doubleofive said:
The battle droid head is one of my favorite parts of ANHR, the first thing I saw that made me KNOW this was my kind of Special Edition.
It was a good idea but I think a Pit Droid would have been a more appropriate choice.
Tobar said:
doubleofive said:
The battle droid head is one of my favorite parts of ANHR, the first thing I saw that made me KNOW this was my kind of Special Edition.
It was a good idea but I think a Pit Droid would have been a more appropriate choice.
I was thinking the exact same thing about the Pit droid.
Tobar said:
doubleofive said:
The battle droid head is one of my favorite parts of ANHR, the first thing I saw that made me KNOW this was my kind of Special Edition.
It was a good idea but I think a Pit Droid would have been a more appropriate choice.
Who would've thought that, putting something from the prequels into the OT would make people happy. Interesting...
Mr Ghostface said:
Tobar said:
doubleofive said:
The battle droid head is one of my favorite parts of ANHR, the first thing I saw that made me KNOW this was my kind of Special Edition.
It was a good idea but I think a Pit Droid would have been a more appropriate choice.
Who would've thought that, putting something from the prequels into the OT would make people happy. Interesting...
Subtly, as a cameo, like Club Obi Wan in Indiana Jones it is fun. To me having a Battle Droid there is as fun as having a Dalek or Wall-E.
Bingowings said:
It may be possible to present that scene in a interestingly different way regardless of how well it was originally created.
This is a special edition not a restoration.
I can't speak for the techniques suggested as I'd have to see some examples to make a comparison but I'm not filled with rage by changing a scene in a film that already looks good if it matches ethos of this project (which to make a genuinely special special edition).
Change for change sake is bad but change to make some sort of visual difference which sits better with the other changes in this presentation needn't be based on just technical 'errors' or shortcomings in the original versions of either ESB or the various ESB:SEs.
Isn't this exactly what Lucas gets lambasted for? Considering this is all a matter of personal preference, it's difficult to really criticise Lucas for doing what he wants with his movies when Ady and everyone else is doing exactly the same thing. Your first line in particular encapsulates it for me. Oh, don't get me wrong, I love fan edits, I just don't think the hypocrisy towards Lucas is very fair.
Yes, and no one would complain about Lucas making these changes, if the original was released in the same quality.
I don't like some of Ady's changes in ANH:R - but I can simply choose not to watch it. I can't choose not to watch Lucas' fan edits, if I want to watch SW in high quality...
...well now I can actually but that's sort of beside the point here... ;-)
Harmy said:
Sepharih said:
Asteroid-Man said:
Mr Ghostface said:
Why the hell would you WANT to change that scene? It doesn't look that way because of a technical error for heaven's sake.
Because it WAS a technical error - the footage was incorrectly transferred at 24 frames per second and then slowed down in post. For it to be considered an "artistic" approach would just be ignorant; you can argue that for a film like Gladiator which uses choppy slow-mo in a time where 60fps film is readily available, but the shoddy frame rate in that scene from ESB is a technical issue. The matte paintings stood well in their time and have gotten a bit of a boost, so why not this scene? It doesn't change the tone of the scene, nor does it change the story or pace of the film.
I'm all for this change.
Wait...really!??! I always assumed that was an artistic choice......there a source to confirm this?
Personally, I wouldn't mind enhancing that sequence in some way if there's a good idea....but I think it works fine as it currently is...intentional or not. The choppy framerate gives it an almost dream like surreal effect.....works well with the tone of the scene.
It IS definitely intentional. It is slowed down by repeating every frame exactly 3 times but the lightsabres are animated separately for each frame. The choppy slowmo effect starts with the shot of Vader entering and ends with the last shot of the cave scene, which is exactly the part that is supposed to be a dream/hallucination. There is nothing erroneous about it and it most certainly isn't a frame-rate issue and it would be seriously ignorant to think so. And 60fps for slow motion was surely readily available in 1979 just like now.
I'm not saying that Ady couldn't enhance it and give it some more modern dream-like effect but it definitely was not an error back then.
I always liked the effect on that scene. Even if it was done as a technical error. It feels surreal with an effect that is not overused (unlike normal slow-motion or any other blurry dreamy effect). This scene is not suposed to make you think "oh its a dream".
Both the effect and the music in this scene make it dizzy and confusing (this technique has the same effect in your head as the flashy frame-by-frame lights on a disco). A blurry dreamy effect would state clearly that its a dream and normal slow motion will make it "epic".
If they wanted the cave to be in other slow motion, they could have overcranked the camera. They wanted it to be this way. It's SUPPOSED to be dizzy and confusing.
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Exactly.
I suspect A-man means to fix all the errors of the scene by keeping all the original intentions of the filmmakers.
Like harmy said about the 3 frames but the sabers are animated for every frame, maybe there is the problem that needs to fixed without ruin any originality or artistic decisions at the end. Since ady already re rotoscope all the sabers in ESB why not take the extra bit of the time to make the good-->better.
-Angel
No, that's the thing - it's good that the sabres are animated for every frame, because it makes it even more eerie, since the footage has this choppy quality but the sabres are pulsating in real time, which makes it all the more confusing for the brain.
The limitations of the time now is a nice excuse of aerie and confusion of an illusion.
Not that i dont see your point which is true and i agree with it :),
but sometimes defending some techniques from back then that might was an accident or limitation, can sound defensive just of the sake of originality..
Well the final result isnt that it counts? :D
Its like something we say here: It didnt just happened..It just succeeded..
-Angel
I don't think it was due to any limitation though - I'm sure that it was a deliberate choice. It would actually have been easier to have the sabres the same in every repeated frame - it would mean much less roto work. And as was said before, it would have been no problem to shoot it as fluid slow motion but they consciously decided not to.
The lightsabers in the cave scene aren't animated differently for each frame. You have the same 3 frames repeated with the same animation effect for each of those frames. If the slow motion was a technical error then the lightsabres would have been animated differently in every frame to give the slow motion effect, but they aren't , so the way the slow motion happens with frames repeated is intentional and therefore i will not be doing anything to change this effect.
Oops, yeah, sorry, you're right. I don't know why I thought they were different for every frame. My bad...
Didn't you, you know, rotoscope that entire scene a few months ago? ;-)Harmy said:
Oops, yeah, sorry, you're right. I don't know why I thought they were different for every frame. My bad...
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Um, yeah, I might have done... ;-)
adywan said:
If the slow motion was a technical error then the lightsabres would have been animated differently in every frame to give the slow motion effect, but they aren't , so the way the slow motion happens with frames repeated is intentional and therefore i will not be doing anything to change this effect.
As always, it's your baby, but I for one am glad about this decision.
TheBoost said:
adywan said:
If the slow motion was a technical error then the lightsabres would have been animated differently in every frame to give the slow motion effect, but they aren't , so the way the slow motion happens with frames repeated is intentional and therefore i will not be doing anything to change this effect.
As always, it's your baby, but I for one am glad about this decision.
+1
Every 27th customer will get a ball-peen hammer, free!
I'm just glad we can move on :p
Mr Ghostface said:
Bingowings said:
It may be possible to present that scene in a interestingly different way regardless of how well it was originally created.
This is a special edition not a restoration.
I can't speak for the techniques suggested as I'd have to see some examples to make a comparison but I'm not filled with rage by changing a scene in a film that already looks good if it matches ethos of this project (which to make a genuinely special special edition).
Change for change sake is bad but change to make some sort of visual difference which sits better with the other changes in this presentation needn't be based on just technical 'errors' or shortcomings in the original versions of either ESB or the various ESB:SEs.
Isn't this exactly what Lucas gets lambasted for? Considering this is all a matter of personal preference, it's difficult to really criticise Lucas for doing what he wants with his movies when Ady and everyone else is doing exactly the same thing. Your first line in particular encapsulates it for me. Oh, don't get me wrong, I love fan edits, I just don't think the hypocrisy towards Lucas is very fair.
No, Lucas gets lambasted for not releasing the original theatrical versions of the original trilogy and for replacing it with his SE's. Also for using sub-par effects for his SE's which at times cause more continuity errors and other problems than the original version.
Maybe it's different for different people. Before it dawned on everyone that the SEs were going to be Lucas's favoured versions they were still objected to purely on the grounds of "meddling". So I don't think it's just the subsequent "deletion" of the original versions, it's people objecting to the simple act of changing things. Somehow fan editors seem to be immune to that sort of criticism. Don't think for a sec that I'm approving of Lucas's tinkering, but I think in general there's a lack of balance here.
People who object to any changes wouldn't be interested in any of George's SE's or any Fan-Edits.
In short they probably wouldn't be in this section of these forums.
Personally I find making better SEs works in conjunction with calls for the original versions as they both undermine George's assertion that his SEs of the hour are the only versions that should be seen.
This thread isn't really the place for this debate.
Yup, you're right. Good point you make about his SEs "of the hour"... He's like the Meddling Monk but without the evil intent.
Bingowings said:
People who object to any changes wouldn't be interested in any of George's SE's or any Fan-Edits.
In short they probably wouldn't be in this section of these forums.
Personally I find making better SEs works in conjunction with calls for the original versions as they both undermine George's assertion that his SEs of the hour are the only versions that should be seen.
This thread isn't really the place for this debate.
I didn't agree with all of Adywan's changes and i'm still here. Just because i don't agree doesn't mean i don't think these are the best versions of the SW films. He fixed all the errors GL left in.