Ranking the Star Wars films — Page 111

MaximRecoil said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey’s marksmanship is a perfect example of the sexist bullshit that is the Mary Sue argument. Think how common it is in movies (not just Star Wars) that a guy picks up a gun for the first time and his aim and ability is never questioned. Yet they go out of their way to show that Rey isn’t perfect with a blaster but people call it out anyway.

Name some examples. I want examples where it is established that the character has never fired a gun before, and takes place in a story where a similar established character misses a lot, even though it shows that he already owns a gun.

MaximRecoil said:

TV’s Frink said:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

Mary Sue is a derogatory term

Oh.

It is not “derogatory” in the sense that you used the term; you claimed it was misogynistic. It isn’t.

yhwx said:

Er… there kind of is. At least in Western culture, there’s a tendency to shun women who are perceived to “do it all,” without perceived difficulty. It does not matter if the term came from an actual character; it’s still a product of the sexist culture that we live in. Culture does not exist in a vacuum.

Possessed said:

I bet you and impscum would hit it off great.

MaximRecoil said:

yhwx said:

No, not having it.

It doesn’t matter whether you’re “having it” or not; it doesn’t change the facts whatsoever.

TV’s Frink said:

NeverarGreat said:

TV’s Frink said:

I have heard many men call female characters a Mary Sue. The only time I’ve ever heard anyone call someone a Gary Stu is in a sad desperate attempt to defend their use of Mary Sue.

I previously linked to a good example of the term in use, but here are some pull quotes from the reviews for your reading pleasure:

Ok, now I’ve heard it once.

If you can show me that Mary Sue isn’t used far more often than Gary Stu, I’d love to see it.

I’m not a miracle worker 😉

MaximRecoil said:

TV’s Frink said:
If you can show me that Mary Sue isn’t used far more often than Gary Stu, I’d love to see it.

Mary Sue is used far more often, because Mary Sue is usually used to refer to characters of either sex. Once again:

A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. Sometimes, the name is reserved only for women, but more often the name is used for both sexes. A male can also be referred to as a Gary Stu, but more commonly either sex is called a Mary Sue. [2][3]

It is just the name of a trope. The sex of the character is not part of the definition, which is why the most famous Mary Sue prior to Rey was Wesley Crusher from Star Trek: TNG.

I don’t freaking care whether it’s a part of the “official” definition, it still has an inheriently mysogonist quality around, even if people don’t realize that (which may be caused by further sexism). It’s still a product of our sexist culture.

There are plenty of terms that started out as one thing and were distorted over time to be derogatory towards a certain race or sex. Mary Sue is one of those.

"Mary-Sue
A sexist term used to enforce the misogynistic ideals that female characters/authors shouldn’t be allowed to fantasize or write anything along the lines of wish fulfillment. Its misogynistic qualities are exemplified in many ways, most notably being the fact that it’s not a term dominated by the male counterpart despite existing in a patriarchal society, as well as the fact that the male counterpart is largely undecided upon in name and also undefined (see urban dictionary’s Gary Stu entry which has no definition but to say “A Male Mary Sue”, and the Marty-Stu entry which involves the “Mary Sue” definition to define it).

It’s usually used on the whole to bully new authors out of writing female characters altogether, making the task seem so daunting to some that they now only write slash fictions with two male characters, also exemplifying the misogynistic qualities this term involves."

MaximRecoil said:

yhwx said:
I don’t freaking care whether it’s a part of the “official” definition, it still has an inheriently mysogonist quality around, even if people don’t realize that (which may be caused by further sexism). It’s still a product of our sexist culture.

So noting that Wesley Crusher was a Mary Sue, is “inherently misogynistic”? How does that work? You realize that Wesley Crusher was a male character, right? Your mere assertion holds no water. It is simply the name of a type of character.

You keep saying that. I’m sure it’ll become true if you say it enough times.

By the way, the person who wrote the parody featuring the character for which the trope was subsequently named, is a woman (Paula Smith), which means the most famous person to mock the type of character now known as a Mary Sue, is a woman. I suppose she’s “misogynistic” too?

Women can be misogynistic too. It’s to a far less greater extent than men, but it still happens.

MaximRecoil said:

adywan said:

There are plenty of terms that started out as one thing and were distorted over time to be derogatory towards a certain race or sex. Mary Sue is one of those.

"Mary-Sue
A sexist term used to enforce the misogynistic ideals that female characters/authors shouldn’t be allowed to fantasize or write anything along the lines of wish fulfillment. Its misogynistic qualities are exemplified in many ways, most notably being the fact that it’s not a term dominated by the male counterpart despite existing in a patriarchal society, as well as the fact that the male counterpart is largely undecided upon in name and also undefined (see urban dictionary’s Gary Stu entry which has no definition but to say “A Male Mary Sue”, and the Marty-Stu entry which involves the “Mary Sue” definition to define it).

It’s usually used on the whole to bully new authors out of writing female characters altogether, making the task seem so daunting to some that they now only write slash fictions with two male characters, also exemplifying the misogynistic qualities this term involves."

You’re citing Urban Dictionary? Anyone can write absolutely anything on there and it remains forever. There is no oversight or rules whatsoever. I could write an Urban Dictionary entry that says Mary Sue is the name of my plumber’s great-aunt.

Well, you cited Wikipedia…

And yes, before you “well actually” me, I know there are rules on Wikipedia, but an unmaintained Wikipedia page can have tons of misinformation on it. The people editing and managing Wikipedia are also a compounding factor here too.

The fact that Wesley Crusher was the most famous Mary Sue in mainstream fiction prior to Rey negates your assertions anyway (and negates the assertions of whoever wrote that Urban Dictionary entry).

No.

TV’s Frink said:

Possessed said:

I bet you and impscum would hit it off great.

Sorry Possessed, but actually he’d be best buds with twooffour.

MaximRecoil said:

Your mere assertion holds no water.

twooffour said:

Um, seriously, no.

This sentiment is completely arbitrary, and it holds no water.
What is a musical arrangement? A remake of a musical piece… into another musical piece.

I don’t need my Hamelin Campanella rearrangement as some film score to a SpongeBob cartoon for it to be valid, or pass for “respectful”, thank you very much.

Remakes can be done in different ways, you can attempt to copy it shot for shot (which, I think, went horribly wrong with Psycho, even though I’ve only seen bits of the remake), or, you can take the plot and ideas, and remake as something new.
Put it in another setting (like, maybe one more suited for the modern day, or something else), tweak around the details, and essentially make a movie that “could’ve turned out, had they made different decisions”. And that form of “imitation” has all the justification you need.

So no, dismissed.
This thread would make more sense as a “good remakes vs. bad remakes”, to which I’d reply, I don’t vividly remember any original / remake right now 😄

Lol, nice comparison.

MaximRecoil said:

No.

Your mere gainsaying is dismissed.

imperialscum said:

Frink, you just got dismissed again.