Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo — Page 563

moviefreakedmind said:

Cops are supposed to approach things calmly and rationally, even if the situation is intense.

True, but they are still humans, not robots.

Also, the guy was down and surrendering.

not when he putting his hand behind his back like he was going for a gun

They didn’t need to shoot him. Like I said, even if he did think that the guy was pulling a gun, that just means that the officer is criminally negligent and should be tried and hopefully imprisoned for manslaughter.

Wait, I don’t understand. The cop is criminally negligent just because he thought the guy was pulling a gun?? That doesn’t seem to make sense.

Jeebus said:

Warbler said:

That is what they were trying to do, arrest him, I think.

And the sick Simon Says game was just part of the arrest, right?

As I said. I don’t agree with that part and don’t understand they just didn’t order the guy to lay flat and search him and then arrest him in that position. But I am not a cop, perhaps there is a good reason for not doing that I don’t know about.

What should they have done? approach a suspect that could have been armed and try to arrest him and risk getting shot?

Yes. They’re taught that one officer to is supposed to aim at the suspect and provide cover while the other officer moves up to make the arrest.

You realize that if the suspect does something that requires the officer to fire while the other officer is in position to make the arrest, he be firing right in the direction of the officer making the arrest, right?

2. the average untrained citizen does not understand everything about police work. Sometimes they may do something that does not make sense to the untrained person but makes perfect sense to the trained person.

Oh, so it is just part of the arrest, how silly of me to think that I could possibly understand. I just don’t have a high enough IQ to understand these incredibly complex 16th dimension tactics. Bullshit. Do we really have to know the ins and outs of police work to recognize that this was wrong?

It is not a matter of not having a high enough IQ, it is a matter of not having the training and knowledge that comes with. Of course if you sit down with cops and talked with them and ask them questions and trained with them, you would be capable of understanding. But you haven’t done that, have you? Therefore there are things that they know that you don’t. For example until I talked with Ferris and saw that video that I linked to and other things, I didn’t understand why the tazer couldn’t/shouldn’t be used in many situations. Tell me, how would you like someone to judge how well you do your job, without having your training and without knowing the ins and outs of your job?

3. watching a video again and again and again and perhaps in slow motion and being able to think all day about what the cop should have done while being safe and calm is not the same as the cop himself watching events fold out in real time having make decisions in split seconds with adrenaline pumping and heart beating and knowing if he makes a mistake he could get shot or another cop could get shot and having only one chance to get it right. Remember when that guy put his hand behind his back, the cop couldn’t just stop the video like we can and ponder what he should do before he hits play again.

The cops put themselves in that situation by fucking around with the suspect and not getting on with the arrest.

Again, I am not sure why they were going through with all that instead of ordering the guy to lay flat and search him and arrest him. Again knowing what happened before the camera started rolling would help and so would speaking to cops and finding out about the proper tactics in these situations.

Either the officers are beyond stupid, or they deliberately wanted to prolong the engagement and raise the chances of the suspect fucking up. There is no third option. And I won’t accept that “they feared for their lives” crap, these were two trained officers with assault rifles up against a man crawling on the floor crying and begging not to be shot.

He may have been crying, but I didn’t hear him beg not to be shot. He wasn’t crawling on the floor at the time he was shot, He reached behind his back and quickly brought it out again (against what he was ordered to do) like he was going for a gun.

EDIT: Sorry if this came across as too angry, but I really am tired of the gymnastics people will do to defend some cops. And I’m doubly tired of the “they felt threatened” get-out-of-jail-free card.

Well maybe cops are tired of being presumed guilty all time by people with no training and no real knowledge of police work. I agree they shouldn’t get a “‘they felt threaten’ get-out-of-jail-free card”, but maybe they also shouldn’t have to live in fear that their lives will be ruined just be cause they had to act to defend their lives and/or that of their partner. Maybe with everyone out to get the cops, assuming they are just a bunch bigots out to get black people, someone ought to be doing a little gymnastics to defend them.

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

But I am not a cop, perhaps there is a good reason for not doing that I don’t know about.

See, this is the mental gymnastics Jeebus is talking about. You’ll always bend over backwards to give the benefit of the doubt to the officers. Why aren’t you giving the same benefit of the doubt to the ones being shot here? It’s not helpful.

The officer is the one that stands accused, the benefit of the doubt goes to the defendant. Also it is true, I am not cop, I don’t have that kind of training, and there are things they do that might look wrong the untrained eye, but make sense then you’ve had the training. Finally, in today’s world there seem to be plenty that want to give the benefit of the doubt to the suspect and not to the cop. Maybe I feel like balancing things out a little.

yhwx said:

When you’re in a difficult job involving life or death decisions, there should be the utmost of accountability.

There should be, but also when you’re the defendant, you get the benefit of the doubt.

moviefreakedmind said:

You’re innocent until proven guilty, that has little to do with being given benefits of the doubt.

You forgot a very important part: you’re innocent until proven guilty BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. THAT definitely has something to do with being given the benefit of the doubt.

It just means he’s innocent in the eyes of the law until convicted, it doesn’t mean we can’t speak harshly based on what looks like clear evidence.

You’re 100% free to speak. But one of things we’ve been arguing about whether he should have been found guilty of second degree murder. When we are talking about whether the cop should be convicted in a court of law, we must by definition, give him the benefit of the doubt.

yhwx said:

The court of public opinion is very different than the court of law.

Yes, I know. It is a very good thing a court of law is different of the court of public opinion.

Warbler said:

Jeebus said:

Warbler said:

That is what they were trying to do, arrest him, I think.

And the sick Simon Says game was just part of the arrest, right?

As I said. I don’t agree with that part and don’t understand they just didn’t order the guy to lay flat and search him and then arrest him in that position. But I am not a cop, perhaps there is a good reason for not doing that I don’t know about.

This doubt is unreasonable.

What should they have done? approach a suspect that could have been armed and try to arrest him and risk getting shot?

Yes. They’re taught that one officer to is supposed to aim at the suspect and provide cover while the other officer moves up to make the arrest.

You realize that if the suspect does something that requires the officer to fire while the other officer is in position to make the arrest, he be firing right in the direction of the officer making the arrest, right?

Cop 1 goes around the left, Bodycam Cop keeps his aim on Shaver. It would be a little risky, though, you’re right. I think it would’ve been safest to move him towards the end of the hallway, which looks much more open and conducive to a safe arrest.

2. the average untrained citizen does not understand everything about police work. Sometimes they may do something that does not make sense to the untrained person but makes perfect sense to the trained person.

Oh, so it is just part of the arrest, how silly of me to think that I could possibly understand. I just don’t have a high enough IQ to understand these incredibly complex 16th dimension tactics. Bullshit. Do we really have to know the ins and outs of police work to recognize that this was wrong?

It not a matter of not having a high enough IQ, it is a matter of not having the training and knowledge that comes with. Of course you if you say down with cops

I’m not saying “down with cops,” I respect cops for the most part; but I also think they should be held to a higher standard, and that their job is too important not to be scrutinized.

Tell me, how you like someone to judge how well you do your job, with having your training and without knowing the ins and outs of your job?

My job isn’t nearly as important or potentially dangerous. Allowing bad cops to go unchecked creates a dangerous precedent.

3. watching a video again and again and again and perhaps in slow motion and being able to think all day about what the cop should have done while being safe and calm is not the same as the cop himself watching events fold out in real time having make decisions in split seconds with adrenaline pumping and heart beating and knowing if he makes a mistake he could get shot or another cop could get shot and having only one chance to get it right. Remember when that guy put his hand behind his back, the cop couldn’t just stop the video like we can and ponder what he should do before he hits play again.

The cops put themselves in that situation by fucking around with the suspect and not getting on with the arrest.

Again, I am not sure why they were going through with all that instead of ordering the guy to lay flat and search him and arrest him. Again knowing what happened before the camera started rolling would help and would speaking to cops and finding out about the proper tactics in these situations.

According to the article, Shaver immediately exited the room and complied with their demands.

EDIT: Sorry if this came across as too angry, but I really am tired of the gymnastics people will do to defend some cops. And I’m doubly tired of the “they felt threatened” get-out-of-jail-free card.

Well maybe cops are tired of being presumed guilty all time by people with no training and no real knowledge of police work.

I’m not presuming anything, I’m coming to a conclusion based on the evidence.

I agree they shouldn’t a " ‘they felt threaten’ get-out-of-jail-free card", but maybe they also shouldn’t have to live in fear that their lives will be ruined just be cause they had to act to defend their lives and/or that of their partner.

If they conduct themselves properly, there’s no reason to worry. This was not conducted properly,

Maybe with everyone out to get the cops, assuming they are just a bunch bigots out to get black people,

You’re ascribing views to me that I don’t hold.

Jeebus said:

Warbler said:

Jeebus said:

Warbler said:

That is what they were trying to do, arrest him, I think.

And the sick Simon Says game was just part of the arrest, right?

As I said. I don’t agree with that part and don’t understand they just didn’t order the guy to lay flat and search him and then arrest him in that position. But I am not a cop, perhaps there is a good reason for not doing that I don’t know about.

This doubt is unreasonable.

your opinion.

What should they have done? approach a suspect that could have been armed and try to arrest him and risk getting shot?

Yes. They’re taught that one officer to is supposed to aim at the suspect and provide cover while the other officer moves up to make the arrest.

You realize that if the suspect does something that requires the officer to fire while the other officer is in position to make the arrest, he be firing right in the direction of the officer making the arrest, right?

Cop 1 goes around the left, Bodycam Cop keeps his aim on Shaver. It would be a little risky, though, you’re right. I think it would’ve been safest to move him towards the end of the hallway, which looks much more open and conducive to a safe arrest.

perhaps. But I am not an expert on these situations. Are you?

2. the average untrained citizen does not understand everything about police work. Sometimes they may do something that does not make sense to the untrained person but makes perfect sense to the trained person.

Oh, so it is just part of the arrest, how silly of me to think that I could possibly understand. I just don’t have a high enough IQ to understand these incredibly complex 16th dimension tactics. Bullshit. Do we really have to know the ins and outs of police work to recognize that this was wrong?

It not a matter of not having a high enough IQ, it is a matter of not having the training and knowledge that comes with. Of course you if you say down with cops

I’m not saying “down with cops,”

oops sorry about. I made several typos in that part of the post. I did not mean “you say down with cops” Please reread that part of the post. I meant to say “if you sit down with the cops”

I respect cops for the most part; but I also think they should be held to a higher standard, and that their job is too important not to be scrutinized.

agree.

Tell me, how you like someone to judge how well you do your job, with having your training and without knowing the ins and outs of your job?

My job isn’t nearly as important or potentially dangerous. Allowing bad cops to go unchecked creates a dangerous precedent.

I don’t want to allow bad cops to go unchecked.

3. watching a video again and again and again and perhaps in slow motion and being able to think all day about what the cop should have done while being safe and calm is not the same as the cop himself watching events fold out in real time having make decisions in split seconds with adrenaline pumping and heart beating and knowing if he makes a mistake he could get shot or another cop could get shot and having only one chance to get it right. Remember when that guy put his hand behind his back, the cop couldn’t just stop the video like we can and ponder what he should do before he hits play again.

The cops put themselves in that situation by fucking around with the suspect and not getting on with the arrest.

Again, I am not sure why they were going through with all that instead of ordering the guy to lay flat and search him and arrest him. Again knowing what happened before the camera started rolling would help and would speaking to cops and finding out about the proper tactics in these situations.

According to the article, Shaver immediately exited the room and complied with their demands.

If true, it would seem that the the cop was acting at the beginning of the video doesn’t make sense. But I will still like to see what trained police officer like Ferris would have to say about this.

EDIT: Sorry if this came across as too angry, but I really am tired of the gymnastics people will do to defend some cops. And I’m doubly tired of the “they felt threatened” get-out-of-jail-free card.

Well maybe cops are tired of being presumed guilty all time by people with no training and no real knowledge of police work.

I’m not presuming anything, I’m coming to a conclusion based on the evidence.

You presumed they “got on the scene intending to kill someone”

You presumed they “They shouted confusing demands at him, hoping for him to slip up; as if to justify their cold-blooded murder.”

You presumed they “wanted to play with their prey”

I agree they shouldn’t a " ‘they felt threaten’ get-out-of-jail-free card", but maybe they also shouldn’t have to live in fear that their lives will be ruined just be cause they had to act to defend their lives and/or that of their partner.

If they conduct themselves properly, there’s no reason to worry. This was not conducted properly,

There is every reason to worry. For all we know, Darren Wilson conducted himself properly (physical evidence was uncertain as to what occurred and the witnesses contradicted each other). He is out of a job and his reputation is in ruins.

Maybe with everyone out to get the cops, assuming they are just a bunch bigots out to get black people,

You’re ascribing views to me that I don’t hold.

You no, but there are those that do hold that view.

Warbler said:

Jeebus said:

According to the article, Shaver immediately exited the room and complied with their demands.

If true, it would seem that the the cop was acting at the beginning of the video doesn’t make sense. But I will still like to see what trained police officer like Ferris would have to say about this.

You’re right, it doesn’t make sense. They were behaving unreasonably, don’t you think? It’s almost as if they conducted themselves poorly, and that poor conduct led to a death that didn’t need to happen…

I’m not presuming anything, I’m coming to a conclusion based on the evidence.

You presumed they “got on the scene intending to kill someone”

You presumed they “They shouted confusing demands at him, hoping for him to slip up; as if to justify their cold-blooded murder.”

You presumed they “wanted to play with their prey”

I’ve come down off that high, and no longer feel confident in saying those things. I think they’re possible, and not too unreasonable to assume; but we can’t know for sure.

If they conduct themselves properly, there’s no reason to worry. This was not conducted properly,

There is every reason to worry. For all we know, Darren Wilson conducted himself properly

Oh, okay, so coming onto the scene already on-edge and acting in a way that doesn’t make sense, giving demands that get in the way of a hasty arrest, making someone crawl around on the floor; none of that amounts to poor conduct. What is poor conduct, then?

moviefreakedmind said:

These cops obviously aren’t experts on this situation either because they killed a surrendering man.

Maybe. Maybe not. But when said about experts and talking to cops, I not refering to the cops involved in this incident.

Jeebus said:

Warbler said:

Jeebus said:

According to the article, Shaver immediately exited the room and complied with their demands.

If true, it would seem that the the cop was acting at the beginning of the video doesn’t make sense. But I will still like to see what trained police officer like Ferris would have to say about this.

You’re right, it doesn’t make sense. They were behaving unreasonably, don’t you think?

Maybe. Maybe not. I am not an expert and I don’t have police training, I can’t be certain as to what is and is not reasonable behaviour for cops in this situation. But suspicous of what they were doing.

I’m not presuming anything, I’m coming to a conclusion based on the evidence.

You presumed they “got on the scene intending to kill someone”

You presumed they “They shouted confusing demands at him, hoping for him to slip up; as if to justify their cold-blooded murder.”

You presumed they “wanted to play with their prey”

I’ve come down off that high, and no longer feel confident in saying those things.

Good.

I think they’re possible, and not too unreasonable to assume; but we can’t know for sure.

Well, I think it too unreasonable to assume such.

If they conduct themselves properly, there’s no reason to worry. This was not conducted properly,

There is every reason to worry. For all we know, Darren Wilson conducted himself properly

Oh, okay, so coming onto the scene already on-edge

Did they? They came on to the scene before the video starts. Do we really know that they came on to the scene on-edge?

and acting in a way that doesn’t make sense,

I don’t know that. Again, I am not an expert and have no training and what doesn’t make sense to me might make sense to those with the knowledge, training and experience of police.

giving demands that get in the way of a hasty arrest, making someone crawl around on the floor;

I will admit I don’t understand why they did that. I would love to ask experts what they think of the tactics these cops employed.

none of that amounts to poor conduct. What is poor conduct, then?

It may well be poor conduct. But poor conduct is different than 2nd degree murder.

I hope not, but I am afraid Moore is going to win.

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

I hope not, but I am afraid Moore is going to win.

It’s interesting that Republican voters are all “We’re not interested in your identity politics”

are they?

chyron8472 said:

when what they really seem to be interested in is straight up tribalism. It doesn’t matter what Moore does; he’s part of their tribe and so they support him.

Not that the Democrats are much better, but I just can’t understand the motivation to vote for Trump, or Moore, or any of these archaic backwater hicks.

it really seems to be more a case of (i don’t like the other candidate, so at least lets vote for my party) which quite honestly, is pretty easy to understand.

Sorry, it is not easy understand when the candidate for your party is racist and been accused of sexual assault.