The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 192

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

And I still hold the opinion that Luke’s Jedi order would be completely different from the one seen in the prequel trilogy, because he was trained by a hippie Obi-Wan and an exiled much wiser Yoda - both of them being masters that learned from their mistakes and trained Luke differently. Luke was a Qui-Gon like Jedi, imo. Not a Obi-Wan or a Yoda.

I’m sure Luke’s Jedi order was quite different because the circumstances were of course quite different. Which is probably what lead him to believe even more strongly that the mere concept of the Jedi needed to end.

I agree with this one.

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

TV’s Frink said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

We can argue about #rotjpigmen all day, but this is an open-and-shut case.

Hahahahahaha.

I was hoping someone would appreciate that 😄 Had to be you.

It was funny but not “haha” funny.

In other words, not why I was laughing.

Oh hey look this is the new summary of the thread so far.

I win.

Unfortunately inadmissible: it was not at the top of the page.

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

Why would Rey even know about Anakin’s bedside conversion? I can’t imagine that any rebel worth their salt would be impressed by the notion that Darth Vader’s soul was saved at the last minute. How did this so-called legend spread? And why?
It would’ve been so much better if Rey had simply said “you defeated the Emperor at the battle of Endor!” and Luke had responded with “well, it was a little more complicated than that”. Having the whole Vader/Anakin story become legend makes no sense to me.

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

Both clone wars cartoons are amazing. Not only that, but if we’re making OT Luke a legend, then certainly PT Anakin should be a legend too. I guess he wasn’t because of the Empire, so that’s ok. Still, Luke’s legend doesn’t seem to be damaged by the FO being in power, so…

But ok, I misinterpreted your original reply. Yes, Luke was pretty brave during the OT, I’ll give you that.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

I’ll also give you this one - that the idea of Luke Skywalker is now more powerful and inspiring than Luke himself, but that’s kind of sad to me, because I really liked his character and looked up to him. Not to the perfect hero, but to the hero that overcame his challenges and learned from his failures. That guy was inspiring, and he wasn’t even a legend. Oh well.

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Dre answered this one much better than I could.

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

By that logic, Obi Wan and Yoda are even bigger failures. 😉

They are failures for not recognizing the risk Anakin presented, and for failing to stop Palpatine, but they at least did everything in their power to reverse the situation. In my view Luke is a far bigger failure, for not even attempting to fix his mistake, and refusing to help even when he was asked in a most desperate hour. He came around it the end, but only when the situation had completely spun out of control, something that might not have happened, if he had acted like a true Jedi years earlier.

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

By that logic, Obi Wan and Yoda are even bigger failures. 😉

Both Obi-Wan and Yoda did everything they could to try to stop the Empire before it was too late. That on itself is already enough to distinguish them from Luke. They did everything they could, and Luke did nothing.

Obi-Wan did everything he could in ANH and succeeded in his mission, which was to initiate Luke as a Jedi and deliver R2 to the Rebels.

Yoda also did everything he could to make Luke the most capable Jedi ever.

Pretty different from Luke huh?

Edit: both Yoda and Obi-Wan failed though, and both of them admit it in the end of RotS.

“I have failed you Anakin. I have failed you.”
“Failed, have I […].”

SilverWook said:

They basically hid for twenty years. Why not Hyperspace kamikaze a star cruiser into Palpatine’s summer palace or something? 😛

Because before TLJ you needed a bit more than a single ship, thirty rebels, and some hope and inspiration to bring down tyranny. 😛

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

If you choose to interpret it that (wrong) way that’s your prerogative. But the film (and it’s ending especially) is explicitly about the success of Luke’s legacy, and how that has inspired the galaxy.

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

Both clone wars cartoons are amazing. Not only that, but if we’re making OT Luke a legend, then certainly PT Anakin should be a legend too. I guess he wasn’t because of the Empire, so that’s ok. Still, Luke’s legend doesn’t seem to be damaged by the FO being in power, so…

But ok, I misinterpreted your original reply. Yes, Luke was pretty brave during the OT, I’ll give you that.

I’m sorry, based on your post I thought we were only counting the films. If we count stuff outside the films then Luke’s achievements are surely more than just the Death Star, Hoth, and Jabba’s palace. And I do think Anakin was a legend (at least he was according to Red leader in that deleted scene).

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

I’ll also give you this one - that the idea of Luke Skywalker is now more powerful and inspiring than Luke himself, but that’s kind of sad to me, because I really liked his character and looked up to him.

Okay but

Not to the perfect hero, but to the hero that overcame his challenges and learned from his failures.

This describes Luke in TLJ.

Collipso said:

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

By that logic, Obi Wan and Yoda are even bigger failures. 😉

Both Obi-Wan and Yoda did everything they could to try to stop the Empire before it was too late. That on itself is already enough to distinguish them from Luke. They did everything they could, and Luke did nothing.

Did they? According to ROTS Obi-wan left Anakin alive to become Darth Vader. According to the OT… all they did was hide themselves and the babies.

Luke did do something, it’s just that his “something” was literally “nothing.” As in, he actively picked “nothing” as a solution.

Obi-Wan did everything he could in ANH and succeeded in his mission, which was to initiate Luke as a Jedi and deliver R2 to the Rebels.

Yoda also did everything he could to make Luke the most capable Jedi ever.

Pretty different from Luke huh?

No, honestly not that different from Luke at all. The entire mission of the Resistance up till the end of TLJ is to find Luke to bring back the Jedi and restore hope in the galaxy. Both of those are accomplished at the end of the film by Luke and his pupil, Rey. Obviously Rey is not a typical pupil, but that is part of a different point altogether.

DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

By that logic, Obi Wan and Yoda are even bigger failures. 😉

They are failures for not recognizing the risk Anakin presented, and for failing to stop Palpatine, but they at least did everything in their power to reverse the situation. In my view Luke is a far bigger failure, for not even attempting to fix his mistake, and refusing to help even when he was asked in a most desperate hour. He came around it the end, but only when the situation had completely spun out of control, something that might not have happened, if he had acted like a true Jedi years earlier.

Well, this would devolve into a lot of prequel talk, but let’s just say that Obi-wan, Yoda, and Mace are responsible for Anakin’s fall. It was a failure to teach him how to handle his emotions. Luke thinks he made the same mistake with Ben, but the conversation between Han and Leia clearly shows that Ben was troubled long before training with Luke. Luke did fail to see the darkness in Ben much as the PT Jedi failed to sense Palpatine and Anakin’s weakness.

As for Luke’s fame post ROTJ, the galaxy would want to know how Vader and the Emperor died. And I’m sure Han and Leia had a hand in spreading the word. As has been pointed out before, this is the stuff of legends. But TFA made it clear that the events of the OT were widely known. Rey heard about them on Jakku.

Luke was a living legend, the man who destroyed the Death Star, redeemed Darth Vader, and witnessed the death of the Emperor, the very end of the empire. That would not be an easy role. But a necessary one to rebuild the Jedi. Palpatine had done a damn fine PR job of destroying the Jedi and undoing that would be necessary. Luke’s exploits would go a long way. So it makes perfect sense for the Galaxy to know about what went on in that tower on the second Death Star. So Luke becomes a legend. Eventually he takes on a dozen students only to have it all go to shit thanks to the darkness he didn’t see in his nephew until it was too late.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

If you choose to interpret it that (wrong) way that’s your prerogative. But the film (and it’s ending especially) is explicitly about the success of Luke’s legacy, and how that has inspired the galaxy.

No, the film is explicit in the success of Luke’s effort to inspire hope in a terrible situation, he was party responsible for. This does not create a legacy of success, it creates a glimmer of hope in a greater legacy of failure.

If a police force sit on their behinds, and allow a group of criminals to go on a killing spree, they have failed in their duties, even if they belatedly see the error of their ways, and attempt to bring them to justice, or more accurately inspire others to do it for them.

Obi-Wan did everything he could in ANH and succeeded in his mission, which was to initiate Luke as a Jedi and deliver R2 to the Rebels.

Yoda also did everything he could to make Luke the most capable Jedi ever.

Pretty different from Luke huh?

No, honestly not that different from Luke at all. The entire mission of the Resistance up till the end of TLJ is to find Luke to bring back the Jedi and restore hope in the galaxy. Both of those are accomplished at the end of the film by Luke and his pupil, Rey. Obviously Rey is not a typical pupil, but that is part of a different point altogether.

It’s entirely different. When Luke abandoned the galaxy, the New Republic was still in full control, and the FO a rump state hiding in the unknown regions. Luke had a far more favourable position than Obi-Wan and Yoda, who were on the run of a tyrannical regime, who controlled the GFFA. Luke’s failure is in the fact, that he didn’t act to stop the FO’s rising power, and the terrible suffering that ensued. The fact that he at least helped to provide some hope of undoing his past mistakes, does not alter this fact.

I have a strange Groundhog Day feeling.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

If you choose to interpret it that (wrong) way that’s your prerogative. But the film (and it’s ending especially) is explicitly about the success of Luke’s legacy, and how that has inspired the galaxy.

No, the film is explicit in the success of Luke’s effort to inspire hope in a terrible situation he was party responsible for. This does not create a legacy of success, it creates a glimmer of hope in a legacy of failure.

If a police force sit on their behinds, and allow a group of criminals to go on a killing spree, they have failed in their duties, even if they belatedly see the error of their ways, and attempt to bring them to justice, or more accurately inspire others to do it for them.

I don’t really think it’s fair to blame the rise of the First Order on Luke.

And the films don’t even really suggest that. The point is that the dark side always comes back. You can’t always stop it from rearing it’s ugly head, what’s important is that there’s hope you can defeat it once again.

Obi-Wan did everything he could in ANH and succeeded in his mission, which was to initiate Luke as a Jedi and deliver R2 to the Rebels.

Yoda also did everything he could to make Luke the most capable Jedi ever.

Pretty different from Luke huh?

No, honestly not that different from Luke at all. The entire mission of the Resistance up till the end of TLJ is to find Luke to bring back the Jedi and restore hope in the galaxy. Both of those are accomplished at the end of the film by Luke and his pupil, Rey. Obviously Rey is not a typical pupil, but that is part of a different point altogether.

It’s entirely different. When Luke abandoned the galaxy, the New Republic was still in full control, and the FO a rump state hiding in the unknown regions. Luke had a far more favourable position than Obi-Wan and Yoda, who were on the run of a tyrannical regime, who controlled the GFFA. Luke’s failure is in the fact, that he didn’t act to stop the FO’s rising power, and the terrible suffering that ensued. The fact that he at least helped to provide some hope of undoing his past mistakes, does not alter this fact.

If anything Obi-wan and Yoda look worse. There was an entire army of Jedi and they couldn’t stop two Sith (give or take) from taking control. When Ben burns down the temple, it’s just Luke against Snoke, Kylo, and the rest of the Knights of Ren. Not to mention you’re right, the New Republic was in full control when Luke abandoned them, which means he had already closed himself off from the Force when the First Order rose to prominence. When Rey tells Luke that the FO will control the major systems soon, it’s news to him. So in his mind he didn’t realize the need for him was as dire as it was (not to mention, of course, his belief that he wouldn’t be any help).

ZigZig said:

I have a strange Groundhog Day feeling.

Same. It just struck me I honestly don’t know what the fuck I’m doing.

It’s all there in the film. If you don’t like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it works for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

If you choose to interpret it that (wrong) way that’s your prerogative. But the film (and it’s ending especially) is explicitly about the success of Luke’s legacy, and how that has inspired the galaxy.

No, the film is explicit in the success of Luke’s effort to inspire hope in a terrible situation he was party responsible for. This does not create a legacy of success, it creates a glimmer of hope in a legacy of failure.

If a police force sit on their behinds, and allow a group of criminals to go on a killing spree, they have failed in their duties, even if they belatedly see the error of their ways, and attempt to bring them to justice, or more accurately inspire others to do it for them.

I don’t really think it’s fair to blame the rise of the First Order on Luke.

And the films don’t even really suggest that. The point is that the dark side always comes back. You can’t always stop it from rearing it’s ugly head, what’s important is that there’s hope you can defeat it once again.

The majority of the responsibility isn’t on Luke. However, it is the responsibility of a Jedi to guard peace and justice. The dark side can always come back, but it is a Jedi´s responsibility to prevent that from happening, or if it manages to rise again, do everything in his or her power to defeat it. Luke didn´t live up to that responsibility.

DominicCobb said:

ZigZig said:

I have a strange Groundhog Day feeling.

Same. It just struck me I honestly don’t know what the fuck I’m doing.

It’s all there in the film. If you don’t like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it works for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

Just because you have an opinion, doesn´t mean it´s right. Just because it works for you, doesn´t imply there´s some truth that everyone else is missing.

I might argue you are ignoring obvious problems with the film. It’s all there in the film. If you like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it ruins the film for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

That like yours would be a fallacious argument.

One thing I do agree with is, that we´re going around in circles, which is sort of pointless.

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

If you choose to interpret it that (wrong) way that’s your prerogative. But the film (and it’s ending especially) is explicitly about the success of Luke’s legacy, and how that has inspired the galaxy.

No, the film is explicit in the success of Luke’s effort to inspire hope in a terrible situation he was party responsible for. This does not create a legacy of success, it creates a glimmer of hope in a legacy of failure.

If a police force sit on their behinds, and allow a group of criminals to go on a killing spree, they have failed in their duties, even if they belatedly see the error of their ways, and attempt to bring them to justice, or more accurately inspire others to do it for them.

I don’t really think it’s fair to blame the rise of the First Order on Luke.

And the films don’t even really suggest that. The point is that the dark side always comes back. You can’t always stop it from rearing it’s ugly head, what’s important is that there’s hope you can defeat it once again.

The majority of the responsibility isn’t on Luke. However, it is the responsibility of a Jedi to guard peace and justice. The dark side can always come back, but it is a Jedi´s responsibility to prevent that from happening, or if it manages to rise again, do everything in his or her power to defeat it. Luke didn´t live up to that responsibility.

I thought it was to use the Force for knowledge and defense never for attack…

Yes, Luke should have defended the peoples, and principles of the New Republic, which he didn’t. It’s not about attacking the FO. It’s about protecting peace and justice. War is a final resort, when it is the only option for preventing another tyranny.

Besides, Jedi or not, I think it would be out of character for Luke post-ROTJ to wage a war just because of visions. That’s what screwed him over in ESB and in the fleeting moments he saw what Ben could become. His arc in the OT was to become less about looking to the future (horizon) and “rushing into battle.”

It’s not about waging war, or rushing into battle. It’s about preparing for the worst, and subverting the efforts by the FO to bring down the New Republic, in the defense of peace and justice.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ZigZig said:

I have a strange Groundhog Day feeling.

Same. It just struck me I honestly don’t know what the fuck I’m doing.

It’s all there in the film. If you don’t like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it works for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

Just because you have an opinion, doesn´t mean it´s right. Just because it works for you, doesn´t imply there´s some truth that everyone else is missing.

I might argue you are ignoring obvious problems with the film. It’s all there in the film. If you like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it ruins the film for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

That like yours would be a fallacious argument.

One thing I do agree with is, that we´re going around in circles, which is sort of pointless.

I never said I was right. I’m just saying that most of the stuff I keep arguing about is justified in the film itself. There’s nothing wrong with not accepting something the film presents or wishing it had taken a fundamentally different route. I really mean it, that’s fine. But I can’t keep arguing like this, I’m basically just explaining the movie (and don’t take this to mean that I think you didn’t get the movie, that’s not what I’m saying! as for the “obvious problems,” I didn’t catch barely any at all until I logged on here, so I guess in this regard I’m the one who “didn’t get it” haha).

Like I said, if the direction didn’t work for you, fine, there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m still trying to accept that I can’t change that (for me this isn’t about being “right,” I just want people to see why this is a good movie so they can enjoy it). It worked for me, and I’d wager it’d be near impossible for anyone to change that (certainly now after having heard every possible complaint for the past month). So yeah, I think we really are going pointlessly in circles.