So you're saying that all the ships in RotJ look like they come from the same place? Again, to me it looks like they come from very different cultures.
Or are you saying that each pilot should have his own ship that they brought with them when they signed up?
I'm not saying either, really.
I'm just saying there's not enough variety. What about the Wookiees, the Bothans, the Sullustans, and all the other corporations that supported the Rebellion?
We really only see a very small portion of the Rebel Alliance in RotJ, as only a fraction of their members and supporters are seen.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alliance_Fleet
^ This article has a concise list of different ships employed by the Alliance.
aalenfae said:
I'm not saying either, really.
I'm just saying there's not enough variety. What about the Wookiees, the Bothans, the Sullustans, and all the other corporations that supported the Rebellion?
We really only see a very small portion of the Rebel Alliance in RotJ, as only a fraction of their members and supporters are seen.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alliance_Fleet
^ This article has a concise list of different ships employed by the Alliance.
I wholeheartedly agree. The Rebellion shouldn't feel like an organized military so much as a ragtag militia.
MrInsaneA said:
The Rebellion shouldn't feel like an organized military so much as a ragtag militia.
But they are an organized military. I think what you guys are discussing would work better for a pre-ANH rebellion. At this point (RotJ), they've had some BIG victories (the ANH opening text refers to the fact that they have already had some big wins and are growing) and would have gained much more mainstream support.
Ray, I totally see what you're saying. I guess I simply don't hate the prequels the way so many do. I don't mind seeing subtle references in the OT. On top of that, I don't know why people can't simply overlook it the same way you overlook the battle droid head as "just another droid." It's "just another ship." Long ago I read Splinter of the Mind's Eye. It was a slow tale that felt weird to me. That was when I accepted much of the EU at the time (probably around 1998 or thereabouts). But with greater knowledge of the context in which it was written, I read it again just last year (June or July I think). This time I read it as the Star Wars sequel it was originally written to be. I pretended ESB and ROTJ didn't even exist. I pretended Leia wasn't Luke's sis, that Vader wasn't his pops. And I really enjoyed it. I think that it shouldn't be so hard for people to just accept and reject whatever they really care to. Folks come to this site and are reminded every time that the PT exists, and removing all references to it in the updated OT films won't make them disappear. I honestly think that we can enjoy PT elements that don't interfere with the plot. Simply pretend they are new ships. That's the way I see it.
As for the technical aspects, I again tend to agree with aalenfae: I believe there would be a greater variety for a group like the Rebels. Visually it may be confusing, but I hope we don't go overboard. I simply think it'd be cool to see a beat up N-1 flying in the distance for 2 seconds, to see a couple of Z-95s briefly, to see the Victory Star Destroyers taking part as support craft for the Empire, to see the Y-wing squadron comprised of a few BTL-B Y-wings who might actually make a bombing run as the Y-wing was originally defined (hence why Gold Squadron made the first Death Star trench run in ANH). I don't feel anything needs to be too in-your-face. Just smattering for variety and fun, and fitting well with the concept that the Rebels took whatever they could get their hands on and used it in their most important battle.
In the end, we'll put it to a vote. I know you're not the only one who feels the way you do.
For the record, if I haven't already made it clear enough, I want to see the Mon Cals in action, and I want to see a large Home One, as the original studio model suggests (not the canonical size). I've stated this before, but more people are involved now than then. Here is a scaling of various Mon Cal ships. The ones of significance to us are the Home One, winged Liberty-type, and the "pearly wingless" type. The others are fairly spurious in my opinion, but at the same time, it might be fun to see more of the smaller varieties, as I've always read that each cruiser was unique. The Strident shown here and the Viscount (not shown) are not worth it in my mind.
I know that according to EU canon (which I no longer care much about), some of these haven't yet been invented, but I simply think they might be a nice pattern to follow to add variety to the classes of cruisers.
Final thought of the night: I didn't really get a whole lot of enthusiastic support when it came to people organizing and submitting vote ideas. This of course means that I'll be going through the past who knows how many pages and gathering them myself. I'll try to have something ready soon (Ron, this is the second of three votes). Thanks to those who did some gathering (fishmanlee, your post of music alternates comes to mind). This vote will not include items up for revote. We may even simply have to include revote items for the third round, with very few new ideas.
ray_afraid said:
MrInsaneA said:
The Rebellion shouldn't feel like an organized military so much as a ragtag militia.
But they are an organized military. I think what you guys are discussing would work better for a pre-ANH rebellion. At this point (RotJ), they've had some BIG victories (the ANH opening text refers to the fact that they have already had some big wins and are growing) and would have gained much more mainstream support.
That may make sense realistically but thematically it would be good to separate the Rebels from the Empire. Empire: Big military force of humans. Rebels: Rag tag group of aliens and humans.
Although the inclusion of other rebel ships I think would somewhat work... It really would not change that much in terms of the story but would hope it make it feel more rag-tag... Anyway those are my thoughts and whilst again I say I am not opposed to the idea it needs to be executed carefully and have in mind that there is hatred for the PT and It should proceed with caution and not be overdone... I think more emphasis should be placed on what is already there the B-wings A-wings Y-wings and x-wings aswell as the tie-fighters and gunners on the falcon as we really did not see much action from these and were talking about other ships before expanding on the core-ships we have footage for and were really there in the original...... Think about that
The conversation needs to be brought back down to earth.....
Anyway I collected clips from the first act and have started piecing together parts.... It is alot of work to do so I will ask again if anyone would contribute anything or help such as a title crawl or any other mock-ups in low res video so render time is short....
It won't be done for a while anyway
I just want to see a FEW added ships. Just a few different ships will communicate a slightly larger/more diverse fleet.
I mainly want to see:
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/6/66/RepublicC70Frigate-TCW.jpg
http://www.bwafer.com/starwars/images/Starfigher.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/4/43/Recusant-class_Light_Destroyer.jpg
http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/6485/n1rebel.jpg (only in background)
http://www.starwars-models-images.com/images/others/Z-95-top.jpg
Oh, and a few of these, too :)
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/9/95/B-wing_infly.jpg
I'd love to show all you guys the sandstorm scene when it is completed. I am currently color correcting it followed by a lengthy frame-by-frame process of removing dust, scratches, etc. from the picture. I have perfected the process enough to get rid of the possible randomization that can occur while cleaning the footage. You just have to be very handy with the clone stamp, spot healing brush, and magic eraser tools to do so.
MrInsaneA said:
ray_afraid said:
MrInsaneA said:
The Rebellion shouldn't feel like an organized military so much as a ragtag militia.
But they are an organized military. I think what you guys are discussing would work better for a pre-ANH rebellion. At this point (RotJ), they've had some BIG victories (the ANH opening text refers to the fact that they have already had some big wins and are growing) and would have gained much more mainstream support.
That may make sense realistically but thematically it would be good to separate the Rebels from the Empire. Empire: Big military force of humans. Rebels: Rag tag group of aliens and humans.
And that is exactly what is represented on screen as the film stands. The rebels are out numbered, out gunned, and out classed. Just not as much as they were during the battle of Yavin, nor would they be as I've pointed out already. We see that they are a cobbled together group of aliens and humans alike (unlike the Empire). The only reason the Rebels are launching such a daring assault on the DSII is because they think it isn't working yet- not because they've become such a big military force that they are confident in their abilities and machinery. When they find out the DSII is operational, they collectively shit themselves and without Landos courage and faith in his buddies, they would have turned tail and ran.
I don't wanna be "that guy" here, but the stakes were ever bit as high in ANH as in RotJ and the Rebels in ANH only had two types of ships as opposed to Jedi's four. Why wouldn't they pull all stops during the battle of Yavin?
emanswfan said:
I'd love to show all you guys the sandstorm scene when it is completed. I am currently color correcting it followed by a lengthy frame-by-frame process of removing dust, scratches, etc. from the picture. I have perfected the process enough to get rid of the possible randomization that can occur while cleaning the footage. You just have to be very handy with the clone stamp, spot healing brush, and magic eraser tools to do so.
That's so wizard!
emanswfan said:
I'd love to show all you guys the sandstorm scene when it is completed. I am currently color correcting it followed by a lengthy frame-by-frame process of removing dust, scratches, etc. from the picture. I have perfected the process enough to get rid of the possible randomization that can occur while cleaning the footage. You just have to be very handy with the clone stamp, spot healing brush, and magic eraser tools to do so.
I am seriously so very excited and appreciative of your work, and I haven't even seen much yet. You're the man, eman! Thanks for what you're doing. So much depends on your willingness to do this :)
PS Did you get the PM with the link to the new technical forum?
ray_afraid said:
MrInsaneA said:
ray_afraid said:
MrInsaneA said:
The Rebellion shouldn't feel like an organized military so much as a ragtag militia.
But they are an organized military. I think what you guys are discussing would work better for a pre-ANH rebellion. At this point (RotJ), they've had some BIG victories (the ANH opening text refers to the fact that they have already had some big wins and are growing) and would have gained much more mainstream support.
That may make sense realistically but thematically it would be good to separate the Rebels from the Empire. Empire: Big military force of humans. Rebels: Rag tag group of aliens and humans.
And that is exactly what is represented on screen as the film stands. The rebels are out numbered, out gunned, and out classed. Just not as much as they were during the battle of Yavin, nor would they be as I've pointed out already. We see that they are a cobbled together group of aliens and humans alike (unlike the Empire). The only reason the Rebels are launching such a daring assault on the DSII is because they think it isn't working yet- not because they've become such a big military force that they are confident in their abilities and machinery. When they find out the DSII is operational, they collectively shit themselves and without Landos courage and faith in his buddies, they would have turned tail and ran.
I don't wanna be "that guy" here, but the stakes were ever bit as high in ANH as in RotJ and the Rebels in ANH only had two types of ships as opposed to Jedi's four. Why wouldn't they pull all stops during the battle of Yavin?
I kid you not when I say I truly appreciate your viewpoint. Though I disagree, my hope is that through debate we will achieve the ultimate edit. Please continue being "that guy" until we find some conclusion, probably through the vote I hope to post today or tomorrow. Thanks for explaining your POV so clearly.
As to your final question, I always figured that since at the start of ANH they had only just "won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire." They still had little to work with. Heck, it appears they didn't even have any capital ships at Yavin. But after their victory at Yavin, more peoples gained faith in the cause and the ability for a rebellion to succeed, thus more ships by the time of Endor.
ray_afraid said:
MrInsaneA said:
ray_afraid said:
MrInsaneA said:
The Rebellion shouldn't feel like an organized military so much as a ragtag militia.
But they are an organized military. I think what you guys are discussing would work better for a pre-ANH rebellion. At this point (RotJ), they've had some BIG victories (the ANH opening text refers to the fact that they have already had some big wins and are growing) and would have gained much more mainstream support.
That may make sense realistically but thematically it would be good to separate the Rebels from the Empire. Empire: Big military force of humans. Rebels: Rag tag group of aliens and humans.
And that is exactly what is represented on screen as the film stands. The rebels are out numbered, out gunned, and out classed. Just not as much as they were during the battle of Yavin, nor would they be as I've pointed out already. We see that they are a cobbled together group of aliens and humans alike (unlike the Empire). The only reason the Rebels are launching such a daring assault on the DSII is because they think it isn't working yet- not because they've become such a big military force that they are confident in their abilities and machinery. When they find out the DSII is operational, they collectively shit themselves and without Landos courage and faith in his buddies, they would have turned tail and ran.
I don't wanna be "that guy" here, but the stakes were ever bit as high in ANH as in RotJ and the Rebels in ANH only had two types of ships as opposed to Jedi's four. Why wouldn't they pull all stops during the battle of Yavin?
Ray is absolutely right. ROTJ has a crapload of spaceships already. I think it would be best to suspend the pipe-dream of adding all these ships when we don't know if we can actually do it. Adding background spaceships is a rather small plot point. There are so much bigger hurdles to jump over than this.
We should wait for mock-ups to be made before we decide to include something we don't know are possible yet. Right now we have the cart before the horse.
Well, aalenfae is the one who'd be including most of the ships with his CGI skills, and I think he has access to many that he's interested in via the aforementioned 3d model site. But yes, there are other hurdles. We'll figure this out. Even the vote isn't the final say, only a guide, and in the end we simply have to trust the editors to follow the will of the people as much as possible.
As for plot hurdles, what suggestions do you have, Sluggo? I've been smoothing out the story, but I hope it reflects the views of the majority.
emanswfan said:
I'd love to show all you guys the sandstorm scene when it is completed. I am currently color correcting it followed by a lengthy frame-by-frame process of removing dust, scratches, etc. from the picture. I have perfected the process enough to get rid of the possible randomization that can occur while cleaning the footage. You just have to be very handy with the clone stamp, spot healing brush, and magic eraser tools to do so.
Nice Work Emanswfan!!!
So I've quickly looked through all pages since the last vote was called and have included everything of significance I noticed. I did it rather quickly, which means I probably overlooked some things. I'm trying to include links so people will understand references, such as unfamiliar ships designs, lengthy suggestions, music clips, etc. That may take a bit and I have to study for my first exam on Wed. Hope to have it up today at some point. I doubt I'll give a full week for responses, as most people voted on the first and last days, so I'll probably shorten it.
darth_ender said:
So I've quickly looked through all pages since the last vote was called and have included everything of significance I noticed. I did it rather quickly, which means I probably overlooked some things. I'm trying to include links so people will understand references, such as unfamiliar ships designs, lengthy suggestions, music clips, etc. That may take a bit and I have to study for my first exam on Wed. Hope to have it up today at some point. I doubt I'll give a full week for responses, as most people voted on the first and last days, so I'll probably shorten it.
I have another suggestion for you regarding Tie-Fighters we never get to see them launch in the whole trilogy and the method of them launching is really cool with those rails they hang on in the bays so my request is simple can we see some launch just before the battle starts?
Ronster said:
darth_ender said:
So I've quickly looked through all pages since the last vote was called and have included everything of significance I noticed. I did it rather quickly, which means I probably overlooked some things. I'm trying to include links so people will understand references, such as unfamiliar ships designs, lengthy suggestions, music clips, etc. That may take a bit and I have to study for my first exam on Wed. Hope to have it up today at some point. I doubt I'll give a full week for responses, as most people voted on the first and last days, so I'll probably shorten it.
I have another suggestion for you regarding Tie-Fighters we never get to see them launch in the whole trilogy and the method of them launching is really cool with those rails they hang on in the bays so my request is simple can we see some launch just before the battle starts?
That's actually a cool idea. It would be an awesome visual, to see thousands of TIEs flying out of the Death Star. Kind of like bees protecting a bee hive.
Agreed! I'll add it to the vote.
I never saw the Rebel fleet as having access to or the means to manufacture ships.
They are just old ships that have been salvaged. stolen and modified.
Iraqi SCUDs in space, that sort of thing.
No manufacturer would live long enough to build anything new for them.
In which case having heavily hotrodded versions of PT era ships makes sense.
I expected to see clean brand new versions of those ships in the prequels and was disappointed that Lucas put making new toys ahead of carrying the story arc visually by using those touchstones.
The clean Y-Wings in The Clone Wars series was the right sort of idea but too late.
MrInsaneA said:
Ronster said:
darth_ender said:
So I've quickly looked through all pages since the last vote was called and have included everything of significance I noticed. I did it rather quickly, which means I probably overlooked some things. I'm trying to include links so people will understand references, such as unfamiliar ships designs, lengthy suggestions, music clips, etc. That may take a bit and I have to study for my first exam on Wed. Hope to have it up today at some point. I doubt I'll give a full week for responses, as most people voted on the first and last days, so I'll probably shorten it.
I have another suggestion for you regarding Tie-Fighters we never get to see them launch in the whole trilogy and the method of them launching is really cool with those rails they hang on in the bays so my request is simple can we see some launch just before the battle starts?
That's actually a cool idea. It would be an awesome visual, to see thousands of TIEs flying out of the Death Star. Kind of like bees protecting a bee hive.
I don't want to take the idea too far but would be happy just to see 1 or 2 launch from a bay on a star destroyer just to fill in that gap that we all know how it is but never witnessed it in a Star wars film before
I guess you'd have a few rows behind the first ones that go but to see it visually would be nice.
Ok so thinking about Yoda giving luke the crystal I have just looked over the footage of when Vader vs Luke at the end and It would be neccesary for when he recieves the crystal through mid air it would be the same footage as when luke checks his hand after he chops vaders off but luke composited in yodas hut although his lightsabre would be off screen below the bottom of the image. Not the shot though where we see lukes face and him clenching his fist though...
It will make it like a de-ja-vu momment and as if Yoda new the future... Handy he's wearing the right clothes... And it might just have the right connotations to it. As Luke throws the light sabre away before he gets dragged into the dark-side
darth_ender said:
Well, aalenfae is the one who'd be including most of the ships with his CGI skills, and I think he has access to many that he's interested in via the aforementioned 3d model site. But yes, there are other hurdles. We'll figure this out. Even the vote isn't the final say, only a guide, and in the end we simply have to trust the editors to follow the will of the people as much as possible.
As for plot hurdles, what suggestions do you have, Sluggo? I've been smoothing out the story, but I hope it reflects the views of the majority.
I've only had time to dig into the script this weekend.