I absolutely love The Force Awakens and I honestly wouldn’t change a single thing about it. TFA was exactly what Star Wars needed. It is the perfect mix of old and new.
I think TFA is really good but I would have changed a few things here and there, mainly Starkiller Base. I liked the scenes that were set there, I just wish it could have been a normal evil lair instead of another Death Star.
It sure would be nice if we could discuss Rey’s character without pulling out the tired misogynistic term “Mary Sue.”
I don’t think the term is misogynistic, since it was originally designed to apply to fanfic at a time when (according to TV Tropes) most of it was written by female authors.
If anyone wants to know the specific traits of the prototypical Mary Sue, here’s a detailed breakdown:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CommonMarySueTraits
Here’s my score, based on this detailed list:
Personality: 1.5/8
I give her half a point each for All-Loving Hero, Dark and Troubled Past, and Informed Flaws.
Skills: 4/6
(Singing Voice and Sex are NA) Half a point each for Inexplicable Skills, Better than the Canon Characters (which are portrayed in the film), Unrealistic Skills, and Fashion Sense (since she never really becomes disheveled like Luke). A full point for No envy and Several Languages.
Physical Appearance: 2/9
(NA for Purple Prose, Maintaining Body, and Non-Human) Half a point for Unusual Hair, Physical Activity, Never Look Ugly, and Faceclaims (though not entirely applicable).
Accessories: 2/2
(NA for Web, Music Player, and Pet) Full point each for one-of-a-kind weapon and Cool and Expensive Transport (The Falcon is legendary).
Canon Character Relationships: 2/6
(NA for Related to Caonon Character, since it is unknown at this point) Half point each for Cure All Angst That Ails Him, More Heed than Normal, Change in Reaction to Her, and Special Treatment (why does she get to captain the Falcon instead of Chewie?).
Story Elements: 2.5/12
(NA for Spotlight Stealing, Same Age as Author, Ethnicity of Author, and Heroic Sacrifice)
Half point each for Chosen One, Blithe Spirit, and Never Does Wrong. Full point for Tragic Family Life.
Names: 2/8
Full point each for Meaningful Name and Reference to Celestial Body.
Presentation: 0/2
(NA for everything except Visual Media and Honestly Speaking about Her)
Author Investment in the Character: NA
Final Score: 16/47
After this exhaustive analysis, I deem Rey to have several Mary Sue characteristics, but to be ultimately innocent of the charge.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
Haha don’t think I’ve ever seen that done before in this conversation. Good job? I guess? I feel like I could probably nitpick some of those but whatevs.
I wish the debate would die. With the Mary Sue thing, I feel like I’ve said this waaay too many times, but the thing is that with the term there are misogynistic implications. Hypothetically that kind of criticism could be thrown against characters of any gender, but they rarely do. When people specifically mention her gender when talking about how implausible her abilities are, that’s when the unfortunate implications become clear.
Ultimately, the term is just downright lazy. If people actually had well reasoned and thought out arguments about Rey’s characterization and how it affected the story/drama, I’d be more willing to engage with them. But if they’re just going to skip to name calling, that’s where I’ll brush them aside. If you’re just going to regurgitate something someone else has said on the internet, there’s no point in wasting my time.
Haha don’t think I’ve ever seen that done before in this conversation. Good job? I guess?
I wish the debate would die. With the Mary Sue thing, I feel like I’ve said this waaay too many times, but the thing is that with the term there are misogynistic implications. Hypothetically that kind of criticism could be thrown against characters of any gender, but they rarely do. When people specifically mention her gender when talking about how implausible her abilities are, that’s when the unfortunate implications become clear.
Ultimately, the term is just downright lazy. If people actually had well reasoned and thought out arguments about Rey’s characterization and how it affected the story/drama, I’d be more willing to engage with them. But if they’re just going to skip to name calling, that’s where I’ll brush them aside. If you’re just going to regurgitate something someone else has said on the internet, there’s no point in wasting my time.
Mary Sue in this instance is usually less “I have an issue with women” and more “shorthand for the numerous times she does things without earning them, perhaps in comparison to Luke”.
For instance, Luke had to see Kenobi do a mind trick- Rey somehow just knows the technique. Luke had Kenobi tell him to use the force in the trench run- Rey just gets a power-up in the forest by closing her eyes and remembering the force- both Luke and Rey had people tell the them about the force earlier in the movie (Kenobi and orange Yoda), but only Rey somehow just remembered the sage’s words and level’d up.
etc.
I’d rather not repeat arguments I’ve had here ad naseum, but I’ll say there’s only one egregious use of abilities from Rey, and that’s the mind trick. Using the force in the duel is easily explained. Maz’s words were specifically that the force has always been there in her and if she closes her eyes she can feel it.
But then again you called Maz “orange Yoda” so I don’t know why I’m bothering.
I’d rather not repeat arguments I’ve had here ad naseum, but I’ll say there’s only one egregious use of abilities from Rey, and that’s the mind trick. Using the force in the duel is easily explained. Maz’s words were specifically that the force has always been there in her and if she closes her eyes she can feel it.
But then again you called Maz “orange Yoda” so I don’t know why I’m bothering.
I mean, they make a point to one up Yoda by saying she’s not 900 years old, no, she’s 1000 years old.
And she’s a little knee high thing, and she’s wise.
I’d rather not repeat arguments I’ve had here ad naseum, but I’ll say there’s only one egregious use of abilities from Rey, and that’s the mind trick. Using the force in the duel is easily explained. Maz’s words were specifically that the force has always been there in her and if she closes her eyes she can feel it.
But then again you called Maz “orange Yoda” so I don’t know why I’m bothering.
I mean, they make a point to one up Yoda by saying she’s not 900 years old, no, she’s 1000 years old.
And she’s a little knee high thing, and she’s wise.
Oh sorry, didn’t realize that made them the exact same character. By that logic, at least 50% of all SW characters are rehashes of each other.
In an odd bit of coincidence, just saw this article posted today:
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/04/25/for-the-last-time-rey-is-not-a-mary-sue
Haven’t read it yet but with a headline like that, must be good.
I’d rather not repeat arguments I’ve had here ad naseum, but I’ll say there’s only one egregious use of abilities from Rey, and that’s the mind trick. Using the force in the duel is easily explained. Maz’s words were specifically that the force has always been there in her and if she closes her eyes she can feel it.
But then again you called Maz “orange Yoda” so I don’t know why I’m bothering.
I mean, they make a point to one up Yoda by saying she’s not 900 years old, no, she’s 1000 years old.
And she’s a little knee high thing, and she’s wise.Oh sorry, didn’t realize that made them the exact same character. By that logic, at least 50% of all SW characters are rehashes of each other.
What is a joke?
Obviously she is not literally "Yoda, but orange."
BUT, she is used as a plot device for the for a similar purpose. She tells Rey about the force. And as I said, she’s about as old as Yoda, she is also dimunitive, and she is also wise.
In an odd bit of coincidence, just saw this article posted today:
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/04/25/for-the-last-time-rey-is-not-a-mary-sueHaven’t read it yet but with a headline like that, must be good.
That article isn’t very convincing, as it tries to make a false equivalence with Luke’s much less one man journey in ANH.
Oh sorry, didn’t realize that made them the exact same character. By that logic, at least 50% of all SW characters are rehashes of each other.
Nah, not all SW… just TFA.
真実
I’d rather not repeat arguments I’ve had here ad naseum
Which is why I’m not going to waste time arguing with anyone that doesn’t think Mary Sue carries misogynistic connotations, intended or not. I will just point out they’re wrong and move along until the next time it’s brought up again.
I’d rather not repeat arguments I’ve had here ad naseum
I will just point out they’re wrong
From a certain point of view.
I’d rather not repeat arguments I’ve had here ad naseum, but I’ll say there’s only one egregious use of abilities from Rey, and that’s the mind trick. Using the force in the duel is easily explained. Maz’s words were specifically that the force has always been there in her and if she closes her eyes she can feel it.
But then again you called Maz “orange Yoda” so I don’t know why I’m bothering.
I mean, they make a point to one up Yoda by saying she’s not 900 years old, no, she’s 1000 years old.
And she’s a little knee high thing, and she’s wise.Oh sorry, didn’t realize that made them the exact same character. By that logic, at least 50% of all SW characters are rehashes of each other.
What is a joke?
Obviously she is not literally "Yoda, but orange."
BUT, she is used as a plot device for the for a similar purpose. She tells Rey about the force. And as I said, she’s about as old as Yoda, she is also dimunitive, and she is also wise.
Again, I don’t know why I bothered. Joke or not, you’re still making a lame and really strained comparison. Just to poke one whole in, how is Yoda not “Obi-Wan, but small and green”?
They did a terrible job of handling Phasma… that’s for sure. The whole lowering the shield thing was stupid.
I’d rather not repeat arguments I’ve had here ad naseum, but I’ll say there’s only one egregious use of abilities from Rey, and that’s the mind trick. Using the force in the duel is easily explained. Maz’s words were specifically that the force has always been there in her and if she closes her eyes she can feel it.
But then again you called Maz “orange Yoda” so I don’t know why I’m bothering.
I mean, they make a point to one up Yoda by saying she’s not 900 years old, no, she’s 1000 years old.
And she’s a little knee high thing, and she’s wise.Oh sorry, didn’t realize that made them the exact same character. By that logic, at least 50% of all SW characters are rehashes of each other.
What is a joke?
Obviously she is not literally "Yoda, but orange."
BUT, she is used as a plot device for the for a similar purpose. She tells Rey about the force. And as I said, she’s about as old as Yoda, she is also dimunitive, and she is also wise.Again, I don’t know why I bothered. Joke or not, you’re still making a lame and really strained comparison. Just to poke one whole in, how is Yoda not “Obi-Wan, but small and green”?
Because my comparison was about both appearance and characteristics.
Again, I don’t know why I bothered.
Instead of posting this question here several times, I suggest you take five minutes and ask that question yourself instead. Then make a decision whether you can ignore the fact that TFA is shit or you will continue to bother people who state that fact.
真実
I’d rather not repeat arguments I’ve had here ad naseum
I will just point out they’re wrong
From a certain point of view.
Sure, one that lacks empathy or context or understanding, but sure.
I’d rather not repeat arguments I’ve had here ad naseum
I will just point out they’re wrong
From a certain point of view.
Sure, one that lacks empathy or context or understanding, but sure.
I disagree with your assessment.
I’d rather not repeat arguments I’ve had here ad naseum, but I’ll say there’s only one egregious use of abilities from Rey, and that’s the mind trick. Using the force in the duel is easily explained. Maz’s words were specifically that the force has always been there in her and if she closes her eyes she can feel it.
But then again you called Maz “orange Yoda” so I don’t know why I’m bothering.
I mean, they make a point to one up Yoda by saying she’s not 900 years old, no, she’s 1000 years old.
And she’s a little knee high thing, and she’s wise.Oh sorry, didn’t realize that made them the exact same character. By that logic, at least 50% of all SW characters are rehashes of each other.
What is a joke?
Obviously she is not literally "Yoda, but orange."
BUT, she is used as a plot device for the for a similar purpose. She tells Rey about the force. And as I said, she’s about as old as Yoda, she is also dimunitive, and she is also wise.Again, I don’t know why I bothered. Joke or not, you’re still making a lame and really strained comparison. Just to poke one whole in, how is Yoda not “Obi-Wan, but small and green”?
Because my comparison was about both appearance and characteristics.
I can see there’s no helping you.
Again, I don’t know why I bothered.
Instead of posting this question here several times, I suggest you take five minutes and ask that question yourself instead. Then make a decision whether you can ignore the fact that TFA is shit or you will continue to bother people who state that fact.
Ironic as you post for the millionth time your worthless opinion on the film.
I’d rather not repeat arguments I’ve had here ad naseum, but I’ll say there’s only one egregious use of abilities from Rey, and that’s the mind trick. Using the force in the duel is easily explained. Maz’s words were specifically that the force has always been there in her and if she closes her eyes she can feel it.
But then again you called Maz “orange Yoda” so I don’t know why I’m bothering.
I mean, they make a point to one up Yoda by saying she’s not 900 years old, no, she’s 1000 years old.
And she’s a little knee high thing, and she’s wise.Oh sorry, didn’t realize that made them the exact same character. By that logic, at least 50% of all SW characters are rehashes of each other.
What is a joke?
Obviously she is not literally "Yoda, but orange."
BUT, she is used as a plot device for the for a similar purpose. She tells Rey about the force. And as I said, she’s about as old as Yoda, she is also dimunitive, and she is also wise.Again, I don’t know why I bothered. Joke or not, you’re still making a lame and really strained comparison. Just to poke one whole in, how is Yoda not “Obi-Wan, but small and green”?
Because my comparison was about both appearance and characteristics.
I can see there’s no helping you.
touché
Again, I don’t know why I bothered.
Instead of posting this question here several times, I suggest you take five minutes and ask that question yourself instead. Then make a decision whether you can ignore the fact that TFA is shit or you will continue to bother people who state that fact.
Ironic as you post for the millionth time your worthless opinion on the film.
You mean his worthless facts. He doesn’t have opinions.
A small child is somehow the only human who can pilot a podracer, no problem. The same child somehow is ably to fly a combat mission and destroy an entire base ship, no problem. Luke also becomes a combat pilot with no combat training, no problem. Rey pilots the Millennium Falcon through the interior of a ship that she has been scavenging throughout for years and all of a sudden that is impossible.
Somehow it’s a problem when Rey, who has spent her entire young adult life literally fighting for survival with a melee weapon is able to defeat Kylo, who himself has incomplete training and is emotionally disturbed having just killed his own father and has also been shot by Chewbacca’s bowcaster, a weapon that has been shown to send stormtroopers flying.
Rey was able to do a mind trick without even seeing it done or being trained regarding it, but she did experience Kylo reading her thoughts, so she isn’t entirely unfamiliar with the idea of manipulating with someone’s mind.
I don’t see that Rey does anything out of the ordinary. She is a pretty awesome character and I can;t wait to see what happens to her, Finn, Poe, and Kylo in the next one.
A small child is somehow the only human who can pilot a podracer, no problem. The same child somehow is ably to fly a combat mission and destroy an entire base ship, no problem.
I think Rey is a great character and have no problem with her abilities, but using a Prequel argument isn’t the strongest argument.
Rey was able to do a mind trick without even seeing it done or being trained regarding it, but she did experience Kylo reading her thoughts, so she isn’t entirely unfamiliar with the idea of manipulating with someone’s mind.
This is the thing that bugs me, and it’s because of the execution - we don’t see her thought process at all. I came to this conclusion as well, but I shouldn’t have to mentally edit the film for them.
Honestly R2 magically coming alive is the biggest face palm in the movie to me. I don’t get it and I don’t like whole the map thing.