So I just watched The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises back to back, and I think that if TLJ treated Luke the same way TDKR treats Batman, TLJ Luke would be much more acceptable to me.
For example, at the end of both TLJ and TDKR, the older hero passes on the torch to the pupil, but while in TDKR Batman wins the war and finally provides peace a second time, Luke… just passes on the torch and says “hey boyos, now that I’ve given you guys hope please clean it up!!”
No.
tere are good explanations for most of them anyway.
There are explanations now that we’ve had ages to ponder them. Conversely, the novelization for TLJ isn’t even out yet.
The TFA novel straight up explains how the Starkiller beam could destroy a planet on the other side of the galaxy from where the base itself is located. It just depends on it you want to accept that explanation.
That is to say, you like the movie or you don’t, and that’s your choice. But holding ST and OT up to different yard sticks isn’t exactly fair.
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
tere are good explanations for most of them anyway.
There are explanations now that we’ve had ages to ponder them. Conversely, the novelization for TLJ isn’t even out yet.
The TFA novel straight up explains how the Starkiller beam could destroy a planet on the other side of the galaxy from where the base itself is located. It just depends on it you want to accept that explanation.
That is to say, you like the movie or you don’t, and that’s your choice. But holding ST and OT up to different yard sticks isn’t exactly fair.
I think Wook just tossed out some of the ideas from the top of his head. Or maybe he has spent years pondering them. That would be interesting. I don’t look to the novelizations for anything anyway.
I don’t do novelizations or visual dictionaries, not that I think it should matter to enjoy a film. Starkiller felt like a ridiculous rehash. On numerous levels it just didn’t work for me. You’re right that if one has a desire just about anything could be acceptable. Midi-chlorians, for example, aren’t as bad as some people understood them. But I still find it a terrible concept that broke with how the Force was previously conceived.
The blue elephant in the room.
I have not pondered them for years because those scenes never bothered me.
What I used to ponder were much more mundane matters, such as where are the bathrooms on the Death Star and how do Stormtroopers go in those outfits? Flip up codpieces? 😛
Where were you in '77?
I have not pondered them for years because those scenes never bothered me.
What I used to ponder were much more mundane matters, such as where are the bathrooms on the Death Star and how do Stormtroopers go in those outfits? Flip up codpieces? 😛
You have spent your years on more interesting topics! I never even considered it.
The blue elephant in the room.
I have not pondered them for years because those scenes never bothered me.
What I used to ponder were much more mundane matters, such as where are the bathrooms on the Death Star and how do Stormtroopers go in those outfits? Flip up codpieces? 😛
Could they be like the suits in Dune and filter your pee and poo so you don’t even need to take them off?
It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher
tere are good explanations for most of them anyway.
There are explanations now that we’ve had ages to ponder them. Conversely, the novelization for TLJ isn’t even out yet.
The TFA novel straight up explains how the Starkiller beam could destroy a planet on the other side of the galaxy from where the base itself is located. It just depends on it you want to accept that explanation.
That is to say, you like the movie or you don’t, and that’s your choice. But holding ST and OT up to different yard sticks isn’t exactly fair.
We shouldn’t need novelizations to justify the events of a movie.
But as for different yardsticks, the Death Star was a moon sized space station with essentially a big version of a blaster that could blow up rocky planets. It required the resources of a galaxy-spanning empire to build.
Starkiller Base is a piece of construction many times larger than the Death Star, with a primary weapon requiring seemingly universe-breaking technology that has never been previously hinted at or explained, built by an organization that by all indications is a fraction the size of the Empire.
These are not two yardsticks.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
SilverWook said:
how do Stormtroopers go in those outfits? Flip up codpieces? 😛
Aaannd…Stormtrooper uniforms are ruined. 😉
tere are good explanations for most of them anyway.
There are explanations now that we’ve had ages to ponder them. Conversely, the novelization for TLJ isn’t even out yet.
The TFA novel straight up explains how the Starkiller beam could destroy a planet on the other side of the galaxy from where the base itself is located. It just depends on it you want to accept that explanation.
That is to say, you like the movie or you don’t, and that’s your choice. But holding ST and OT up to different yard sticks isn’t exactly fair.
We shouldn’t need novelizations to justify the events of a movie.
But as for different yardsticks, the Death Star was a moon sized space station with essentially a big version of a blaster that could blow up rocky planets. It required the resources of a galaxy-spanning empire to build.
Starkiller Base is a piece of construction many times larger than the Death Star, with a primary weapon requiring seemingly universe-breaking technology that has never been previously hinted at or explained, built by an organization that by all indications is a fraction the size of the Empire.
These are not two yardsticks.
Iteration is your answer.
The German Empire was defeated in WWI, the Nazi’s “rose from the ashes” and 20 years later the Third Reich invaded Poland and WWII began.
The engineering iteration upon the previous weapons, saw the war machine now employ cannon that could span the English channel, unmanned V2 bombs, U boats, and any number of other more advanced hardware (including ultimately nuclear weapons).
Pretty obvious that the First Order is based upon the hardware of the Empire (TIE Fighters, Star Destroyers, Stormtrooper armour, Starkiller Base, etc), and so iteration is your answer to why they are more advanced.
You do not let the movies tell you a story on their own terms. You want it to be on your terms and are angry and frustrated that it doesn’t work that way. If you were willing to let the films tell their own stories and expand your understanding of the universe as you acquire more information about it, you would be able to accept and enjoy it.
I have to agree with your assessment, though I think your last paragraph is a bit off topic. DrDre was expecting ROTJ hero Luke, not old Mentor Luke. Such a fall is a mythic trope. I don’t know what some others were expecting, but whatever they expected they were disappointed.
I think this is inaccurate and an oversimplification. Time and time again we get these arguments, that us critics didn’t like TLJ, because of expectations and what not. It’s not about wanting hero Luke. It’s about what means are used to achieve what ends. The OT is in part about Luke’s growth as a character. In TLJ Luke has regressed to a deplorable state. Is this problematic in of itself? No, not at all. However, the means by which this was achieved, and to what ends, is what makes TLJ a bad Star Wars film in my view. The means, a sixty second flashback, is far too compressed IMO. It makes Luke’s transition from hero and Jedi to curmudgeon, who abandons his family, friends, and the GFAA at large, just not believable to me. This situation is compounded by the ends, which ultimately amount to a big reset in the Star Wars universe, where an even smaller rebel force has to fight another tyrannical regime, while another new hope has to somehow reinvigorate the Jedi.
So, for me personally deconstructing Luke Skywalker, while jarring, might have been worth the journey, if the franchise really went in an interesting new direction, whilst respecting the underlying themes of the overarching saga as set up by Lucas. However, since the ST for me personally amounts to little more than a reboot, whilst undoing almost everything the OT’s heroes achieved on a personal and macroscopic scale, I just disagree with the idea that the ST films tell their own stories and expand our understanding of the universe. It’s story consists of a mishmash of OT story threads, held together by a plot designed to defy expectations, and to avoid the OT’s resolutions. At the same time it provides very little understanding how and why the GFFA regressed back to the OT’s macrostate, because the film is too preoccupied with pulling the rug from under our feet at almost every turn, in my humble opinion of course.
The ST is like a rollercoaster. There’s fun and excitement to be found around every unexpected twist and turn, but ultimately the journey just leads back to the beginning of the ride, which makes it pretty pointless, if like me you wanted to go places.
Yawn, what a load of tedious waffle.
Dre, you realise that these are movies made to entertain 8 year olds right?
Thank god the ‘deconstructing Luke Skywalker’ imaginary movie you wanted in your head wasn’t made!
I am afraid the simple solution for you Dre is to either walk away from the series, as watching TLJ has appeared to trigger you into hours upon hours of wasted time poured into expressions of regret and bitterness, or to dial down your lofty and unrealistic expectations and enjoy the movie on its own merits - as a film made to entertain 8 year olds.
Yawn, what a load of tedious waffle.
Dre, you realise that these are movies made to entertain 8 year olds right?
Thank god the ‘deconstructing Luke Skywalker’ imaginary movie you wanted in your head wasn’t made!
I am afraid the simple solution for you Dre is to either walk away from the series, as watching TLJ has appeared to trigger you into hours upon hours of wasted time poured into expressions of regret and bitterness, or to dial down your lofty and unrealistic expectations and enjoy the movie on its own merits - as a film made to entertain 8 year olds.
Here we go again…I’ve reported you to the mods, because you simply can’t stop yourself from making things personal.
They say the test of good manners is to be patient with the bad ones, but I’ve lost my patience with yours.
So I just watched The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises back to back, and I think that if TLJ treated Luke the same way TDKR treats Batman, TLJ Luke would be much more acceptable to me.
For example, at the end of both TLJ and TDKR, the older hero passes on the torch to the pupil, but while in TDKR Batman wins the war and finally provides peace a second time, Luke… just passes on the torch and says “hey boyos, now that I’ve given you guys hope please clean it up!!”
No.
I actually really liked the idea. Too bad you didn’t. Care to explain?
By the way, I know it’s extremely different because Batman is the protagonist of TDKR while Luke isn’t the protagonist of TLJ, but I think that approach was still viable if they wanted to.
To repost something from the “What are you reading?” thread:
I recently finished listening to the first 3.5 (three novels and a novella) of the Expeditionary Force series by Craig Alanson. I noticed somewhere that its genre was listed as “space opera”, which supposedly also includes Star Wars. But here’s the thing: The Star Wars films are space opera; the books are not. The last two Star Wars books I’ve tried to read, Darth Plagueis and Battlefront: Twilight Company, are sci-fi drivel with boring plots and uninteresting characters. It’s starting to sour my interest in Star Wars books. I just hope The Last Jedi novelization is good because I’ve already preordered it.
Yeah, as much as everyone loves the Thrawn Trilogy, those were military sci-fi, not space opera. You can thank Zahn for Star Wars books since then continuing this trend.
Turns out I probably wouldn’t have liked an EU-esque Star Wars film, because the EU books employ almost an entirely different genre than the films do.
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
A thing on timelines here: The two main storylines in TLJ start at different times. The escape storyline starts a week after the events of TFA; the Ach-To storyline happens immediately after the events of TFA.
The bomber: People complained about how the bomber thing was unrealistic because there’s no gravity in space. That pedantry is inaccurate. The bombs fell due to the gravitational force of the Star Destroyer underneath the bomber. This is the same reason that Star Destroyer falls into the Death Star in ROTJ.
I read in the visual dictionary that the bombs used magnetic tech as well.
Yes, and that is unnecessary. The artificial gravity within the bomber is enough to give the bombs an initial velocity once they are released to propel them towards the target, as Mrebo already pointed it out.
That’s how real space works, but Star Wars space is special. Star Wars spaceships apparently need to keep their engines/boosters on at all times just like airplanes. If “initial velocity” was a thing in Star Wars then spaceships would only need engines for accelerating and turning. Maybe there’s some kind of air in Star Wars space that creates resistance. The force is supposedly all around, so maybe even the vacuum of space is filled with midichlorians, eh? 😉
And we have to assume that initial velocity isn’t a thing or some plot holes would pop up. If the bombs didn’t use magnetism and could rely on initial velocity then the bombers could be much further away to reduce risk of being attacked. And ships wouldn’t have to worry as much about fuel which is a big plot point in TLJ. In a space chase in zero gravity and zero resistance it would still be beneficial to keep the engines running, but this would lead to constantly increasing speeds which doesn’t seem to be what’s happening.
Midichlorian “air” resistance is going to be my head canon now (“that’s not how the force works!”), but it’s probably best to not worry too much about Star Wars physics.
You do not let the movies tell you a story on their own terms. You want it to be on your terms and are angry and frustrated that it doesn’t work that way. If you were willing to let the films tell their own stories and expand your understanding of the universe as you acquire more information about it, you would be able to accept and enjoy it.
I have to agree with your assessment, though I think your last paragraph is a bit off topic. DrDre was expecting ROTJ hero Luke, not old Mentor Luke. Such a fall is a mythic trope. I don’t know what some others were expecting, but whatever they expected they were disappointed.
I think this is inaccurate and an oversimplification. Time and time again we get these arguments, that us critics didn’t like TLJ, because of expectations and what not. It’s not about wanting hero Luke. It’s about what means are used to achieve what ends. The OT is in part about Luke’s growth as a character. In TLJ Luke has regressed to a deplorable state. Is this problematic in of itself? No, not at all. However, the means by which this was achieved, and to what ends, is what makes TLJ a bad Star Wars film in my view. The means, a sixty second flashback, is far too compressed IMO. It makes Luke’s transition from hero and Jedi to curmudgeon, who abandons his family, friends, and the GFAA at large, just not believable to me. This situation is compounded by the ends, which ultimately amount to a big reset in the Star Wars universe, where an even smaller rebel force has to fight another tyrannical regime, while another new hope has to somehow reinvigorate the Jedi.
So, for me personally deconstructing Luke Skywalker, while jarring, might have been worth the journey, if the franchise really went in an interesting new direction, whilst respecting the underlying themes of the overarching saga as set up by Lucas. However, since the ST for me personally amounts to little more than a reboot, whilst undoing almost everything the OT’s heroes achieved on a personal and macroscopic scale, I just disagree with the idea that the ST films tell their own stories and expand our understanding of the universe. It’s story consists of a mishmash of OT story threads, held together by a plot designed to defy expectations, and to avoid the OT’s resolutions. At the same time it provides very little understanding how and why the GFFA regressed back to the OT’s macrostate, because the film is too preoccupied with pulling the rug from under our feet at almost every turn, in my humble opinion of course.
The ST is like a rollercoaster. There’s fun and excitement to be found around every unexpected twist and turn, but ultimately the journey just leads back to the beginning of the ride, which makes it pretty pointless, if like me you wanted to go places.
Yes, that was oversimplified. But it is clear you had expectations and that you didn’t like where things went and that you didn’t really find the film engaging. But the thing I have problems with is because of that you have created a conspiracy theory that this was done deliberately to reboot the series and piss off long-time fans. There is not foundation or evidence for that. Rian Johnson made what he felt was the right middle chapter of the trilogy to grow the characters and set things up for the final episode. He wrote it before TFA came out and before fans spent two years building things up about things he didn’t consider important. And as proof that he did not do what you claim, I, a 1977 fan who saw the original film 10 times before July 1979 and has seen every film in the theaters and bought the home video versions, do find his story to be very well done and to fit perfectly with the OT. Right now I consider TLJ and Rogue One to be tied for fourth place of all time best Star Wars films. I loved it. So, far from disappointing me or pissing me off, he met my expectations, which was to get a good story that furthered the characters and universe. But, regardless of the other aspects of your feelings on TLJ, it is clear you had expectations that colored your interpretation and enjoyment of the film. People are entitled to have expectations and not enjoy films based on that (even a trailer can give people expectations), but I feel that you need to keep expectations to a minimum and just try to enjoy it for what it is. That was my philosophy for the prequels and now the sequels. I has been my philosophy on Star Trek and Doctor Who as well. So far Star Trek is the only one to truly disappoint me.
What if he had no expectations and the movie was an unpleasant surprise?
You do not let the movies tell you a story on their own terms. You want it to be on your terms and are angry and frustrated that it doesn’t work that way. If you were willing to let the films tell their own stories and expand your understanding of the universe as you acquire more information about it, you would be able to accept and enjoy it.
I have to agree with your assessment, though I think your last paragraph is a bit off topic. DrDre was expecting ROTJ hero Luke, not old Mentor Luke. Such a fall is a mythic trope. I don’t know what some others were expecting, but whatever they expected they were disappointed.
I think this is inaccurate and an oversimplification. Time and time again we get these arguments, that us critics didn’t like TLJ, because of expectations and what not. It’s not about wanting hero Luke. It’s about what means are used to achieve what ends. The OT is in part about Luke’s growth as a character. In TLJ Luke has regressed to a deplorable state. Is this problematic in of itself? No, not at all. However, the means by which this was achieved, and to what ends, is what makes TLJ a bad Star Wars film in my view. The means, a sixty second flashback, is far too compressed IMO. It makes Luke’s transition from hero and Jedi to curmudgeon, who abandons his family, friends, and the GFAA at large, just not believable to me. This situation is compounded by the ends, which ultimately amount to a big reset in the Star Wars universe, where an even smaller rebel force has to fight another tyrannical regime, while another new hope has to somehow reinvigorate the Jedi.
So, for me personally deconstructing Luke Skywalker, while jarring, might have been worth the journey, if the franchise really went in an interesting new direction, whilst respecting the underlying themes of the overarching saga as set up by Lucas. However, since the ST for me personally amounts to little more than a reboot, whilst undoing almost everything the OT’s heroes achieved on a personal and macroscopic scale, I just disagree with the idea that the ST films tell their own stories and expand our understanding of the universe. It’s story consists of a mishmash of OT story threads, held together by a plot designed to defy expectations, and to avoid the OT’s resolutions. At the same time it provides very little understanding how and why the GFFA regressed back to the OT’s macrostate, because the film is too preoccupied with pulling the rug from under our feet at almost every turn, in my humble opinion of course.
The ST is like a rollercoaster. There’s fun and excitement to be found around every unexpected twist and turn, but ultimately the journey just leads back to the beginning of the ride, which makes it pretty pointless, if like me you wanted to go places.
Yes, that was oversimplified. But it is clear you had expectations and that you didn’t like where things went and that you didn’t really find the film engaging. But the thing I have problems with is because of that you have created a conspiracy theory that this was done deliberately to reboot the series and piss off long-time fans.
I have never said it was done to piss off long term fans. Star Wars is a brand, and the Empire versus rebels conflict is closely connected to that brand, just like the lightsabers, the Force, stormtroopers etc. So, rather than take a big risk and really tell a different story, that could be viewed by many as not really being Star Wars, because it doesn´t have some sort of Sith Lord, a fallen Jedi apprentice, stormtroopers, Star Destroyers, a tiny band of rebels led by a young Jedi wannabe, etc. , they took the safe route and ensured that the ST still adhered to a slightly modernized OT aesthetic, and remained beholden to the basic Empire vs rebels/Jedi vs Sith premise. The fact that a group of fans are pissed off, or in most cases simply disappointed, is just a side effect of that deliberate choice.
The expectations thing is too often overstated. Of course there were expectations. Who here doesn’t have expectations about Star Wars? If someone didn’t like the movie, saying expectations were not met, well, that should go without saying. Same for those who like the movie, expectations were met. That doesn’t mean the expectations on either side were very specific.
The blue elephant in the room.
tere are good explanations for most of them anyway.
There are explanations now that we’ve had ages to ponder them. Conversely, the novelization for TLJ isn’t even out yet.
The TFA novel straight up explains how the Starkiller beam could destroy a planet on the other side of the galaxy from where the base itself is located. It just depends on it you want to accept that explanation.
That is to say, you like the movie or you don’t, and that’s your choice. But holding ST and OT up to different yard sticks isn’t exactly fair.
We shouldn’t need novelizations to justify the events of a movie.
But as for different yardsticks, the Death Star was a moon sized space station with essentially a big version of a blaster that could blow up rocky planets. It required the resources of a galaxy-spanning empire to build.
Starkiller Base is a piece of construction many times larger than the Death Star, with a primary weapon requiring seemingly universe-breaking technology that has never been previously hinted at or explained, built by an organization that by all indications is a fraction the size of the Empire.
These are not two yardsticks.
Iteration is your answer.
The German Empire was defeated in WWI, the Nazi’s “rose from the ashes” and 20 years later the Third Reich invaded Poland and WWII began.
The engineering iteration upon the previous weapons, saw the war machine now employ cannon that could span the English channel, unmanned V2 bombs, U boats, and any number of other more advanced hardware (including ultimately nuclear weapons).
Pretty obvious that the First Order is based upon the hardware of the Empire (TIE Fighters, Star Destroyers, Stormtrooper armour, Starkiller Base, etc), and so iteration is your answer to why they are more advanced.
But that still doesn’t answer the question of why they were able to build a far more ambitious project with far less resources. If we saw that they used a robotic workforce and had a lot of automation for their fleet it would make sense, but we get no indication that it’s different from the Empire in this regard. Hux even says that it’s a machine ‘that you have built’. Yet another missed opportunity if you ask me.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
tere are good explanations for most of them anyway.
There are explanations now that we’ve had ages to ponder them. Conversely, the novelization for TLJ isn’t even out yet.
The TFA novel straight up explains how the Starkiller beam could destroy a planet on the other side of the galaxy from where the base itself is located. It just depends on it you want to accept that explanation.
That is to say, you like the movie or you don’t, and that’s your choice. But holding ST and OT up to different yard sticks isn’t exactly fair.
We shouldn’t need novelizations to justify the events of a movie.
But as for different yardsticks, the Death Star was a moon sized space station with essentially a big version of a blaster that could blow up rocky planets. It required the resources of a galaxy-spanning empire to build.
Starkiller Base is a piece of construction many times larger than the Death Star, with a primary weapon requiring seemingly universe-breaking technology that has never been previously hinted at or explained, built by an organization that by all indications is a fraction the size of the Empire.
These are not two yardsticks.
Iteration is your answer.
The German Empire was defeated in WWI, the Nazi’s “rose from the ashes” and 20 years later the Third Reich invaded Poland and WWII began.
The engineering iteration upon the previous weapons, saw the war machine now employ cannon that could span the English channel, unmanned V2 bombs, U boats, and any number of other more advanced hardware (including ultimately nuclear weapons).
Pretty obvious that the First Order is based upon the hardware of the Empire (TIE Fighters, Star Destroyers, Stormtrooper armour, Starkiller Base, etc), and so iteration is your answer to why they are more advanced.
But that still doesn’t answer the question of why they were able to build a far more ambitious project with far less resources. If we saw that they used a robotic workforce and had a lot of automation for their fleet it would make sense, but we get no indication that it’s different from the Empire in this regard. Hux even says that it’s a machine ‘that you have built’. Yet another missed opportunity if you ask me.
Well, how did the Empire do it? They built two huge battlestations in secret. The First order built a superweapon on a small planet. Not quite the same level of construction required. the weapon is more powerful, but the setup is not larger. And we see this one fleet. How many fleets does Snoke have? How many fleets did the Empire have? We see and increase in the technology, but we don’t really see a larger force. The Empire had to dominate the galaxy and keep the rebels at bay. The First Order destroyed the Republic capital and fleet (one fleet in one system, but evidently all the Republic thought it needed) so they don’t need the huge resources the Empire had to have the fleet and ships we see. When you move beyond the movies, the Empire was massive and there is no indication the First Order is anywhere near that big.
tere are good explanations for most of them anyway.
There are explanations now that we’ve had ages to ponder them. Conversely, the novelization for TLJ isn’t even out yet.
The TFA novel straight up explains how the Starkiller beam could destroy a planet on the other side of the galaxy from where the base itself is located. It just depends on it you want to accept that explanation.
That is to say, you like the movie or you don’t, and that’s your choice. But holding ST and OT up to different yard sticks isn’t exactly fair.
We shouldn’t need novelizations to justify the events of a movie.
But as for different yardsticks, the Death Star was a moon sized space station with essentially a big version of a blaster that could blow up rocky planets. It required the resources of a galaxy-spanning empire to build.
Starkiller Base is a piece of construction many times larger than the Death Star, with a primary weapon requiring seemingly universe-breaking technology that has never been previously hinted at or explained, built by an organization that by all indications is a fraction the size of the Empire.
These are not two yardsticks.
Iteration is your answer.
The German Empire was defeated in WWI, the Nazi’s “rose from the ashes” and 20 years later the Third Reich invaded Poland and WWII began.
The engineering iteration upon the previous weapons, saw the war machine now employ cannon that could span the English channel, unmanned V2 bombs, U boats, and any number of other more advanced hardware (including ultimately nuclear weapons).
Pretty obvious that the First Order is based upon the hardware of the Empire (TIE Fighters, Star Destroyers, Stormtrooper armour, Starkiller Base, etc), and so iteration is your answer to why they are more advanced.
But that still doesn’t answer the question of why they were able to build a far more ambitious project with far less resources. If we saw that they used a robotic workforce and had a lot of automation for their fleet it would make sense, but we get no indication that it’s different from the Empire in this regard. Hux even says that it’s a machine ‘that you have built’. Yet another missed opportunity if you ask me.
Well, how did the Empire do it? They built two huge battlestations in secret. The First order built a superweapon on a small planet. Not quite the same level of construction required. the weapon is more powerful, but the setup is not larger. And we see this one fleet. How many fleets does Snoke have? How many fleets did the Empire have? We see and increase in the technology, but we don’t really see a larger force. The Empire had to dominate the galaxy and keep the rebels at bay. The First Order destroyed the Republic capital and fleet (one fleet in one system, but evidently all the Republic thought it needed) so they don’t need the huge resources the Empire had to have the fleet and ships we see. When you move beyond the movies, the Empire was massive and there is no indication the First Order is anywhere near that big.
There’s no indication period. That’s the issue. We have to assume the Republic fleet was obliterated. We have to assume the destruction of Starkiller base, and all it’s equipment, and personel didn’t cripple the FO, much like the attack on the Republic capital system apparently crippled the New Republic. There’s just no frame of reference. There’s only the opening crawl and a few lines of dialogue, and those seem to suggest the FO is overruning the galaxy, implausible as that may be, while by the end of TLJ there’s a rebellion so small, that it fits into the Millenium Falcon.
tere are good explanations for most of them anyway.
There are explanations now that we’ve had ages to ponder them. Conversely, the novelization for TLJ isn’t even out yet.
The TFA novel straight up explains how the Starkiller beam could destroy a planet on the other side of the galaxy from where the base itself is located. It just depends on it you want to accept that explanation.
That is to say, you like the movie or you don’t, and that’s your choice. But holding ST and OT up to different yard sticks isn’t exactly fair.
We shouldn’t need novelizations to justify the events of a movie.
But as for different yardsticks, the Death Star was a moon sized space station with essentially a big version of a blaster that could blow up rocky planets. It required the resources of a galaxy-spanning empire to build.
Starkiller Base is a piece of construction many times larger than the Death Star, with a primary weapon requiring seemingly universe-breaking technology that has never been previously hinted at or explained, built by an organization that by all indications is a fraction the size of the Empire.
These are not two yardsticks.
Iteration is your answer.
The German Empire was defeated in WWI, the Nazi’s “rose from the ashes” and 20 years later the Third Reich invaded Poland and WWII began.
The engineering iteration upon the previous weapons, saw the war machine now employ cannon that could span the English channel, unmanned V2 bombs, U boats, and any number of other more advanced hardware (including ultimately nuclear weapons).
Pretty obvious that the First Order is based upon the hardware of the Empire (TIE Fighters, Star Destroyers, Stormtrooper armour, Starkiller Base, etc), and so iteration is your answer to why they are more advanced.
But that still doesn’t answer the question of why they were able to build a far more ambitious project with far less resources. If we saw that they used a robotic workforce and had a lot of automation for their fleet it would make sense, but we get no indication that it’s different from the Empire in this regard. Hux even says that it’s a machine ‘that you have built’. Yet another missed opportunity if you ask me.
Well, how did the Empire do it? They built two huge battlestations in secret. The First order built a superweapon on a small planet. Not quite the same level of construction required. the weapon is more powerful, but the setup is not larger. And we see this one fleet. How many fleets does Snoke have? How many fleets did the Empire have? We see and increase in the technology, but we don’t really see a larger force. The Empire had to dominate the galaxy and keep the rebels at bay. The First Order destroyed the Republic capital and fleet (one fleet in one system, but evidently all the Republic thought it needed) so they don’t need the huge resources the Empire had to have the fleet and ships we see. When you move beyond the movies, the Empire was massive and there is no indication the First Order is anywhere near that big.
All the elaborate explanations in the galaxy won’t make up for what I saw on the screen. If we go down this route, I think creating something with the power to devour and emit stars is a construction project inordinately greater than the Death Star. There is also the need to move the planet. And the planet has hyperdrive? (Now that is funny.)
The blue elephant in the room.
I’m with Dre in not getting a sense of the state of affairs in the galaxy and being put off by that.
The blue elephant in the room.
Isn’t that a TFA issue? Several of the inconsistencies and “plot holes” listed here apply to TFA too.