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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 172

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Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

We don’t need to have everything explained by the film. There are other non-film sources with which to draw on for relevant information to people who would care.

Those other sources aren’t canon.

Actually, yeah, they are. Unless they were published before the Legends EU rebranding.

I am pretty sure the novels are not canon. If they are, explain the differences between the novels and the movies.

The novels are canon - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon#2014_reboot

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_canon_books#js

well dialogue in the novelizations of the movies better match with the movies word for word or you’ve inconsistency. If the dialogue differs what did the character say, what is written in the book or what is said in the movie?

example ROTJ

in the book the Emperor says “Your puerile skills are no match for the power of the dark side”

in the movie the Emperor says “You feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side”

yet both sources are canon. So which did the emperor say?

I believe Pablo said everything is canon except for what directly conflicts with the movies. If the movie dialogue differs from the novel dialogue, the movie’s dialogue would be canon; that said, a whole book can not be discounted as “non-canon” just because of one disparity. An explanation of how a force ability works will almost certainly be canon.

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adywan said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

SilverWook said:

Warbler said:

SilverWook said:

I thought Yoda was just guiding the lightning not creating it.

sure looked like he created it to me.

Big difference between manipulating the weather to create lighting and firing it out of your fingertips. It’s been suggested in the past Yoda used the Force to make sure Luke crashed in just the right spot on Dagobah. That was some choppy weather he hit coming into the atmosphere.

I don’t think he just manipulated the weather.

And yet he did. There is a wide shot where you see the storm clouds above the island and you can see the lightning coming out of the clouds around the island and not just the bolt that strikes the tree. Have you seen the film just the once? Because it seems like you just missed that bit, but you’re refusing to listen to people that have seen the film multiple times or noticed what was happening.

I’ll be glad when the blu-ray comes out so we can post screenshots.

there is nothing in the movie that says force ghosts require storm clouds to bring down lightening.

You mean apart from the fact that the lightning emanated from the storm clouds and not just magically appeared from thin air or from a cloudless sky? That’s a visual explanation right there. Yoda manipulates the weather.

maybe.

**sigh

If people don’t want me sighing anymore, no one else should sigh either.

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ok, I give up. think whatever you want. I can’t continue to argue against so many. I’m done.

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Warbler said:

dahmage said:

Warbler said:

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

  1. the minor interaction with surroundings we see in ROTJ don’t matter near as much as finding out that force ghost Obiwan and Yoda maybe could have appeared before the Emperor and Vader and zapped them.

But Yoda didn’t just zap the tree out of thin air like the force lighting the Emperor uses. This has already been explained to you.

Whatever you want to call it, it sure would have been nice if had used it on the Emperor in ROTJ after Yoda died.

Please point me to the scene in the Emperors throne room where there were storm clouds over head so we could have had the same lightning and then i’d agree with you.

He needs storm clouds? That is never explained. What if in a future movie a force user does it without storm clouds, then can I ask why force ghost Yoda doesn’t zap the Emperor in ROTJ?

The fact that there are storm clouds coming in overhead and the lightning comes from those clouds that we clearly see in the film, isn’t enough to explain where the lightning comes from? What more did you need? Ric Olie suddenly popping his head from behind a rock to explain where it came from? 😉

We are talking about the force here, he doesn’t necessarily need storm clouds.

Says who? Where is this explained in a movie?

the movie never said he required storm clouds. For all know, he doesn’t need them.

Do you even know what point you’re trying to make now cuz I certainly don’t anymore.

when it me verses so many people? maybe I don’t what point I am trying to make anymore.

It is not you vs. so many people. You refuse to accept any explanation outside of the film itself. That is your own choice. You find inconsistencies because you choose to leave them inconsistent rather than include supplementary sources.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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TV’s Frink said:

Val if you truly feel people are still harassing and attacking you, you should probably just report it. I don’t think it will get you far, since I don’t see it in the slightest, but that’s probably more likely to do something than just complaining about it here.

I did not say anyone was attacking me, but the fact that you and Dominic have to chime in with off topic jabs after each time I post something new in discussing what I don’t like about the movie is starting to wear a bit thin and I do feel harassed so please stop it.

Not only are you taking pot shots at me simply for posting my particular opinion on the movie, they are generally off topic or really only serve to belittle my opinion and usually generate a page or two of other members then following up with further off topic comments. What it leads to is a burying of the discussion I am trying to have on the matter which is not appreciated, especially seeing that I don’t to it to you or other people commenting positively on the movie, instead trying to reasonably relay why I may not agree on a particular view or point being made.

Val

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Valheru_84 said:

dahmage said:

Oh cool, ignore what Mark Hamill says today, and keep posting what he said yesterday. Cherry picking.

What did he say today? Got a link? I watch a fair few videos (too many according to Frink) and read plenty of articles as I find them but I haven’t seen and heard everything. However whatever he did say, I don’t see how it would nullify what he plainly says here and in one go. The video is not cut together, it’s one full section of an interview.

So I’m still waiting for that link after you accused me of cherry picking? One way or the other would you mind substantiating your claim, otherwise please revoke that accusation.

Val

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Valheru_84 said:

Valheru_84 said:

dahmage said:

Oh cool, ignore what Mark Hamill says today, and keep posting what he said yesterday. Cherry picking.

What did he say today? Got a link? I watch a fair few videos (too many according to Frink) and read plenty of articles as I find them but I haven’t seen and heard everything. However whatever he did say, I don’t see how it would nullify what he plainly says here and in one go. The video is not cut together, it’s one full section of an interview.

So I’m still waiting for that link after you accused me of cherry picking? One way or the other would you mind substantiating your claim, otherwise please revoke that accusation.

Val

Well you did sort of cherry pick what mark was talking about in the video you posted to try and prove your point. For one, that was still an edited video where they only fade in as he is half way through talking ( it should be noted that the video was posted by a youtube user called Jar Jar Abrahms, a user that hates the Disney SW films). You focus on mark saying how he disagreed with how his character is in TLJ in videos, how he "should actually be commended for cleverly telling people how badly written his character is without openly saying it ", yet fail to mention that, in that same video you posted, he is talking about how he doesn’t like being out of his comfort zone. And how it was important for the story and how he came to realise that. Then you go on to say that it was a negative thing when he says that the new trilogy wasn’t all planned out, like that was a bad thing, yet fail to point out that he was wrong when he was talking about how the OT was all planned out.

As for what he said recently, this is one of his tweets:

"I regret voicing my doubts & insecurities in public.Creative differences are a common element of any project but usually remain private. All I wanted was to make good movie. I got more than that- @rianjohnson made an all-time GREAT one! "

And this is a comment he made over 7 months ago:

"I was quoted as saying to Rian that I fundamentally disagree with everything you decided about Luke, and it was inartfully phrased. What I was, was surprised at how he saw Luke. And it took me a while to get around to his way of thinking, but once I was there it was a thrilling experience. I hope it will be for the audience too…

Rian Johnson is an amazing filmmaker. And if you look at Brick, or Brothers Bloom, or Looper, each film is different from the last one and they’re so inventive. And I think people will be really pleased and surprised, I know I was."

Most of the videos being branded around are cherry picked, edited pieces to try and prove that mark hated the film, when in fact he did not. It just makes a good story to present things that way and gains clicks. They omit the times he said, prior to the films release, that he said positive things about how Rian handled his character and how his insecurities were just because of the way he saw Luke and not necessarily how he should be portrayed for the story to progress. Now, even when the original full interviews come to light and Mark comes right out and makes things clear, he just gets accused of being forced to say that by Disney. You can take snippets from almost anything to prove a point. It doesn’t mean its correct.

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA

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Warbler said:

ok, I give up. think whatever you want. I can’t continue to argue against so many. I’m done.

I’ve read your entire exchange and I think you just painted yourself into a corner. My 2 cents is that trying to find the kind of consistency you’re expecting would only be slightly possible if all the SW movies were shot consecutively in a short period of time with the same actors, writers, director etc.

Look at the Alien franchise…prequel movies all have higher tech ships and weapons…same as SW to a degree. It has nothing to do with consistency but not wanting to do a period film for what are in large part effects flicks.

I understand to a degree with regards to your POV but what your asking for is just not going to happen in any series that I know of…perhaps others can prove me wrong?

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adywan said:

Warbler said:

In ESB, Obiwan says that if Luke goes to face Vader he will face him alone, “I can not help you”. But look what Yoda did in TLJ. Sure seems like Obiwan could have lent a hand now.

And don’t forget Obi-Wan’s line in ANH: “If you strike me down, i shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.” . Up until TLJ, the most we see a force ghost being able to do is interact with their surroundings by moving some twigs and sitting in a log. A force ghost being able to use that power has been there since day one.

Oh Ady, you know that if the Yoda scene wasn’t in TLJ it wouldn’t even be in question if a force ghost blew something up is absurd or not.

That is literally the line that something has to cross in order to become surreal: before the movie, would that be plausible? If so, ok. If not, then that’s a no. Kylo stopping laser shot mid air? Badass and believable. Yoda blowing it all up? Not so much. Luke projecting himself? Fuck yeah. Leia coming back from the dead? Not so much. These are my standards anyway.

I repeat, these are my standards.

But ask yourself this question. Would you think it’s plausible for that (given thing) to happen, if it was only a hypothetical idea, before executed in the movie?

And about the Obi-Wan line to Vader, a line that could be compared to that is “we are what they grow beyond”, and that Obi-Wan would become a martyr and someone to whom Luke would look up to, eventually resulting in the fall of the Empire.

Mrebo said:

Collipso said:

Mrebo said:

Collipso, as you saw above I have some of the same questions. If there are supposed to be deeper themes and meaningful character arcs, they should become richer upon inspection, or at least not fall apart. Unless this was the intention, to show that stuff happens and nobody can see the future, nobody is necessarily right or wrong. This plays into the idea that TJL is a nihilist work - something I haven’t been convinced on.

However, RJ may be focused on the ethics of decisions, whatever the morality or practical result. This would at least accord with his treatment of the light vs dark side, I think.

Yeah but I don’t think that simply the ethics of the decisions is a good enough reason to sacrifice basically all the lore and understanding that we previously had and was previously established of the force, how it works and the training to become a powerful force user, etc.

I agree…but if I’m right about what RJ was doing, he came at the project with a wholly different orientatation from which he doesn’t see a conflict, or at least not a meaningful conflict. From that kind of view, telling a story of good vs evil is flat and facile. By making the story a question of ethics, it is automatically more complex. It is like adding a third dimension, rather than creating a conflict - so long as you view it from that third dimension.

To illustrate, consider Yoda’s line that “we are what they grow beyond.” It’s not blatantly at odds with any particular line in the OT. But it is a different point of view from looking beyond this crude matter and to the Force. In that line, I see the same kind of focus on ethical behavior that others can carry on rather than moral choices which allow becoming one with the Force.

I can agree with this.

EDIT: so after reading through the thread since my last post, I guess it comes down to your interpretation. One can interpret what Obi-Wan said in a way, and others naturally in others. I too, like Warb, thought Yoda had created the lighting out of thin air. It’s not something I really have a problem with anyway, just a huge 6 page discussion over a minor nitpick. Then again, this is the Star Wars fan base.

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adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

Valheru_84 said:

dahmage said:

Oh cool, ignore what Mark Hamill says today, and keep posting what he said yesterday. Cherry picking.

What did he say today? Got a link? I watch a fair few videos (too many according to Frink) and read plenty of articles as I find them but I haven’t seen and heard everything. However whatever he did say, I don’t see how it would nullify what he plainly says here and in one go. The video is not cut together, it’s one full section of an interview.

So I’m still waiting for that link after you accused me of cherry picking? One way or the other would you mind substantiating your claim, otherwise please revoke that accusation.

Val

Well you did … prove your point. that was a bad thing, … he was wrong

As for what he said recently, this is one of his tweets:

"I regret … any project … that- @rianjohnson made …! "

see!

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Valheru_84 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Val if you truly feel people are still harassing and attacking you, you should probably just report it. I don’t think it will get you far, since I don’t see it in the slightest, but that’s probably more likely to do something than just complaining about it here.

I did not say anyone was attacking me, but the fact that you and Dominic have to chime in with off topic jabs after each time I post something new in discussing what I don’t like about the movie is starting to wear a bit thin and I do feel harassed so please stop it.

This is not the first time you’ve called me out for something I haven’t done. Instead of stooping to your level, this time I’ve just decided to report you.

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Collipso said:

EDIT: so after reading through the thread since my last post, I guess it comes down to your interpretation. One can interpret what Obi-Wan said in a way, and others naturally in others. I too, like Warb, thought Yoda had created the lighting out of thin air. It’s not something I really have a problem with anyway, just a huge 6 page discussion over a minor nitpick. Then again, this is the Star Wars fan base.

I don’t know how you can say he conjured it out of thin air when the movie makes it a point to show it coming from storm clouds. You can’t just ignore something that’s right there in the movie.

As for how this has blown into a huge discussion, well let’s not forget about Luke force choking, at least this debate is on topic!

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Valheru_84 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Val if you truly feel people are still harassing and attacking you, you should probably just report it. I don’t think it will get you far, since I don’t see it in the slightest, but that’s probably more likely to do something than just complaining about it here.

I did not say anyone was attacking me, but the fact that you and Dominic have to chime in with off topic jabs after each time I post something new in discussing what I don’t like about the movie is starting to wear a bit thin and I do feel harassed so please stop it.

Not only are you taking pot shots at me simply for posting my particular opinion on the movie, they are generally off topic or really only serve to belittle my opinion and usually generate a page or two of other members then following up with further off topic comments. What it leads to is a burying of the discussion I am trying to have on the matter which is not appreciated, especially seeing that I don’t to it to you or other people commenting positively on the movie, instead trying to reasonably relay why I may not agree on a particular view or point being made.

Val

As I said before, feel free to report it.

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DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

EDIT: so after reading through the thread since my last post, I guess it comes down to your interpretation. One can interpret what Obi-Wan said in a way, and others naturally in others. I too, like Warb, thought Yoda had created the lighting out of thin air. It’s not something I really have a problem with anyway, just a huge 6 page discussion over a minor nitpick. Then again, this is the Star Wars fan base.

I don’t know how you can say he conjured it out of thin air when the movie makes it a point to show it coming from storm clouds. You can’t just ignore something that’s right there in the movie.

As for how this has blown into a huge discussion, well let’s not forget about Luke force choking, at least this debate is on topic!

I recommend that someone makes a new thread that is limited to the force choking or not force choking of the pigmen and the weather lightning or force lightning of the tree. No other topics will be allowed.

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DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

EDIT: so after reading through the thread since my last post, I guess it comes down to your interpretation. One can interpret what Obi-Wan said in a way, and others naturally in others. I too, like Warb, thought Yoda had created the lighting out of thin air. It’s not something I really have a problem with anyway, just a huge 6 page discussion over a minor nitpick. Then again, this is the Star Wars fan base.

I don’t know how you can say he conjured it out of thin air when the movie makes it a point to show it coming from storm clouds. You can’t just ignore something that’s right there in the movie.

As for how this has blown into a huge discussion, well let’s not forget about Luke force choking, at least this debate is on topic!

My mistake then. Guess I need to pay more attention to that when it comes to home video or even maybe a third viewing in theaters.

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TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

EDIT: so after reading through the thread since my last post, I guess it comes down to your interpretation. One can interpret what Obi-Wan said in a way, and others naturally in others. I too, like Warb, thought Yoda had created the lighting out of thin air. It’s not something I really have a problem with anyway, just a huge 6 page discussion over a minor nitpick. Then again, this is the Star Wars fan base.

I don’t know how you can say he conjured it out of thin air when the movie makes it a point to show it coming from storm clouds. You can’t just ignore something that’s right there in the movie.

As for how this has blown into a huge discussion, well let’s not forget about Luke force choking, at least this debate is on topic!

I recommend that someone makes a new thread that is limited to the force choking or not force choking of the pigmen and the weather lightning or force lightning of the tree. No other topics will be allowed.

I think we could sneak in some discussion of whether Kylo or Rey won on Starkiller.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

EDIT: so after reading through the thread since my last post, I guess it comes down to your interpretation. One can interpret what Obi-Wan said in a way, and others naturally in others. I too, like Warb, thought Yoda had created the lighting out of thin air. It’s not something I really have a problem with anyway, just a huge 6 page discussion over a minor nitpick. Then again, this is the Star Wars fan base.

I don’t know how you can say he conjured it out of thin air when the movie makes it a point to show it coming from storm clouds. You can’t just ignore something that’s right there in the movie.

As for how this has blown into a huge discussion, well let’s not forget about Luke force choking, at least this debate is on topic!

I recommend that someone makes a new thread that is limited to the force choking or not force choking of the pigmen and the weather lightning or force lightning of the tree. No other topics will be allowed.

I think we could sneak in some discussion of whether Kylo or Rey won on Starkiller.

I’m sorry but these types of threads are limited to two topics only.

If we end up with a fourth one then a second thread may be made.

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DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Val if you truly feel people are still harassing and attacking you, you should probably just report it. I don’t think it will get you far, since I don’t see it in the slightest, but that’s probably more likely to do something than just complaining about it here.

I did not say anyone was attacking me, but the fact that you and Dominic have to chime in with off topic jabs after each time I post something new in discussing what I don’t like about the movie is starting to wear a bit thin and I do feel harassed so please stop it.

This is not the first time you’ve called me out for something I haven’t done. Instead of stooping to your level, this time I’ve just decided to report you.

What a load of bull. There are 3 posts in particular that you made after my own posts that are indirect but distinctively antagonising which I’ve already reported you for. I’m sure this will now be settled via mod PM and hopefully its the end of it.

TV’s Frink said:

Valheru_84 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Val if you truly feel people are still harassing and attacking you, you should probably just report it. I don’t think it will get you far, since I don’t see it in the slightest, but that’s probably more likely to do something than just complaining about it here.

I did not say anyone was attacking me, but the fact that you and Dominic have to chime in with off topic jabs after each time I post something new in discussing what I don’t like about the movie is starting to wear a bit thin and I do feel harassed so please stop it.

Not only are you taking pot shots at me simply for posting my particular opinion on the movie, they are generally off topic or really only serve to belittle my opinion and usually generate a page or two of other members then following up with further off topic comments. What it leads to is a burying of the discussion I am trying to have on the matter which is not appreciated, especially seeing that I don’t to it to you or other people commenting positively on the movie, instead trying to reasonably relay why I may not agree on a particular view or point being made.

Val

As I said before, feel free to report it.

I will and I have, though not for any of yours currently. I feel you’re the more reasonable out of the two of you and would rather try and settle it via talk. Not going to bother with Dom though, despite asking him to reign it in he couldn’t help himself and had to have another jab which is when the report button was clicked.

Val

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For what it’s worth, I’ll just say that when I watched the movie, Yoda lighting the tree on fire, however he did it, worked for me.

As to how he did it, I assume since that it was already a stormy day, Yoda was able to redirect whatever he needed to in the sky. Seems simple enough to explain to me.

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I imagine that dying gives a person a great deal of perspective on things, so that when one would normally interfere with the events of the galaxy instead there’s a case of extreme passivity and letting things be. Yoda didn’t destroy anything except a rotting stump, and only because he knew that Luke needed to get beyond his hatred of Jedi dogma. He probably didn’t even change history, since Luke was about to burn it down anyway.

It was little more than a mischievous trick, totally in keeping with the slightly crazy second most powerful Jedi in the galaxy.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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NeverarGreat said:

I imagine that dying gives a person a great deal of perspective on things, so that when one would normally interfere with the events of the galaxy instead there’s a case of extreme passivity and letting things be. Yoda didn’t destroy anything except a rotting stump, and only because he knew that Luke needed to get beyond his hatred of Jedi dogma. It was little more than a mischievous trick, totally in keeping with the slightly crazy second most powerful Jedi in the galaxy.

And then we go back full circle again. Why did Luke even adopt the Jedi doctrine in the first place? Did he even know about it? If he had access to so much history and knew that it had failed, why attempt it? He was trained in a very different way and turned out to be the greatest Jedi of all time. Why would he go back to the stupid prequel way of being a Jedi? (That was meant to be stupid from day 1 of the PT) Sigh.

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What parent hasn’t said ‘I’m going to raise my kids far better than my parents did me’, and then go on to fall back on the only thing they know. And I’d argue Luke wasn’t trained in a different way - he was trained by two very conventional Jedi. His atypical behavior in ROTJ was in spite of his mentors, not because of them.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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Yeah, Obi-Wan and Yoda didn’t think there was still good in Vader. Luke did. And Luke was right.

I think proving his mentors wrong in ROTJ is the seed for where we find Luke in TLJ. Not the prequels.

Aside from a reference to Sidious, the prequel dogma is barely touched on in TLJ. The root of Luke’s disillusionment isn’t in celibacy, and the repression of emotion, humanity, or attachment. Nor in anything political. It’s in the idea that it’s “too late” for anyone. That’s straight out of ROTJ for me. It just wasn’t explored until this one.

Andor: The Rogue One Arc