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70mm mix to ’93 mix comparison

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This is a follow-up to a previous post -

http://www.originaltrilogy.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=9&threadid=5739

- for fun mostly, and perhaps of minor historical significance. Associated audiofiles posting now at alt.binaries.starwars. Many thanks to Moth3r for assistance in making this available.

What we have here is a comparison of the DC ’93 mix to the original 70mm 6-track.

In the left channel is an “in theater” recording of a 70mm engagement from 1977 at the Loews Astor Plaza in New York City, with occasional patching from another 70mm recording at the Loews Orpheum. The quality is not great and there is peak distortion due to the shortcomings of the cassette recorder used. The very beginning of the Fox fanfare and the end credits music are missing, but it is otherwise complete and 100% authentic.

In the right channel is a mono fold-down of the ’93 mix from the Definitive Collection/Faces laserdiscs.

The idea of this little exercise (for anyone who might care) is to demonstrate the documented similarity of the two, and to identify the additional material that was layed in at the ’93 mix session. I was quite surprised at how many more small details were added than I had previously noticed. I have noted “timecode” addresses for each. The sync is not perfect, but close enough for the intended purpose.

Minor note: There are two brief sections where the tracks do not line up. Both are due to modifications/repairs to the ’93.

The first is at 6:36 for about 2 seconds and includes 3PO’s line: “You’ll be deactivated for sure” where the audio in the ’93 goes mono and slightly “lo-fi”. I never noticed this before I “put this under the microscope”. I guess there was a problem with the main source and they opted to do a quick fix.

The second occurs at 1:09:53 involving a 3 second shot of the droids on the Death Star (featuring 3PO’s line: “That isn’t very reassuring.”). This was a problem with all previous video issues - both the picture and sound quality dropped noticeably, as if the shot had to be replaced from an inferior source. This was fixed for the ’93 version, and I’m guessing the sound was remixed but the placement of elements was positioned slightly differently.


Additions to the ’93 mix:

2:15.............................EXPLOSIONS

2:29.............................EXPLOSIONS

3:31.............................LOW RUMBLE *

6:49.............................LASER IMPACT

13:38...........................ELECTRICAL SPARKING

38:42...........................ARTOO VOCALIZATION *

45:16...........................CREATURE VOCALIZATION *

48:46...........................CHEWBACCA VOCALIZATION *

1:00:43 – 1:01:04..........PLANET DEBRIS WHIZZING BY FALCON

1:01:14........................TIE LASERFIRE

1:12:07........................LASERFIRE

1:12:08 – 1:12:31..........GLASS SHATTERS (8X)

1:16:18........................LASERFIRE

1:16:22........................LASERFIRE

1:17:31........................POUNDING ON DOOR *

1:17:45........................WATER NOISE *

1:18:19........................POUNDING ON DOOR *

1:18:39........................UNDERWATER MECHANICAL NOISE *

1:32:45........................TIE LASERFIRE

1:32:53........................TIE LASERFIRE

1:33:03........................TIE LASERFIRE

1:47:15........................TURRET LASERFIRE

1:51:12........................TURRET LASERFIRE

1:53:15........................EXPLOSION


* (Also common to the mono mix)


One last note: I found that the real-time counters on some media players (such as Windows Media Player) do not always track accurately when playing back mp3 files. If you do not seem to be successfully locating things at the addresses indicated, try opening the file with a different program.
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Awesome! Belbecus, you da man. For some reason I couldn't download the entire file though; it said part of it was missing or corrupted. So I'm going on my memory of hearing a 70mm recording here.

Looking over the list, I can hear the exact additions in my head for most of those. Couldn't tell you how many times I've watched the movie to compare all the differences in everything. (Too many for my own good, surely! lol) It's great to have a list to refer to with exact times. Would have been so cool to have seen the movie in a 70mm showing back in the day . . .

There's at least one more I'd thought of before I'd heard the 70mm, being a screeching sound that occurs just before Gold Two's explosion, though I see that that sound is present, where it was not on the 35mm (assuming the '85 mix can be taken as mostly representative of the 35mm). Proof that the 35 and the 70 were not entirely identical in terms of content, though very close.
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Thanks belbucus! How big are those files?
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The stereo mp3 I sent to Moth3r was 163MB. He was going post it as a split
RAR archive, with volumes of about 15MB each. (The post preceding yours by hairy_hen said he had some problems in downloading. I'll check back later today to see if there's any other mention of this.)
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Thanks Belbucus !

Moth3r posted 10% parity volumes (*.PAR2 files) along with the .RAR parts.
All the .RARs are complete on Astraweb, so I didn't need the .PAR2s.
Unless hairy_hen's news provider is missing more than 10% of the .RARs, she ought to be able to repair using the .PAR2s.
Perhaps hairy_hen is unfamiliar with repair the procedure ?

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Darth Mallwalker: I'm a guy, actually, lol. My username is just an absurd nickname I had in middle school, when calling things 'hairy' was tremendously funny. The hen part is an abbreviation of my last name.

Anyway--I'm going to try downloading it again and see what happens. I haven't downloaded much from newsgroups, so I'm not familiar with the procedures to follow about the files and all.
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I was able to hear most, but not all, of the changes, and undid what I noticed. (They were off by about 6 sec. on Audacity, noting, I had them presynched to GOUT.)

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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Moth3r posted the .MP3, and IIRC a lossless .WAV was also posted last autumn.

Since that time Belbucus has revisited this project.
He recently released a new version which is resampled @48kHz and sync'ed to GOUT video.

Belbucus writes:
A running comparison of the '93 DC/Faces mix (folded
down to mono) on channel 1 - to an "in theatre"
recording of the "77 70mm 6-track mix on channel 2.


Thank you Belbucus for sharing this.

It's currently posting to alt.binaries.starwars

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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(Carried over from the mono mix thread)
Originally posted by: Belbucus
Originally posted by: Arnie.d
“Belbucus, what is your next project? Recreating the 6-track? ”

(Not sure if you were kidding).… but the serious answer would be that the only available source for the discreet elements (outside of the Lucasfilm vault) would be from a 70mm print. Find me one and we’re in business! I could probably work up a Prologic version - stripping the additions off of the ‘93 mix, but personally I find them all to be welcome additions.
Theoretically, a large proportion of the discreet elements may have been worked into the '97 mix. I'm thinking elements such as the LFE channel and full-range surrounds might be present in the 5.1 Dolby Digital track off the SE laserdiscs. (The 5.1 mix on the '04 DVDs should be avoided for obvious reasons.)

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alright, now you got me all excited..

 

so where does one find this wonderful treasure at?

(after hearing the other 70mm mix)..

 

thanks for any help..

 

later

-1

[no GOUT in CED?-> GOUT CED]

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Anyone else want this?

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I would love to give it a listen!

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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I listened to this file and it is very interesting to hear the actual in-theatre recording again.  Part of the time I ended up muting the right channel and just listened to the '77 version.  It has been useful in my effort to recreate the 70mm soundtrack, causing me to go back and do a couple edits over again.  I found that there are actually 2 extra Chewie vocalisations in the cantina scene, one of which I hadn't really noticed before.

Much of the older version does sound very much like the DC mix, though there are some oddities, which I presume are shortcomings of the recording and not actual differences.  For one, the surround channel is barely audible throughout; and the bass content is indistinct.  I can hear that it's there, but it isn't clear enough to tell accurately--sometimes it seems noticeably louder than what's on the laserdisc, and other times more subdued.  This can probably be attributed to the theatre acoustics in addition to recording flaws.  It makes for a good general reference, though ultimately I still have to rely on my own judgement in terms of creating an LFE channel.

I'm going to have another listen and see what else I can find.  Thanks for this, Moth3r!

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Thanks again, Moth3r!

What a great historical artifact. Now if only a recording of the 70mm Empire would show up...

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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Additions to the ’93 mix:

2:15.............................EXPLOSIONS

2:29.............................EXPLOSIONS

3:31.............................LOW RUMBLE *

6:49.............................LASER IMPACT

13:38...........................ELECTRICAL SPARKING

38:42...........................ARTOO VOCALIZATION *

45:16...........................CREATURE VOCALIZATION *

48:46...........................CHEWBACCA VOCALIZATION *

1:00:43 – 1:01:04..........PLANET DEBRIS WHIZZING BY FALCON

1:01:14........................TIE LASERFIRE

1:12:07........................LASERFIRE

1:12:08 – 1:12:31..........GLASS SHATTERS (8X)

1:16:18........................LASERFIRE

1:16:22........................LASERFIRE

1:17:31........................POUNDING ON DOOR *

1:17:45........................WATER NOISE *

1:18:19........................POUNDING ON DOOR *

1:18:39........................UNDERWATER MECHANICAL NOISE *

1:32:45........................TIE LASERFIRE

1:32:53........................TIE LASERFIRE

1:33:03........................TIE LASERFIRE

1:47:15........................TURRET LASERFIRE

1:51:12........................TURRET LASERFIRE

1:53:15........................EXPLOSION


* (Also common to the mono mix)
aside from those sounds common to the mono mix, is it known if all other additions were modern or if some may have been original sounds that didn't show up in the previous mixes?
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