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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 238

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Isn’t the real complaint just that you don’t like the possibilities that this creates? arguing physics is just subterfuge. if its cool and works, it should be in star wars. You seem to agree it is cool, but you don’t think it works.

Rian didn’t go cowboy on this, enough people in the story group seemed to think they could make this work, so I for one have no worries about how future movies will deal with this. IE: it won’t be used all the time.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

This, especially when the visuals of going to hyperspace imply as much.

Also, people seem to think that this means TLJ is portraying hyperspeed is some kinda superpowerful attack method. But the way I saw it, the hyperspeed was just the fastest and most effective way to get the Raddus in contact with the Supremacy.

As long you don’t care about real life physics, which I 1000% don’t (and neither does Star Wars, nor has it ever, unless you’re referring to some EU hard sci-fi mumbo that has no place in this franchise), I’m honestly not sure why it’s an issue. I get if you’re super into science or whatever and you know that going to lightspeed can do all sorts of wacky stuff and that bothers you, but I don’t think it’s that hard to leave that at the door when you go to a fantasy film. As to this breaking established rules of the franchise, I still have yet to see anyone explain how this is the case, when they’ve literally explained next to nothing about how hyperspace works in the films.

But again, if you want to be bothered by something that shouldn’t reasonably be bothersome, go ahead.

I disagree. To me that’s a philosophy, where in fiction anything goes. So, it doesn’t matter, because fantasy doesn’t adhere to the real physics. However, imo to suspend disbelief fiction has to adhere to some set of rules, and be internally consistent. This is where I have a problem with TLJ on many fronts. In this instance, apart from the fact, that accelerating to lightspeed doesn’t make much physical sense,

By your own definition this shouldn’t be an issue. If Star Wars is fantasy, there should be no reason to not roll with the fact that ships need to accelerate into lightspeed, just like the Delorean (note that every time we see a ship go into lightspeed it looks like they are doing exactly this).

the hyperspace kamikaze proofs a hyperspace projectile is a much more powerful weapon than a torpedo, which begs the question why they are not widely used in the GFFA? The fact that any space battle in the GFFA would have been over in minutes with such weaponary, is bothersome to me, since the technology has been available for decades, and then I’ve not even mentioned the fact, that a kamikaze attack is pretty nonsensical in a universe with such advanced AI as the GFFA.

Like I said, I don’t think the hyperspace is the most important part of this equation. Colliding a ship the size of the Raddus would do a lot of damage no matter what, accelerating to hyperspeed was just the fastest and most efficient way to get it in contact with the Supremacy.

When you consider this, there’s not a single other time in these films where this would have been an effective strategy. Not only does the Raddus look like the biggest ship the Rebellion/Resistance has ever had, there was no point where completely wasting a capitol ship that size would have made any significant difference. The Death Star is pretty much the only time(s) they were trying to take down something big like the Supremacy, but the Death Stars were so big that ramming a ship through them at lightspeed wouldn’t do close to the damage shown done to the Supremacy, and I’d imagine the station would probably be back up and running in a week.

You don’t need a ship like the Raddus. An object the size of a football would have the same impact as detonating a nuclear bomb. An unmanned ship or torpedo the size of an X-wing would to tremendous damage equivalent to dropping a thousand nukes. I think the Death Star would be out of commission permanently, especially if such an attack would be directed at the disk.

Weird that apparently like RJ, you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too. So do you care about real life physics in Star Wars, or not? If you actually only care about consistent in-universe logic as you claim, then this is not an issue. Never before have we seen an object collide via hyperspeed in Star Wars.

In my opinion, it is not reasonable to expect Star Wars to follow the actual laws of physics in every regard, so therefore it is not reasonable to expect Star Wars to follow the laws of physics in regard to lightspeed collision (why this and not the other things it gets wrong?).

Considering TLJ is the first instance of a lightspeed collision, this is where Star Wars is establishing its physics for a lightspeed collision. And in its version, a lightspeed collision clearly does not have the power of “a thousand nukes” or maybe even one nuke.

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DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

But 88mph is a normal speed, and it’s completely evident from TLJ, that the Supremacy was hit at a much greater speed than normal speed, and the ship was accelerating to lightspeed, which is a contradiction in terms.

So the only two options are 88mph and lightspeed? There’s nothing in-between?

No, there’s normal speed driven by normal engines with normal physical limits, and there’s lightspeed for which you need a hyperdrive. The former is normal motion in real space, while lightspeed is achieved in another dimension called hyperspace. The idea of achieving lightspeed or entering hyperspace by accelarating to an unphysically high speed in normal space is as preposterous to me as saying a man can fly by running really fast while flapping his arms.

Is it as preposterous as sound in space, fire in space, laser bolts instead of laser beams, every planet in the galaxy having breathable air and Earth-like gravity, an asteroid field having densely packed asteroids, an asteroid having Earth-like gravity, a million other things I can’t think of off the top of my head, oh and also the ability to lift objects with your mind?

Again it’s not about physical reality. It’s about internal logic. A concept can defy physical reality, but still be consistent within itself. Hyperspace kamikaze logically extends to hyperspace weapons, just like kamikaze with an airplane logically extends to projectile weapons like bullets, torpedo’s etc. Considering hyperspace weapons would trump any weapon in the GFFA except “Death Star tech” it doesn’t make sense, that we didn’t see such weapons used in the GFFA before, as hyperspace technology has been around for a very long time. TLJ thus breaks the GFFA’s internal logic.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

But 88mph is a normal speed, and it’s completely evident from TLJ, that the Supremacy was hit at a much greater speed than normal speed, and the ship was accelerating to lightspeed, which is a contradiction in terms.

So the only two options are 88mph and lightspeed? There’s nothing in-between?

No, there’s normal speed driven by normal engines with normal physical limits, and there’s lightspeed for which you need a hyperdrive. The former is normal motion in real space, while lightspeed is achieved in another dimension called hyperspace. The idea of achieving lightspeed or entering hyperspace by accelarating to an unphysically high speed in normal space is as preposterous to me as saying a man can fly by running really fast while flapping his arms.

Is it as preposterous as sound in space, fire in space, laser bolts instead of laser beams, every planet in the galaxy having breathable air and Earth-like gravity, an asteroid field having densely packed asteroids, an asteroid having Earth-like gravity, a million other things I can’t think of off the top of my head, oh and also the ability to lift objects with your mind?

Again it’s not about physical reality. It’s about internal logic. A concept can defy physical reality, but still be consistent within itself. Hyperspace kamikaze logically extends to hyperspace weapons, just like kamikaze with an airplane logically extends to projectile weapons like bullets, torpedo’s etc. Considering hyperspace weapons would trump any weapon in the GFFA except “Death Star tech” it doesn’t make sense, that we didn’t see such weapons used in the GFFA before, as hyperspace technology has been around for a very long time. TLJ thus breaks the GFFA’s internal logic.

sorry, but if we are going to continue to tell star wars stories, i sure hope they introduce new things like this. how you can claim this breaks internal logic is strange to me.

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It would be better if we told the same story, no one would complain about that.

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

This, especially when the visuals of going to hyperspace imply as much.

Also, people seem to think that this means TLJ is portraying hyperspeed is some kinda superpowerful attack method. But the way I saw it, the hyperspeed was just the fastest and most effective way to get the Raddus in contact with the Supremacy.

As long you don’t care about real life physics, which I 1000% don’t (and neither does Star Wars, nor has it ever, unless you’re referring to some EU hard sci-fi mumbo that has no place in this franchise), I’m honestly not sure why it’s an issue. I get if you’re super into science or whatever and you know that going to lightspeed can do all sorts of wacky stuff and that bothers you, but I don’t think it’s that hard to leave that at the door when you go to a fantasy film. As to this breaking established rules of the franchise, I still have yet to see anyone explain how this is the case, when they’ve literally explained next to nothing about how hyperspace works in the films.

But again, if you want to be bothered by something that shouldn’t reasonably be bothersome, go ahead.

I disagree. To me that’s a philosophy, where in fiction anything goes. So, it doesn’t matter, because fantasy doesn’t adhere to the real physics. However, imo to suspend disbelief fiction has to adhere to some set of rules, and be internally consistent. This is where I have a problem with TLJ on many fronts. In this instance, apart from the fact, that accelerating to lightspeed doesn’t make much physical sense,

By your own definition this shouldn’t be an issue. If Star Wars is fantasy, there should be no reason to not roll with the fact that ships need to accelerate into lightspeed, just like the Delorean (note that every time we see a ship go into lightspeed it looks like they are doing exactly this).

the hyperspace kamikaze proofs a hyperspace projectile is a much more powerful weapon than a torpedo, which begs the question why they are not widely used in the GFFA? The fact that any space battle in the GFFA would have been over in minutes with such weaponary, is bothersome to me, since the technology has been available for decades, and then I’ve not even mentioned the fact, that a kamikaze attack is pretty nonsensical in a universe with such advanced AI as the GFFA.

Like I said, I don’t think the hyperspace is the most important part of this equation. Colliding a ship the size of the Raddus would do a lot of damage no matter what, accelerating to hyperspeed was just the fastest and most efficient way to get it in contact with the Supremacy.

When you consider this, there’s not a single other time in these films where this would have been an effective strategy. Not only does the Raddus look like the biggest ship the Rebellion/Resistance has ever had, there was no point where completely wasting a capitol ship that size would have made any significant difference. The Death Star is pretty much the only time(s) they were trying to take down something big like the Supremacy, but the Death Stars were so big that ramming a ship through them at lightspeed wouldn’t do close to the damage shown done to the Supremacy, and I’d imagine the station would probably be back up and running in a week.

You don’t need a ship like the Raddus. An object the size of a football would have the same impact as detonating a nuclear bomb. An unmanned ship or torpedo the size of an X-wing would to tremendous damage equivalent to dropping a thousand nukes. I think the Death Star would be out of commission permanently, especially if such an attack would be directed at the disk.

Weird that apparently like RJ, you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too. So do you care about real life physics in Star Wars, or not? If you actually only care about consistent in-universe logic as you claim, then this is not an issue. Never before have we seen an object collide via hyperspeed in Star Wars.

In my opinion, it is not reasonable to expect Star Wars to follow the actual laws of physics in every regard, so therefore it is not reasonable to expect Star Wars to follow the laws of physics in regard to lightspeed collision (why this and not the other things it gets wrong?).

Considering TLJ is the first instance of a lightspeed collision, this is where Star Wars is establishing its physics for a lightspeed collision. And in its version, a lightspeed collision clearly does not have the power of “a thousand nukes” or maybe even one nuke.

It clearly has the power of conventional GFFA weapons many times over. The Raddus cut through the Supremacy like butter, which is a ship the size of width of 20 km or 1/6 the size of the Death Star. So, the film itself depicts the energy released as equivalent to the power of many conventional weapons, which in themselves seem quite a bit more powerful than the weapons on planet earth. Hence, the only logical conclusion is, that a hyperspace collision in the GFFA as depicted by TLJ has the power of many nukes.

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 (Edited)

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

But 88mph is a normal speed, and it’s completely evident from TLJ, that the Supremacy was hit at a much greater speed than normal speed, and the ship was accelerating to lightspeed, which is a contradiction in terms.

So the only two options are 88mph and lightspeed? There’s nothing in-between?

No, there’s normal speed driven by normal engines with normal physical limits, and there’s lightspeed for which you need a hyperdrive. The former is normal motion in real space, while lightspeed is achieved in another dimension called hyperspace. The idea of achieving lightspeed or entering hyperspace by accelarating to an unphysically high speed in normal space is as preposterous to me as saying a man can fly by running really fast while flapping his arms.

Is it as preposterous as sound in space, fire in space, laser bolts instead of laser beams, every planet in the galaxy having breathable air and Earth-like gravity, an asteroid field having densely packed asteroids, an asteroid having Earth-like gravity, a million other things I can’t think of off the top of my head, oh and also the ability to lift objects with your mind?

Again it’s not about physical reality. It’s about internal logic. A concept can defy physical reality, but still be consistent within itself. Hyperspace kamikaze logically extends to hyperspace weapons, just like kamikaze with an airplane logically extends to projectile weapons like bullets, torpedo’s etc. Considering hyperspace weapons would trump any weapon in the GFFA except “Death Star tech” it doesn’t make sense, that we didn’t see such weapons used in the GFFA before, as hyperspace technology has been around for a very long time. TLJ thus breaks the GFFA’s internal logic.

sorry, but if we are going to continue to tell star wars stories, i sure hope they introduce new things like this. how you can claim this breaks internal logic is strange to me.

To me weaponizing hyperspace, a technology that has been available in the GFFA for decades, and is shown to be much more powerful than conventional GFFA weapons, but for some unexplained reason was never used on a large scale (or any scale for that matter), defies internal logic. Just like sacrificing yourself in a kamikaze attack whilst having droids available to do it for you, defies internal logic. Sorry, it’s just how my brain works.

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Anyone for cake?

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

This, especially when the visuals of going to hyperspace imply as much.

Also, people seem to think that this means TLJ is portraying hyperspeed is some kinda superpowerful attack method. But the way I saw it, the hyperspeed was just the fastest and most effective way to get the Raddus in contact with the Supremacy.

As long you don’t care about real life physics, which I 1000% don’t (and neither does Star Wars, nor has it ever, unless you’re referring to some EU hard sci-fi mumbo that has no place in this franchise), I’m honestly not sure why it’s an issue. I get if you’re super into science or whatever and you know that going to lightspeed can do all sorts of wacky stuff and that bothers you, but I don’t think it’s that hard to leave that at the door when you go to a fantasy film. As to this breaking established rules of the franchise, I still have yet to see anyone explain how this is the case, when they’ve literally explained next to nothing about how hyperspace works in the films.

But again, if you want to be bothered by something that shouldn’t reasonably be bothersome, go ahead.

I disagree. To me that’s a philosophy, where in fiction anything goes. So, it doesn’t matter, because fantasy doesn’t adhere to the real physics. However, imo to suspend disbelief fiction has to adhere to some set of rules, and be internally consistent. This is where I have a problem with TLJ on many fronts. In this instance, apart from the fact, that accelerating to lightspeed doesn’t make much physical sense,

By your own definition this shouldn’t be an issue. If Star Wars is fantasy, there should be no reason to not roll with the fact that ships need to accelerate into lightspeed, just like the Delorean (note that every time we see a ship go into lightspeed it looks like they are doing exactly this).

the hyperspace kamikaze proofs a hyperspace projectile is a much more powerful weapon than a torpedo, which begs the question why they are not widely used in the GFFA? The fact that any space battle in the GFFA would have been over in minutes with such weaponary, is bothersome to me, since the technology has been available for decades, and then I’ve not even mentioned the fact, that a kamikaze attack is pretty nonsensical in a universe with such advanced AI as the GFFA.

Like I said, I don’t think the hyperspace is the most important part of this equation. Colliding a ship the size of the Raddus would do a lot of damage no matter what, accelerating to hyperspeed was just the fastest and most efficient way to get it in contact with the Supremacy.

When you consider this, there’s not a single other time in these films where this would have been an effective strategy. Not only does the Raddus look like the biggest ship the Rebellion/Resistance has ever had, there was no point where completely wasting a capitol ship that size would have made any significant difference. The Death Star is pretty much the only time(s) they were trying to take down something big like the Supremacy, but the Death Stars were so big that ramming a ship through them at lightspeed wouldn’t do close to the damage shown done to the Supremacy, and I’d imagine the station would probably be back up and running in a week.

You don’t need a ship like the Raddus. An object the size of a football would have the same impact as detonating a nuclear bomb. An unmanned ship or torpedo the size of an X-wing would to tremendous damage equivalent to dropping a thousand nukes. I think the Death Star would be out of commission permanently, especially if such an attack would be directed at the disk.

Weird that apparently like RJ, you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too. So do you care about real life physics in Star Wars, or not? If you actually only care about consistent in-universe logic as you claim, then this is not an issue. Never before have we seen an object collide via hyperspeed in Star Wars.

In my opinion, it is not reasonable to expect Star Wars to follow the actual laws of physics in every regard, so therefore it is not reasonable to expect Star Wars to follow the laws of physics in regard to lightspeed collision (why this and not the other things it gets wrong?).

Considering TLJ is the first instance of a lightspeed collision, this is where Star Wars is establishing its physics for a lightspeed collision. And in its version, a lightspeed collision clearly does not have the power of “a thousand nukes” or maybe even one nuke.

It clearly has the power of conventional GFFA weapons many times over. The Raddus cut through the Supremacy like butter, which is a ship the size of width of 20 km or 1/6 the size of the Death Star. So, the film itself depicts the energy released as equivalent to the power of many conventional weapons, which in themselves seem quite a bit more powerful than the weapons on planet earth. Hence, the only logical conclusion is, that a hyperspace collision in the GFFA as depicted by TLJ has the power of many nukes.

We see it slice through the wing of the Supremacy, but the majority of the ship is left more or less in tact (though probably out of commission). Considering, as you say, the Supremacy is 1/6 the size of the Death Star, it is not unreasonable to suppose that it might not cause a significant enough damage to be viable method of attack on that station.

As for having the greatest power of any GFFA weapon, sure, but again this is a massive ship we’re talking about, the biggest that’s ever been shown in the Rebel fleet. It is not unreasonable to assume that an X-wing kamikaze-ing at lightspeed into the Supremacy wouldn’t have done nearly the same damage.

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What the heck is a GFFA?

I mean, I know now because of Google, but I don’t remember it being used here before and it’s bothering me (unreasonably so, I supposed) to see it used so many times in one day.

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DominicCobb said:

It is not unreasonable to assume that an X-wing kamikaze-ing at lightspeed into the Supremacy wouldn’t have done nearly the same dahmage.

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TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

It is not unreasonable to assume that an X-wing kamikaze-ing at lightspeed into the Supremacy wouldn’t have done nearly the same dahmage.

i read every post that way. it often makes me angry and then i realize i just read it wrong.

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

This, especially when the visuals of going to hyperspace imply as much.

Also, people seem to think that this means TLJ is portraying hyperspeed is some kinda superpowerful attack method. But the way I saw it, the hyperspeed was just the fastest and most effective way to get the Raddus in contact with the Supremacy.

As long you don’t care about real life physics, which I 1000% don’t (and neither does Star Wars, nor has it ever, unless you’re referring to some EU hard sci-fi mumbo that has no place in this franchise), I’m honestly not sure why it’s an issue. I get if you’re super into science or whatever and you know that going to lightspeed can do all sorts of wacky stuff and that bothers you, but I don’t think it’s that hard to leave that at the door when you go to a fantasy film. As to this breaking established rules of the franchise, I still have yet to see anyone explain how this is the case, when they’ve literally explained next to nothing about how hyperspace works in the films.

But again, if you want to be bothered by something that shouldn’t reasonably be bothersome, go ahead.

I disagree. To me that’s a philosophy, where in fiction anything goes. So, it doesn’t matter, because fantasy doesn’t adhere to the real physics. However, imo to suspend disbelief fiction has to adhere to some set of rules, and be internally consistent. This is where I have a problem with TLJ on many fronts. In this instance, apart from the fact, that accelerating to lightspeed doesn’t make much physical sense,

By your own definition this shouldn’t be an issue. If Star Wars is fantasy, there should be no reason to not roll with the fact that ships need to accelerate into lightspeed, just like the Delorean (note that every time we see a ship go into lightspeed it looks like they are doing exactly this).

the hyperspace kamikaze proofs a hyperspace projectile is a much more powerful weapon than a torpedo, which begs the question why they are not widely used in the GFFA? The fact that any space battle in the GFFA would have been over in minutes with such weaponary, is bothersome to me, since the technology has been available for decades, and then I’ve not even mentioned the fact, that a kamikaze attack is pretty nonsensical in a universe with such advanced AI as the GFFA.

Like I said, I don’t think the hyperspace is the most important part of this equation. Colliding a ship the size of the Raddus would do a lot of damage no matter what, accelerating to hyperspeed was just the fastest and most efficient way to get it in contact with the Supremacy.

When you consider this, there’s not a single other time in these films where this would have been an effective strategy. Not only does the Raddus look like the biggest ship the Rebellion/Resistance has ever had, there was no point where completely wasting a capitol ship that size would have made any significant difference. The Death Star is pretty much the only time(s) they were trying to take down something big like the Supremacy, but the Death Stars were so big that ramming a ship through them at lightspeed wouldn’t do close to the damage shown done to the Supremacy, and I’d imagine the station would probably be back up and running in a week.

You don’t need a ship like the Raddus. An object the size of a football would have the same impact as detonating a nuclear bomb. An unmanned ship or torpedo the size of an X-wing would to tremendous damage equivalent to dropping a thousand nukes. I think the Death Star would be out of commission permanently, especially if such an attack would be directed at the disk.

Weird that apparently like RJ, you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too. So do you care about real life physics in Star Wars, or not? If you actually only care about consistent in-universe logic as you claim, then this is not an issue. Never before have we seen an object collide via hyperspeed in Star Wars.

In my opinion, it is not reasonable to expect Star Wars to follow the actual laws of physics in every regard, so therefore it is not reasonable to expect Star Wars to follow the laws of physics in regard to lightspeed collision (why this and not the other things it gets wrong?).

Considering TLJ is the first instance of a lightspeed collision, this is where Star Wars is establishing its physics for a lightspeed collision. And in its version, a lightspeed collision clearly does not have the power of “a thousand nukes” or maybe even one nuke.

It clearly has the power of conventional GFFA weapons many times over. The Raddus cut through the Supremacy like butter, which is a ship the size of width of 20 km or 1/6 the size of the Death Star. So, the film itself depicts the energy released as equivalent to the power of many conventional weapons, which in themselves seem quite a bit more powerful than the weapons on planet earth. Hence, the only logical conclusion is, that a hyperspace collision in the GFFA as depicted by TLJ has the power of many nukes.

We see it slice through the wing of the Supremacy, but the majority of the ship is left more or less in tact (though probably out of commission). Considering, as you say, the Supremacy is 1/6 the size of the Death Star, it is not unreasonable to suppose that it might not cause a significant enough damage to be viable method of attack on that station.

As for having the greatest power of any GFFA weapon, sure, but again this is a massive ship we’re talking about, the biggest that’s ever been shown in the Rebel fleet. It is not unreasonable to assume that an X-wing kamikaze-ing at lightspeed into the Supremacy wouldn’t have done nearly the same damage.

If we’re going to do the Physics of Light speed collisions based on what we see on screen, it seems like these collisions are high damage, but super precise. Shooting an X-wing sized craft would likely be even more precise, but we can’t say anything about its force. Likely though I assume it’s like comparing a handgun to a rifle. It all depends on how thick our target is, and where we hit.

How deep we can get into the death star? I actually think we can get to the reactor core to start the chain reaction, but the issue then becomes aiming for it. Likely the navi-computer isn’t designed to hit the reactor, but to get near your destination without hitting a star. Anything smaller than a planet is too unlikely to be targettable. Is the targetting computer precise enough? Maybe, but I don’t feel like it is.

Another wrinkle in this discussion though: We assume she was killed in the attack, but was she actually? I assume the novel says yes, she was, but what Ramifications are there if she wasn’t?

(I’m not for one side or the other of the debate, I just love extrapolating physics)

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flametitan said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

This, especially when the visuals of going to hyperspace imply as much.

Also, people seem to think that this means TLJ is portraying hyperspeed is some kinda superpowerful attack method. But the way I saw it, the hyperspeed was just the fastest and most effective way to get the Raddus in contact with the Supremacy.

As long you don’t care about real life physics, which I 1000% don’t (and neither does Star Wars, nor has it ever, unless you’re referring to some EU hard sci-fi mumbo that has no place in this franchise), I’m honestly not sure why it’s an issue. I get if you’re super into science or whatever and you know that going to lightspeed can do all sorts of wacky stuff and that bothers you, but I don’t think it’s that hard to leave that at the door when you go to a fantasy film. As to this breaking established rules of the franchise, I still have yet to see anyone explain how this is the case, when they’ve literally explained next to nothing about how hyperspace works in the films.

But again, if you want to be bothered by something that shouldn’t reasonably be bothersome, go ahead.

I disagree. To me that’s a philosophy, where in fiction anything goes. So, it doesn’t matter, because fantasy doesn’t adhere to the real physics. However, imo to suspend disbelief fiction has to adhere to some set of rules, and be internally consistent. This is where I have a problem with TLJ on many fronts. In this instance, apart from the fact, that accelerating to lightspeed doesn’t make much physical sense,

By your own definition this shouldn’t be an issue. If Star Wars is fantasy, there should be no reason to not roll with the fact that ships need to accelerate into lightspeed, just like the Delorean (note that every time we see a ship go into lightspeed it looks like they are doing exactly this).

the hyperspace kamikaze proofs a hyperspace projectile is a much more powerful weapon than a torpedo, which begs the question why they are not widely used in the GFFA? The fact that any space battle in the GFFA would have been over in minutes with such weaponary, is bothersome to me, since the technology has been available for decades, and then I’ve not even mentioned the fact, that a kamikaze attack is pretty nonsensical in a universe with such advanced AI as the GFFA.

Like I said, I don’t think the hyperspace is the most important part of this equation. Colliding a ship the size of the Raddus would do a lot of damage no matter what, accelerating to hyperspeed was just the fastest and most efficient way to get it in contact with the Supremacy.

When you consider this, there’s not a single other time in these films where this would have been an effective strategy. Not only does the Raddus look like the biggest ship the Rebellion/Resistance has ever had, there was no point where completely wasting a capitol ship that size would have made any significant difference. The Death Star is pretty much the only time(s) they were trying to take down something big like the Supremacy, but the Death Stars were so big that ramming a ship through them at lightspeed wouldn’t do close to the damage shown done to the Supremacy, and I’d imagine the station would probably be back up and running in a week.

You don’t need a ship like the Raddus. An object the size of a football would have the same impact as detonating a nuclear bomb. An unmanned ship or torpedo the size of an X-wing would to tremendous damage equivalent to dropping a thousand nukes. I think the Death Star would be out of commission permanently, especially if such an attack would be directed at the disk.

Weird that apparently like RJ, you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too. So do you care about real life physics in Star Wars, or not? If you actually only care about consistent in-universe logic as you claim, then this is not an issue. Never before have we seen an object collide via hyperspeed in Star Wars.

In my opinion, it is not reasonable to expect Star Wars to follow the actual laws of physics in every regard, so therefore it is not reasonable to expect Star Wars to follow the laws of physics in regard to lightspeed collision (why this and not the other things it gets wrong?).

Considering TLJ is the first instance of a lightspeed collision, this is where Star Wars is establishing its physics for a lightspeed collision. And in its version, a lightspeed collision clearly does not have the power of “a thousand nukes” or maybe even one nuke.

It clearly has the power of conventional GFFA weapons many times over. The Raddus cut through the Supremacy like butter, which is a ship the size of width of 20 km or 1/6 the size of the Death Star. So, the film itself depicts the energy released as equivalent to the power of many conventional weapons, which in themselves seem quite a bit more powerful than the weapons on planet earth. Hence, the only logical conclusion is, that a hyperspace collision in the GFFA as depicted by TLJ has the power of many nukes.

We see it slice through the wing of the Supremacy, but the majority of the ship is left more or less in tact (though probably out of commission). Considering, as you say, the Supremacy is 1/6 the size of the Death Star, it is not unreasonable to suppose that it might not cause a significant enough damage to be viable method of attack on that station.

As for having the greatest power of any GFFA weapon, sure, but again this is a massive ship we’re talking about, the biggest that’s ever been shown in the Rebel fleet. It is not unreasonable to assume that an X-wing kamikaze-ing at lightspeed into the Supremacy wouldn’t have done nearly the same damage.

If we’re going to do the Physics of Light speed collisions based on what we see on screen, it seems like these collisions are high damage, but super precise. Shooting an X-wing sized craft would likely be even more precise, but we can’t say anything about its force. Likely though I assume it’s like comparing a handgun to a rifle. It all depends on how thick our target is, and where we hit.

How deep we can get into the death star? I actually think we can get to the reactor core to start the chain reaction, but the issue then becomes aiming for it. Likely the navi-computer isn’t designed to hit the reactor, but to get near your destination without hitting a star. Anything smaller than a planet is too unlikely to be targettable. Is the targetting computer precise enough? Maybe, but I don’t feel like it is.

Another wrinkle in this discussion though: We assume she was killed in the attack, but was she actually? I assume the novel says yes, she was, but what Ramifications are there if she wasn’t?

(I’m not for one side or the other of the debate, I just love extrapolating physics)

she would be traveling at relativistic speed, so maybe we can have a ‘the search for Holdo’ episode where we find and save her before she had time to die?

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Interesting speculations. In my mind this all goes back to the mindset of whether you’re open to new possibilities or not. Hyperspace has been ill-defined enough in this franchise for there to be a sort of gap in possibilities where this can happen. The fact that it’s never happened before doesn’t mean that makes this impossible, it just tells you what is possible with this power and what isn’t. So while before we had no idea if hyperspace could be weaponized, now we know it can be effective is specific situations, but presumably not a course of action worth exploring in other situations.

From my perspective, it’s not hard to see how the logic of this works. Honestly, it seems to me like you have to bend over backwards to try to be bothered be it, but if people want to, that’s up to them I suppose.

(as for Holdo’s fate, as I’ve said I’m pretty sure what happened here was the Raddus impacted with the Supremacy before it enter hyperspace.)

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DominicCobb said:

Interesting speculations. In my mind this all goes back to the mindset of whether you’re open to new possibilities or not. Hyperspace has been ill-defined enough in this franchise for there to be a sort of gap in possibilities where this can happen. The fact that it’s never happened before doesn’t mean that makes this impossible, it just tells you what is possible with this power and what isn’t. So while before we had no idea if hyperspace could be weaponized, now we know it can be effective is specific situations, but presumably not a course of action worth exploring in other situations.

From my perspective, it’s not hard to see how the logic of this works. Honestly, it seems to me like you have to bend over backwards to try to be bothered be it, but if people want to, that’s up to them I suppose.

(as for Holdo’s fate, as I’ve said I’m pretty sure what happened here was the Raddus impacted with the Supremacy before it enter hyperspace.)

i think this is a good post.

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DominicCobb said:

Interesting speculations. In my mind this all goes back to the mindset of whether you’re open to new possibilities or not. Hyperspace has been ill-defined enough in this franchise for there to be a sort of gap in possibilities where this can happen. The fact that it’s never happened before doesn’t mean that makes this impossible, it just tells you what is possible with this power and what isn’t. So while before we had no idea if hyperspace could be weaponized, now we know it can be effective is specific situations, but presumably not a course of action worth exploring in other situations.

From my perspective, it’s not hard to see how the logic of this works. Honestly, it seems to me like you have to bend over backwards to try to be bothered be it, but if people want to, that’s up to them I suppose.

(as for Holdo’s fate, as I’ve said I’m pretty sure what happened here was the Raddus impacted with the Supremacy before it enter hyperspace.)

It depends. I like internal consistency in my worlds. Harry Potter and the Cursed
Child’s handling of time travel, as an example, goes against what prior books established, and it irks me to no end. Meanwhile, for Star Wars and hyperspace ramming, it’s entirely out of the blue, with nothing before it to compare to. I can easily see why it’s divisive. It has no rules to compare to; all we have to go by is what we’ve seen on screen (really effective), and the fact that it’s never been attempted before. Most likely it’s unreliable for some reason, but why? We can speculate all we want, but we don’t have enough information to work with.

TLJ doesn’t need to tell us everything, it can tell its own thing. Really, it has more ramifications for other works in the franchise, which are shackled with treating the world like a real place with some kind of rules governing it.

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ChainsawAsh said:

For what it’s worth, in the novelization, Poe sets a hyperspace entry point before Leia and Holdo retake command of the ship. That entry point is never changed, so when Holdo is alone on the ship waiting to die, she notices it - and because the ships have kept moving that whole time, the entry point is now behind the First Order fleet. That’s what gives her the idea to try it - because the ship will be accelerating to near lightspeed prior to hitting the hyperspace entry point.

So the “hyperspace ramming” actually occurs before the ship enters hyperspace, while the ship is accelerating to near-lightspeed in realspace.

It was basically her seeing where the entry point was plotted in relation to the position of the fleet, getting the idea, and going “Huh, wonder if this will work? Can’t hurt to try since I’m dead at this point anyway.”

Would have been hilarious if the jump was successful. The expressions on the faces of Hux, Leia, and Poe would have been priceless.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

ChainsawAsh said:

For what it’s worth, in the novelization, Poe sets a hyperspace entry point before Leia and Holdo retake command of the ship. That entry point is never changed, so when Holdo is alone on the ship waiting to die, she notices it - and because the ships have kept moving that whole time, the entry point is now behind the First Order fleet. That’s what gives her the idea to try it - because the ship will be accelerating to near lightspeed prior to hitting the hyperspace entry point.

So the “hyperspace ramming” actually occurs before the ship enters hyperspace, while the ship is accelerating to near-lightspeed in realspace.

It was basically her seeing where the entry point was plotted in relation to the position of the fleet, getting the idea, and going “Huh, wonder if this will work? Can’t hurt to try since I’m dead at this point anyway.”

Would have been hilarious if the jump was successful. The expressions on the faces of Hux, Leia, and Poe would have been priceless.

Haha, so Holdo gets away and the First Order fleet is intact and able to finish wiping out the fleeing ships? Man, she would’ve felt really shitty when she came out of hyperspace and learned what happened…

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DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

This, especially when the visuals of going to hyperspace imply as much.

Also, people seem to think that this means TLJ is portraying hyperspeed is some kinda superpowerful attack method. But the way I saw it, the hyperspeed was just the fastest and most effective way to get the Raddus in contact with the Supremacy.

As long you don’t care about real life physics, which I 1000% don’t (and neither does Star Wars, nor has it ever, unless you’re referring to some EU hard sci-fi mumbo that has no place in this franchise), I’m honestly not sure why it’s an issue. I get if you’re super into science or whatever and you know that going to lightspeed can do all sorts of wacky stuff and that bothers you, but I don’t think it’s that hard to leave that at the door when you go to a fantasy film. As to this breaking established rules of the franchise, I still have yet to see anyone explain how this is the case, when they’ve literally explained next to nothing about how hyperspace works in the films.

But again, if you want to be bothered by something that shouldn’t reasonably be bothersome, go ahead.

I disagree. To me that’s a philosophy, where in fiction anything goes. So, it doesn’t matter, because fantasy doesn’t adhere to the real physics. However, imo to suspend disbelief fiction has to adhere to some set of rules, and be internally consistent. This is where I have a problem with TLJ on many fronts. In this instance, apart from the fact, that accelerating to lightspeed doesn’t make much physical sense,

By your own definition this shouldn’t be an issue. If Star Wars is fantasy, there should be no reason to not roll with the fact that ships need to accelerate into lightspeed, just like the Delorean (note that every time we see a ship go into lightspeed it looks like they are doing exactly this).

the hyperspace kamikaze proofs a hyperspace projectile is a much more powerful weapon than a torpedo, which begs the question why they are not widely used in the GFFA? The fact that any space battle in the GFFA would have been over in minutes with such weaponary, is bothersome to me, since the technology has been available for decades, and then I’ve not even mentioned the fact, that a kamikaze attack is pretty nonsensical in a universe with such advanced AI as the GFFA.

Like I said, I don’t think the hyperspace is the most important part of this equation. Colliding a ship the size of the Raddus would do a lot of damage no matter what, accelerating to hyperspeed was just the fastest and most efficient way to get it in contact with the Supremacy.

When you consider this, there’s not a single other time in these films where this would have been an effective strategy. Not only does the Raddus look like the biggest ship the Rebellion/Resistance has ever had, there was no point where completely wasting a capitol ship that size would have made any significant difference. The Death Star is pretty much the only time(s) they were trying to take down something big like the Supremacy, but the Death Stars were so big that ramming a ship through them at lightspeed wouldn’t do close to the damage shown done to the Supremacy, and I’d imagine the station would probably be back up and running in a week.

I don’t think you’ve fully considered how hyperspace ramming would affect literally every engagement in Star Wars.

From the prequels:
-A single Naboo fighter would surely have been able to take out the droid control ship in Episode 1.
-An army of Separatist droids, already able to pilot ships as seen in Episodes 1 and 2, would surely have made short work of any Republic capital ships during the entirety of the Clone Wars due to them being programmed to kill with no thought to their survival.

From Rebels, and the OT:
-Any group of fighters pinned down by a non-Interdictor class Imperial ship would have a method of escaping at the cost of only a single fighter.
-Any single ship with a hyperdrive, piloted by someone desperate or with nothing left to lose, would be a deadly threat against any pursuing ship of appreciable size. Vader would never have pursued the Tantive without Interdictor support if he knew that it might be able to ram his bridge at the speed of light. Ditto for pretty much every pursuit of the Falcon in the trilogy.
-Even fighters would be a threat against the Death Star if they attacked the emitter dish at light speed. A single capital ship would probably be enough to disable the weapon and cause massive damage to the rest of the station.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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This is again under the assumption that lightspeed ramming turns things to swiss cheese or whatever. But the way it’s depicted in the film it doesn’t seem like the lightspeed is necessarily the most important element to what would be massive destruction from the collision anyway. Why didn’t the Naboo fighters lightspeed kamikaze? Well why didn’t they just plain old kamikaze? Surely that’d cause some serious damage too.

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DominicCobb said:

This is again under the assumption that lightspeed ramming turns things to swiss cheese or whatever. But the way it’s depicted in the film it doesn’t seem like the lightspeed is necessarily the most important element to what would be massive destruction from the collision anyway. Why didn’t the Naboo fighters lightspeed kamikaze? Well why didn’t they just plain old kamikaze? Surely that’d cause some serious damage too.

Because to kamikaze is a last resort. Holdo was desperate to see the mission through. The transports couldn’t go back to the Raddus. They were being take down one by one. Also the Raddus is huge: 3,438.37 meters. That’s bigger than Home One from Jedi.

It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher

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lovelikewinter said:

DominicCobb said:

This is again under the assumption that lightspeed ramming turns things to swiss cheese or whatever. But the way it’s depicted in the film it doesn’t seem like the lightspeed is necessarily the most important element to what would be massive destruction from the collision anyway. Why didn’t the Naboo fighters lightspeed kamikaze? Well why didn’t they just plain old kamikaze? Surely that’d cause some serious damage too.

Because to kamikaze is a last resort. Holdo was desperate to see the mission through. The transports couldn’t go back to the Raddus. They were being take down one by one. Also the Raddus is huge: 3,438.37 meters. That’s bigger than Home One from Jedi.

I know, it was a rhetorical question, I agree.

Funny how soon we forget how the Executor was brought down, and yet we never asked why that strategy wasn’t used more often (for the record, I think that scene is ridiculous).

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I sometimes have a hard time telling when people are joking online. There should be a font for that.

I was thinking that the Last Jedi has the same issue Return of the Jedi has. The parts dealing with the Force and the Skywalkers are amazing, but it does leave the other characters a bit out of the loop. Rian tried to give Finn and Poe more to do than Han and Leia in ROTJ.

It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher