTJ. ROTJ is essentially a pure adventure/fantasy film (I would say even more so than SW and ESB). While the prequels are essentially a soap opera about an annoying troubled kid growing up.

I can totally see what Bingowings means. For example...Gungans/Naboo/JedivSith Theed battle is a similar structure to Ewoks/Rebels/LukevVader Endor battle.

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I like how the emperor at the end acts as though he is enjoying inflicting pain on Luke.  The more Luke writhes in pain, the more the emperor smiles like he's getting off on it.  I know it would be more complex and sophisticated if there remained some ambiguity about the balance between order and freedom.  But I think a lot of what the empire, Vader, and the emperor did is more easily explained when you realize that at the center of it all is this crazy man who is just bad, and just enjoys hurting people.

"Close the blast doors!"
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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

I like how the emperor at the end acts as though he is enjoying inflicting pain on Luke.  The more Luke writhes in pain, the more the emperor smiles like he's getting off on it.  I know it would be more complex and sophisticated if there remained some ambiguity about the balance between order and freedom.  But I think a lot of what the empire, Vader, and the emperor did is more easily explained when you realize that at the center of it all is this crazy man who is just bad, and just enjoys hurting people

 

im sure if the Emperor had a wallet it had 'Bad MotherF***er' written on it.:)

 

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imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

Jedi is really an indication of the SE and PT that followed it.

That is a silly statement…

Just how does ROTJ indicate to the SE? There is more miniature model based SFX in ROTJ than in any Star Wars film. Not to mention, ROTJ suffered the most from latest SEs (Hayden, NOOO, Dug)

And the prequels are fundamentally a complete opposite of ROTJ. ROTJ is essentially a pure adventure/fantasy film (I would say even more so than SW and ESB). While the prequels are essentially a soap opera about an annoying troubled kid growing up.

You got the bit where I said it was my opinion right?

If you want to talk soap the whole Leia, Han, Luke triangle is pure soap.

The convenient death count is pure soap too.

Jabba, Fett, Yoda, Piett, Palpatine, Vader, Death Star, The Whole Empire.

It’s insanely cheap story telling.

The goofy Ewok humour is a foreshadowing of what Lucas with do with the Jar-Jar (both have their comedy aliens hit themselves twirling something around their heads). You have burp humour, projectile tongue humour, treading in shit is the only way forward from there.

As I said Ian (while a little less spooky than the Clive Revile/Chimp eyed lady combination) is really good, Jabba looks as real as Yoda did (even if Yoda seems to have forgotten how to act like Yoda) and Mark gives his best performance.

Everything else is just by the numbers (just like the PT).

As Threepio said; "Here we go again".