TFA: A Gentle Restructure (Released) — Page 31

Earlier in the thread there was discussion about recording some dialogue concerning the Republic in the briefing scene, but I managed to pull together Snap’s dialogue from the deleted scenes:

https://mega.nz/#!eQMnQKQT!uOsHaLgMhedn5yoVDB-QUIcBDPU1qXQsu2L5fil89rA

Audio effects only:

https://mega.nz/#!6McC3TjQ!DguCEiOFuZnVC8XBk9NBqnWOG3t-ppwAl89X0A6w8oA

The nice thing about this edit is that the length of the scene is unchanged.
What does everyone think?

That’s a very not bad idea! It’s not completely seamless, but it might be worth it for the gains. It’s so hard to gauge it since we’re already so familiar with the source and aren’t the hypothetical first-time audience.

The only video of Snap talking in this scene is before the Starkiller is projected, so I wouldn’t know how to incorporate that. And I actually slowed Snap’s dialogue down a bit, but it still seems fast.

I’ll see what I can do to improve it. The issue, like you say, is that we have an idea of how the scene should play, and we’re conditioned to accept the lack of any mention of the Republic even though it should be addressed during this scene.

JEDIT:
Here is an updated scene with further slowed Snap speech and only the single reaction shot:

https://mega.nz/#!yctFSDhS!dqhRxznCFMjVburVoXxlrZ8qu7XnEELPCU7uonr9zfU

Voice Only:

https://mega.nz/#!3AdDnaJK!wCRH1IBlsX3EUIyn0Plvyz4IiIi4aAy9ixAFTpOjwac

One thing that bothers me is that a chunk of the map is all that is missing. It would be better, originally, if the map were complete but the part BB8 is before aomeone Erased the planet from the archives. Much like Kalas recently did on Rebels.

If I had a map of Maryland but a chunk in the middle were missing, it would be a lot easier to figure out where someone is.

Hardcore Legend said:

One thing that bothers me is that a chunk of the map is all that is missing. It would be better, originally, if the map were complete but the part BB8 is before someone Erased the planet from the archives. Much like Kalas recently did on Rebels.

If I had a map of Maryland but a chunk in the middle were missing, it would be a lot easier to figure out where someone is.

I suppose the answer to that would be that even a small section of a galaxy is still hundreds if not thousands of stars. Also, even if the Resistance knew exactly where Luke was in the missing section, without the map and his route it would be far too dangerous to try and chart a course through what is essentially uncharted space. As Han said, ‘Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that would end your trip real quick’.

Now a bigger question is whether the First Order had the full charted map, or if this was a section mysteriously kept blank by the Empire. Perhaps they just never got around to charting it? The questions compound.

MalàStrana said:

NeverarGreat said:

The only video of Snap talking in this scene is before the Starkiller is projected, so I wouldn’t know how to incorporate that. And I actually slowed Snap’s dialogue down a bit, but it still seems fast.

I’ll see what I can do to improve it. The issue, like you say, is that we have an idea of how the scene should play, and we’re conditioned to accept the lack of any mention of the Republic even though it should be addressed during this scene.

JEDIT:
Here is an updated scene with further slowed Snap speech and only the single reaction shot:

https://mega.nz/#!yctFSDhS!dqhRxznCFMjVburVoXxlrZ8qu7XnEELPCU7uonr9zfU

Voice Only:

https://mega.nz/#!3AdDnaJK!wCRH1IBlsX3EUIyn0Plvyz4IiIi4aAy9ixAFTpOjwac

The only issue is the mix which is not seemless. And that we don’t get to see the guy talking (but I don’t really mind it I must say). The idea is good.

I don’t know what else I can do to the audio, so if anyone else wants to try, by all means 😃

I’ll take a gander at the mix later tonight.

NeverarGreat said:

Hardcore Legend said:

One thing that bothers me is that a chunk of the map is all that is missing. It would be better, originally, if the map were complete but the part BB8 is before someone Erased the planet from the archives. Much like Kalas recently did on Rebels.

If I had a map of Maryland but a chunk in the middle were missing, it would be a lot easier to figure out where someone is.

I suppose the answer to that would be that even a small section of a galaxy is still hundreds if not thousands of stars. Also, even if the Resistance knew exactly where Luke was in the missing section, without the map and his route it would be far too dangerous to try and chart a course through what is essentially uncharted space. As Han said, ‘Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that would end your trip real quick’.

Now a bigger question is whether the First Order had the full charted map, or if this was a section mysteriously kept blank by the Empire. Perhaps they just never got around to charting it? The questions compound.

Right, my point is that unless the Empire/First Order was missing that piece of charted space, they would have a starting off point to find Luke. The ‘jigsaw’ narrows it down considerably from the entire galaxy.

Not only that, but I have to imagine that the Empire wasn’t the only people with a chart of that section of space.

^Kylo says that ‘we have the rest - recovered from the archives of the Empire but we need the final piece.’ That would imply that they don’t have that piece.

Getting back to the larger edit, I was thinking about how to solve the issue of the Starkiller’s absence from the first half of the film and how exactly it functions. One solution could be to have Kylo receive a vision about the weapon when he’s asking Vader to show him the power of the Dark Side, to ‘finish what you started’. Right after he says that, it could cut to the shot of the Starkiller beam lancing past the Star Destroyer, then the next two shots in the sequence of Kylo on the Star Destroyer. Perhaps end it with the final section of the planet explosion. Then there is the shot of Vader’s helmet.

This somewhat explains the Starkiller’s function earlier than even the original film, and creates an expectation in the audience of a catastrophic event that plays out in a similar, but not identical, fashion in the end, since always in motion is the future 😉. It also mirrors Rey’s vision and further links the two characters thematically. Finally, it allows us to use every single Starkiller firing shot, which are quite lovely in my opinion.

I was also considering an alteration to the Hosnian Destruction (Sorry, it’s a compulsion). Anyway, there might be a more simple fix for the destruction than the one currently in the edit. Han’s death can stay as it is in the original, complete with Leia reaction, except that the brief cutaway scene directly after where they explain that the Oscillator has been damaged but not destroyed can be moved to after Poe wrecks the Oscillator from within (the 2 minute warning would be cut). Similarly, Hux’s brief cutaway where they say that it will be charged in 30 seconds would be moved to after Poe says ‘There’s a brand new hole in that Oscillator’, so that 30 seconds elapse during the trench run and interior attack.

So here’s a possible sequence:

Han’s Death and Leia’s Reaction

Forest Fight Part 1

Atmospheric Dogfight

Hux’s 30 Second Countdown - ‘Prepare to fire’

Trench Run and Bombing

Damaged but Not Destroyed - panicked look of two technicians, one of which says ‘Admiral, the weapon…’, and doomed look from final technician as the panel behind him flashes red)

Hosnian Destruction - perhaps with the added shot of the laser going past the Star Destroyer, sans Star Destroyer, to make the destruction sequence less abrupt

Leia - The shot (flipped and color adjusted darker) where she is leaning against the viewscreen at the end of the film, right before 3PO arrives with good news. She could be listening to the static of a Hosnian transmission cut short. Only the end of this shot needs be used in the later scene, to reduce the similarity.

Destruction of Oscillator - presumably from stress on the weapon system.

Forest Fight Part 2

In this sequence, the trench run still has a purpose outside of revenge, and we conclude the X-wing sequence before the Starkiller fires, allowing for our undivided attention afterwards to be on Kylo and Rey. The connection between the Republic and Leia is also emphasized, since she gets a reaction shot to both Han’s and the Republic’s destruction.

NeverarGreat said:

^Kylo says that ‘we have the rest - recovered from the archives of the Empire but we need the final piece.’ That would imply that they don’t have that piece.

Getting back to the larger edit, I was thinking about how to solve the issue of the Starkiller’s absence from the first half of the film and how exactly it functions. One solution could be to have Kylo receive a vision about the weapon when he’s asking Vader to show him the power of the Dark Side, to ‘finish what you started’. Right after he says that, it could cut to the shot of the Starkiller beam lancing past the Star Destroyer, then the next two shots in the sequence of Kylo on the Star Destroyer. Perhaps end it with the final section of the planet explosion. Then there is the shot of Vader’s helmet.

This somewhat explains the Starkiller’s function earlier than even the original film, and creates an expectation in the audience of a catastrophic event that plays out in a similar, but not identical, fashion in the end, since always in motion is the future 😉. It also mirrors Rey’s vision and further links the two characters thematically. Finally, it allows us to use every single Starkiller firing shot, which are quite lovely in my opinion.

I was also considering an alteration to the Hosnian Destruction (Sorry, it’s a compulsion). Anyway, there might be a more simple fix for the destruction than the one currently in the edit. Han’s death can stay as it is in the original, complete with Leia reaction, except that the brief cutaway scene directly after where they explain that the Oscillator has been damaged but not destroyed can be moved to after Poe wrecks the Oscillator from within (the 2 minute warning would be cut). Similarly, Hux’s brief cutaway where they say that it will be charged in 30 seconds would be moved to after Poe says ‘There’s a brand new hole in that Oscillator’, so that 30 seconds elapse during the trench run and interior attack.

So here’s a possible sequence:

Han’s Death and Leia’s Reaction

Forest Fight Part 1

Atmospheric Dogfight

Hux’s 30 Second Countdown - ‘Prepare to fire’

Trench Run and Bombing

Damaged but Not Destroyed - panicked look of two technicians, one of which says ‘Admiral, the weapon…’, and doomed look from final technician as the panel behind him flashes red)

Hosnian Destruction - perhaps with the added shot of the laser going past the Star Destroyer, sans Star Destroyer, to make the destruction sequence less abrupt

Leia - The shot (flipped and color adjusted darker) where she is leaning against the viewscreen at the end of the film, right before 3PO arrives with good news. She could be listening to the static of a Hosnian transmission cut short. Only the end of this shot needs be used in the later scene, to reduce the similarity.

Destruction of Oscillator - presumably from stress on the weapon system.

Forest Fight Part 2

In this sequence, the trench run still has a purpose outside of revenge, and we conclude the X-wing sequence before the Starkiller fires, allowing for our undivided attention afterwards to be on Kylo and Rey. The connection between the Republic and Leia is also emphasized, since she gets a reaction shot to both Han’s and the Republic’s destruction.

+1

There is one other benefit to separating Han’s Death from the Hosnian Destruction, and it is that adventure movies just don’t do that. After a devastating setback or sacrifice, our heroes usually win the day, and a new viewer would expect this. With the separation, the viewer can be surprised by the one-two punch rather than lumping the two tragedies into one.

JEDIT: An alternate of the alternate: After the Starkiller fires but before the beam reaches the Hosnian system, the Oscillator immediately blows up, but everything is suffused in the red glow of the beam. Kylo and Rey’s fight is bathed in red light until she is forced to the edge of the cliff and contacts the Force, at which point the Hosnian system is destroyed. At that moment, there is a massive disturbance in the Force that Rey senses, and this drives her to aggressively defeat Kylo. In this scenario, no Leia reaction is needed since Rey can sense the disturbance herself.

However, if you have Vader show him the vision, you are changing the character of Vader without knowing that is the direction they are taking him in future films. Anakin was redeemed in RotJ. Having him be evil from beyond the grave seems to undo that.

Hardcore Legend said:

However, if you have Vader show him the vision, you are changing the character of Vader without knowing that is the direction they are taking him in future films. Anakin was redeemed in RotJ. Having him be evil from beyond the grave seems to undo that.

My thinking was that these powerful artifacts can induce Force visions, and it is only Kylo’s supposition that Vader himself provides them. In reality, it could be a machination of Snoke or his own wishes combined with the aura surrounding an artifact that had seen evil.

I share your hesitancy about Vader appearing to show him a vision of the future, though it would be ambiguous at best; was Vader trying to warn or dissuade him from being involved in firing the weapon?

Here’s a mockup of how the ideas expressed above might look when all baked together. I went with the former list of events, rather than breaking up Rey’s “force nap,” which I felt was very jarring. Honestly, it’s the approach that sounded better of the two! These are great ideas on paper, but I am uncertain if it will be totally doable using the finished film footage we have available.

https://vimeo.com/212386279
Password: fanedit

The cut from Fin and Rey turning to flee the oscillator to them climbing around in the snow is abrupt now.
The shot of the technician lady is abrupt, since her line cannot be salvaged; she speaks too fast to have it sound right to cut her off.
If the cutaway to Hux saying, “Prepare to fire” is a little jarring with the music, it could easily just be put right back where it originally was; it still fits perfectly there given this proposed order.

All in all, it’s a solid idea, but might not be able to be implemented well. And there’s a debate to be had about whether it is favorable to closely associate Han’s death with the Hosnian system’s destruction, and thereby Kylo Ren’s resolution towards the dark side and implied regret or incongruence. (In ROTJ, Luke took a bold risk by putting faith in his father, who redeemed himself and thereby allowed the day to be saved by taking out the Emperor and letting Luke go on to revive the Jedi. In TFA:R v1, Han took a bold risk by putting faith in his son, who resolved himself to the dark side and thereby ensured the day would not be saved because they were too busy with Kylo to detonate the explosives.)

Hal 9000 said:

I share your hesitancy about Vader appearing to show him a vision of the future, though it would be ambiguous at best; was Vader trying to warn or dissuade him from being involved in firing the weapon?

Here’s a mockup of how the ideas expressed above might look when all baked together. I went with the former list of events, rather than breaking up Rey’s “force nap,” which I felt was very jarring. Honestly, it’s the approach that sounded better of the two! These are great ideas on paper, but I am uncertain if it will be totally doable using the finished film footage we have available.

https://vimeo.com/212386279
Password: fanedit

The cut from Fin and Rey turning to flee the oscillator to them climbing around in the snow is abrupt now.
The shot of the technician lady is abrupt, since her line cannot be salvaged; she speaks too fast to have it sound right to cut her off.
If the cutaway to Hux saying, “Prepare to fire” is a little jarring with the music, it could easily just be put right back where it originally was; it still fits perfectly there given this proposed order.

All in all, it’s a solid idea, but might not be able to be implemented well. And there’s a debate to be had about whether it is favorable to closely associate Han’s death with the Hosnian system’s destruction, and thereby Kylo Ren’s resolution towards the dark side and implied regret or incongruence. (In ROTJ, Luke took a bold risk by putting faith in his father, who redeemed himself and thereby allowed the day to be saved by taking out the Emperor and letting Luke go on to revive the Jedi. In TFA:R v1, Han took a bold risk by putting faith in his son, who resolved himself to the dark side and thereby ensured the day would not be saved because they were too busy with Kylo to detonate the explosives.)

Thank you for making the mockup so quickly! It has issues for sure, the biggest of which to me is that the destruction still doesn’t have an effect.

The V1 sequence was always going to be odd in that Kylo wasn’t the one they needed to convince in order to save the Republic - Hux was in another location entirely, so saving Kylo wouldn’t make any difference to their mission. As it is now, it seems like our heroes just lost track of time.

V1 still works better at the moment, but I’ll keep thinking about it 😃

Yes. It’s thematically linked more than logically. The same point could be made about Luke in ROTJ; presumably, the team would have destroyed the Death Star regardless of Luke’s success or failure onboard.

Unrelated: I don’t think Threepio’s like has a place in the briefing scene. “Without the Republic fleet, we’re doomed.”

I watched the Snap scene and found it a little confusing visually. The first time through my eyes told me the old man was speaking, then the second time my eyes told me it was Han. as far as the mix, it seems like the voice is a little too upfront and needs a longer fade in and fade out to make it more seamless. Not sure this line is needed though, but I’m sure there is a logical reason 😛

MalàStrana said:

Hal 9000 said:

Yes. It’s thematically linked more than logically. The same point could be made about Luke in ROTJ; presumably, the team would have destroyed the Death Star regardless of Luke’s success or failure onboard.

Yeah but that’s one thing I like with ROTJ: there is a rehash of the Death Star but it’s not the heart at all of the story, just another story in the background to bring the chain of events in one place.

That’s being said, you should indeed stick to the v1 version of the destruction of the NR.

I agree with V1 being the better option as well. I believe the events worked hand-in-hand in the first edit, while this one seems slightly disjointed.

Hal 9000 said:

Yes. It’s thematically linked more than logically. The same point could be made about Luke in ROTJ; presumably, the team would have destroyed the Death Star regardless of Luke’s success or failure onboard.

Unrelated: I don’t think Threepio’s like has a place in the briefing scene. “Without the Republic fleet, we’re doomed.”

On the Threepio line, I interpreted his meaning to be a more of a general ‘without the Republic Fleet, our paltry dozen X-wings are doomed’.

There’s an important difference in the Starkiller attack, since the bombs allowed the oscillator to be destroyed. Arguably, if they’d done that sooner instead of confronting Kylo, they would have saved the Republic. Luke was ready to ‘fail’ in his quest since the Rebellion’s mission was entirely separate.

But I agree with everyone that V1 should stay. I made some changes to the mockup, but I don’t think they’re sufficient.
https://vimeo.com/212414785
Password: meh

Yeah, I’m glad you brought the idea up and we were able to give it a try today, but ultimately feel that the structure as in V1 would be best to retain.
Although, if you’re able to ditch the star destroyer from its shot in the firing scene, I agree it’d be nice to keep.

The firing scene has several problems, including the fact that the planet shouldn’t be in sunlight at the time. So there are at least 3 shots that need fixing at some point.