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So let’s turn schools into fucking prisons instead of addressing the real problem.
Jesus fucking Christ.
considering the size of the campus, normal noise levels, communication, etc.
um, gun fire (unless you are using a silencer and I haven’t heard the nut was) is very, VERY LOUD. It would easily rise above normal noise level. I realize kids are loud, but kids being kids is not the same sound as gunfire and screaming.
I thought there were all sorts of barriers in place and background checks and such for getting a license as well as purchasing the weapon itself. Perhaps I’m not remembering correctly.
I paid about $75 for a lifetime concealed carry permit. They supposedly did a background check and fingerprinted me for it, but it took like two days, so fuck knows how hard they actually looked. On top of that, I was gifted a 1911A1 handgun and was shocked to discover that I don’t have to register it in any way, shape, or form. So if I go out and shoot someone in the head with it, wipe my prints off really well, and ditch the gun, there’s nothing to tie it back to me.
These are serious problems that need to be fixed. So different states have different laws on this stuff? It should definitely have federal regulation if it doesn’t.
If more protections were put in place, the people who have a desire to mutilate other human beings will go to the trouble of acquiring weapons anyway, legally or not.
I’m so fucking sick of hearing this excuse. “They’ll get guns illegally anyway, so why bother?” Fuck everything about that.
Not everything about that. Illegal crap will still be out there. Even if guns were outright banned and confiscated, there would still be an underground gun trade going on. And I don’t take statistics from any other countries as proof to the contrary.
And yes, I know you followed it up with:
It won’t inherently solve the problem, just make it so that it doesn’t occur as often because it’s more difficult for them. Though of course that’s better than nothing.
Yep, that’s better than nothing, but “they’ll get them illegally anyway” is literally the excuse that’s been used for years to do exactly that - nothing. And people keep fucking dying.
I don’t use it as an excuse for anything, though I do think that it is the biggest thing to consider when talking about exactly how to place more control on guns. I think people should be allowed their guns, just with proper federal licensing.
Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.
Well, if we are not going to get rid of the guns, our schools need protection. Maybe not armed teachers, but armed trained police/security guards.
Schools already have police officers in the building. It isn’t working.
Yeah, the “we need armed security guards” argument has been coming up since Columbine. Except Columbine had armed security guards. So did Parkland. Schools are sprawling, public-access facilities. Effectively locking them down against armed attackers would require redesigning the entire facility to operate more like a prison.
And they won’t even fix a leaking roof, so even that unattractive option is unrealistic.
I don’t think it would require redesigning the schools. Just have armed police officers man various positions throughout the school building. Look any attempt to ban guns is getting stopped over and over again by the NRA and conservatives. Having armed police in schools is something that might pass. I don’t see the NRA or conservatives objecting to it. It is not the optimal solution, but maybe one that can pass. Maybe one that can save lives.
Even assuming you manage to avoid incidents like this, you’re talking probably 8 FTE’s per school to adequately cover all the positions in a school, let’s say 100,000 public schools in the nation (are we only talking public? and what about daycares and colleges?), so maybe in the neighborhood of 800,000 FTE’s, each FTE costing maybe an average of 50K. That’s 40 billion dollars for the base model. I can see lots of people objecting.
considering the size of the campus, normal noise levels, communication, etc.
um, gun fire (unless you are using a silencer and I haven’t heard the nut was) is very, VERY LOUD. It would easily rise above normal noise level. I realize kids are loud, but kids being kids is not the same sound as gunfire and screaming.
No, but it does prevent you from hearing reports over the walkie-talkie WHERE the echoing gunfire is actually coming from, how many shooters there are, etc.
So let’s turn schools into fucking prisons instead of addressing the real problem.
Jesus fucking Christ.
If the other side refuses to address the real problem(and I think you agree the Conservatives/Republicans/NRA won’t do that and will block any effort from the left to do that), maybe turning schools in prisons is the only thing left. But I don’t know that have enough armed police officers roaming the hallways equals turning the schools into prisons. It is not like we’d be adding jail cells to schools.
considering the size of the campus, normal noise levels, communication, etc.
um, gun fire (unless you are using a silencer and I haven’t heard the nut was) is very, VERY LOUD. It would easily rise above normal noise level. I realize kids are loud, but kids being kids is not the same sound as gunfire and screaming.
No, but it does prevent you from hearing reports over the walkie-talkie WHERE the echoing gunfire is actually coming from.
I am talking about having enough police so that at least one would heard the gunfire with his own two ears, not through a walkie-talkie. Even with echos, I don’t think it would take too long for trained police officers that are sufficiently spread throughout the school(in sufficient numbers for the size school) to find where the repeated gunfire and screams are coming from.
Well, if we are not going to get rid of the guns, our schools need protection. Maybe not armed teachers, but armed trained police/security guards.
Schools already have police officers in the building. It isn’t working.
Yeah, the “we need armed security guards” argument has been coming up since Columbine. Except Columbine had armed security guards. So did Parkland. Schools are sprawling, public-access facilities. Effectively locking them down against armed attackers would require redesigning the entire facility to operate more like a prison.
And they won’t even fix a leaking roof, so even that unattractive option is unrealistic.
I don’t think it would require redesigning the schools. Just have armed police officers man various positions throughout the school building. Look any attempt to ban guns is getting stopped over and over again by the NRA and conservatives. Having armed police in schools is something that might pass. I don’t see the NRA or conservatives objecting to it. It is not the optimal solution, but maybe one that can pass. Maybe one that can save lives.
Even assuming you manage to avoid incidents like this, you’re talking probably 8 FTE’s per school to adequately cover all the positions in a school, let’s say 100,000 public schools in the nation (are we only talking public? and what about daycares and colleges?), so maybe in the neighborhood of 800,000 FTE’s, each FTE costing maybe an average of 50K. That’s 40 billion dollars for the base model.
it is a lot of money, but if it prevents what happened yesterday . . .
I can see lots of people objecting.
no as many as are objecting to getting rid of the guns.
I don’t use it as an excuse for anything
You might not be, but almost everybody else who says that is absolutely using it to justify inaction. And it’s been working.
Well, if we are not going to get rid of the guns, our schools need protection. Maybe not armed teachers, but armed trained police/security guards.
Schools already have police officers in the building. It isn’t working.
Yeah, the “we need armed security guards” argument has been coming up since Columbine. Except Columbine had armed security guards. So did Parkland. Schools are sprawling, public-access facilities. Effectively locking them down against armed attackers would require redesigning the entire facility to operate more like a prison.
And they won’t even fix a leaking roof, so even that unattractive option is unrealistic.
I don’t think it would require redesigning the schools. Just have armed police officers man various positions throughout the school building. Look any attempt to ban guns is getting stopped over and over again by the NRA and conservatives. Having armed police in schools is something that might pass. I don’t see the NRA or conservatives objecting to it. It is not the optimal solution, but maybe one that can pass. Maybe one that can save lives.
Even assuming you manage to avoid incidents like this
obviously, we would need to have officers especially trained to serve in schools. Also I would want extreme background and all other kinds of checks.
considering the size of the campus, normal noise levels, communication, etc.
um, gun fire (unless you are using a silencer and I haven’t heard the nut was) is very, VERY LOUD. It would easily rise above normal noise level. I realize kids are loud, but kids being kids is not the same sound as gunfire and screaming.
No, but it does prevent you from hearing reports over the walkie-talkie WHERE the echoing gunfire is actually coming from.
I am talking about having enough police so that at least one would heard the gunfire with his own two ears, not through a walkie-talkie. Even with echos, I don’t think it would take too long for trained police officers that are sufficiently spread throughout the school(in sufficient numbers for the size school) to find where the repeated gunfire and screams are coming from.
AFAIK there was one guard. Tracking the source of gunfire in a semi-enclosed concrete echo chamber is a tough enough problem that we build and distribute these to law enforcement. You can’t necessarily follow the screams because people who have fled the scene continue to scream, people at the scene may in fact be to afraid to scream. It’s really not as easy as you think. A walkie-talkie confirmed location and status would be very helpful to any responder.
considering the size of the campus, normal noise levels, communication, etc.
um, gun fire (unless you are using a silencer and I haven’t heard the nut was) is very, VERY LOUD. It would easily rise above normal noise level. I realize kids are loud, but kids being kids is not the same sound as gunfire and screaming.
No, but it does prevent you from hearing reports over the walkie-talkie WHERE the echoing gunfire is actually coming from.
I am talking about having enough police so that at least one would heard the gunfire with his own two ears, not through a walkie-talkie. Even with echos, I don’t think it would take too long for trained police officers that are sufficiently spread throughout the school(in sufficient numbers for the size school) to find where the repeated gunfire and screams are coming from.
AFAIK there was one guard.
one guard for the whole school? I am pretty sure the school in question was a pretty large school with multiple buildings. One guard is not enough for such a school.
Tracking the source of gunfire in a semi-enclosed concrete echo chamber is a tough enough problem that we build and distribute these to law enforcement. You can’t necessarily follow the screams because people fleeing the scene also scream. It’s really not as easy as you think. A walkie-talkie confirmed location and status would be very helpful.
maybe not, but the REPEATED gunfire and screams would give trained officers a general area(and this gunfire_locator would help). Also I would think the screams of people fleeing would sound different from the screams of those getting shot.
There’s also the inherent problem of solving the problems of guns in schools by intentionally putting more guns in the schools. Basically the same thing as with homes: we know that having a gun in your home makes your family less safe, is that also true for schools?
At least it’s somewhat difficult in Illinois. I can’t get a gun for 5 years because I admitted to a doctor that I had suicidal thoughts. I’ve never been convicted of any crime much less a violent one.
And they are right for that too because I would absolutely be dead right now if I could have gotten my hands on a gun.
I know we are talking about homicide and not suicide though and that’s different.
At least it’s somewhat difficult in Illinois. I can’t get a gun for 5 years because I admitted to a doctor that I had suicidal thoughts. I’ve never been convicted of any crime much less a violent one.
And they are right for that too because I would absolutely be dead right now if I could have gotten my hands on a gun.
I know we are talking about homicide and not suicide though and that’s different.
The thing is, when it comes to gun deaths in America, it really is primarily about suicide. Suicide is just so commonplace it rarely makes the news, and given our country’s rates, that’s a shame. I’m glad Illinois managed to do something to help you.
There’s also the inherent problem of solving the problems of guns in schools by intentionally putting more guns in the schools. Basically the same thing as with homes: we know that having a gun in your home makes your family less safe, is that also true for schools?
look all I know is
A: nut comes into school, no one there has a gun: nut kills a lot of kids and teachers
B: nut comes into school with armed guards: nut tries to kill a lot kids and teachers and gets killed in the process. less kids and teachers are dead than would have been.
Also most of people who have guns in their homes aren’t trained police officers.
There’s also the inherent problem of solving the problems of guns in schools by intentionally putting more guns in the schools. Basically the same thing as with homes: we know that having a gun in your home makes your family less safe, is that also true for schools?
look all I know is
A: nut comes into school, no one there has a gun: nut kills a lot of kids and teachers
B: nut comes into school with armed guards: nut tries to kill a lot kids and teachers and gets killed in the process. less kids and teachers are dead than would have been.
Also most of people who have guns in their homes aren’t trained police officers.
C: nut doesn’t have a gun, therefore he doesn’t come into school (and probably just trolls people on the internet to get his “vengeance on society”)
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The “they’ll get the guns anyway even if illegally” argument is nonsense. By that logic, why bother having laws in the first place?
The “they’ll get the guns anyway even if illegally” argument is nonsense. By that logic, why bother having laws in the first place?
Exactly.
There’s also the inherent problem of solving the problems of guns in schools by intentionally putting more guns in the schools. Basically the same thing as with homes: we know that having a gun in your home makes your family less safe, is that also true for schools?
look all I know is
A: nut comes into school, no one there has a gun: nut kills a lot of kids and teachers
B: nut comes into school with armed guards: nut tries to kill a lot kids and teachers and gets killed in the process. less kids and teachers are dead than would have been.
Also most of people who have guns in their homes aren’t trained police officers.
C: Nut comes into the school unarmed, gets weapons from guards. Goes on killing spree he wouldn’t have even considered before he grabbed the gun.
D: Guard goes postal, kills students. Or guards.
Did you follow those links? Trained can be a generous term. Here’s how you do the risk assessment. Scenario A: a gun is in place to prevent crime. Scenario B: No gun is in place to prevent crime. Bad things can happen due to both the gun AND the lack of a gun. With homes, we’ve done the research, and the verdict is in. The bad things due to a gun in scenario A are over 40 times more likely than the bad things due to lack of a gun from scenario B. Therefore, don’t bring a gun into your home if you like your family. Easy so far.
Now I’m not saying schools are the same as homes, or security guards are the same as private citizens, or even that all security guards have lapses like the ones in those articles (but some percentage inevitably will). But presumably the data is already available to research. It would be a shame to spend 40 billion dollars to make our kids more likely to get shot, don’t you think?
EDIT: Why research when my guts says it’s right and it’s an emergency? Well, millions of Americans used their gut feeling to make the wrong call about their home safety because they either don’t know the statistics, or don’t believe the statistics apply to them. Knowing what you’re doing is a good thing when it comes to matters of life and death. If armed guards at a school are 10x less risky than armed homeowners, that still means they’re over 4x riskier than no guards or unarmed guards.
Also do all schools have police officers? Do all schools have armed police officers? Do all schools have enough armed police officers for the size of the school?
My small-town southern Arkansas high school has one, and so does the middle school, but none of the lower schools do AFAIK.
.
The “they’ll get the guns anyway even if illegally” argument is nonsense. By that logic, why bother having laws in the first place?
In many states, as well as federally, smoking pot is illegal. People still do it constantly because they have some sort of access to it illegally. The same applies to pretty much any other product. If there is demand for it, at least a few of those demanding it will get their hands on it somehow.
Any other illegal drug, alcoholic beverages during prohibition, alcoholic beverages to minors today, porn to minors, child porn, etc. is accessible in some way to those who seek it hard enough. The same applies to weapons, especially considering the whole 3D printing situation.
Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.
Some how I’m having a hard time equating it being easy to buy pot with being easy to buy a machine gun. I can buy pot any time. Can I buy a gun as easily? Obviously not I’m still posting
Some how I’m having a hard time equating it being easy to buy pot with being easy to buy a machine gun. I can buy pot any time. Can I buy a gun as easily? Obviously not I’m still posting
Of course it’s more difficult to acquire a gun. A lot more. I never meant to equate the ease of getting this stuff, just saying that it will always be possible as long as people want the stuff.
Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.
3D printing won’t come into play for a few decades at least.
