tsmspace

So,

I was watching a scott manley about starlink sattelite deployment, and I just couldn’t help but thinking how much that works exactly how the resistance bomber scene would work like in a realistic physics environment.

I mean, I really think TLJ was intended for us to imagine realistic physics star wars, and this scene is another example. (because it would work exactly how they played it out in the film, I don’t even understand why they published a book that said artificial gravity dropped the bombs, a normal realistic physics deployment makes perfect sense, would work like that exactly, and is much much cooler)

So,

there are a lot of star wars stories by now.

I think there should be a project that assembles and sorts them into universes, and allows for people to contribute their own stories, which are also subsequently sorted into universes.

So for example, there’s the old canon, there’s the disney canon, and there’s the original trilogy, which didn’t include the original canon, it’s just that as time went on people kept writing stories so the got accepted.

Also, lots of people either wish crucial plot points or other aspects would change, and universes could be created where these variations can be presented.

I imagine either a forum, with sub-threads upon sub-threads to organize everything, or ultimately a github style platform.

I have some other arguments. Star Wars should be public domain. I should be able to use certain words like “lightsaber” in any story without providing context. I should be able to have a story that has “x-wings” without trying to make them pretty close but a little different because of copyright, and so on and so forth. (jedi, luke skywalker, and so on). This is because Star Wars is not simply some franchise, and no one in the franchise can take responsibility for it. Star Wars is a world culture, and is much bigger than disney. Disney has every right to make Star Wars movies, and support a particular story-verse, but does not have the right to limit the creativity of others so inspired by Star Wars. Further, disney would be able to make use of the open-source database of story evolution that such a constantly updated set of stories would provide, so their movies wouldn’t be so terrible. Because although in some ways their movies have merit, they also are terrible. If they committed to continuously remaking every film they’ve produced so far, releasing updates and changes as they have them, I could understand the awful quality of those films, but they didn’t. THey just blank blank into a tree and grew a bloomin idiot.

For me, it’s about inertial thrust physics, and the original trilogy as produced by George Lucas. I imagine the stories being re-interpreted as though the engines are rockets, and everything has to happen like the engines are rockets. So fighter battles would be crazy, hard to show, and require viewers to at least have simulator experience to understand, crucial moments in the films (such as the first death star assault) would have crucial bits of physics to consider, which would be what makes them so great. If there arises problems with the physics, a project could be undertaken by contributors to work out the various ways the problem could be solved, and versions could be organized, until one version or a few of them rise to the top of both popularity and cohesiveness with other critical story-points.

Importantly, it would be every fan working together to iron out the best possible stories that star wars could have been, as well as discover the other possible stories that should be a part of our culture, as well as offer the opportunity for the tales that aren’t star wars really, but are critically inspired by it, to be assembled. (for some people, it was just lightsabers, for others, they needed yoda, but nothing else fit).

So, anyway. Long Live the Original Trilogy and the freedom of the imagination it was designed to offer. I say it is time to put the modern productions in their place, just another fork, just another version number, just another wonton release with some degree of value that the community could chew on before they ultimately splice together the REAL story, a better one.

Zachary VIII said:

I would like for more media depicting the guerrilla aspect of the Rebels. The Jedda city skirmish in Rogue One was a pretty good example.

Im talking more like just trooper interactions with eachother. In the outtakes of 4, luke meets biggs fresh out of the academy, who says “people are saying things” , and “theres a lot of support for the rebellion”.

In games of attrition like starcraft2, it is a common practice to “throw away marines”, i would imagine trooper training leaving attrition out of the lesson plan…

Im pretty sure it was a regular theme, defection was a major theme from the old TIE fighter game, and they DID defect during sorties in that game… however they dont use “expected losses” as the primary driver for defection, and didnt keep expected losses as a secret for the script. (Actually, maybe they did but i dont recall). … anyway, defection is a big theme, han solo is a defector of sorts, just not to a side, he just decided he could make a living elsewhere and didnt feel the empire met his values.

I was watching an Infinity Battlescape stream, (it looks fun I think I’m going to play it), and I was thinking about fighter mindsets, and commander strategy,

So basically the theme is, (pilots know this), fleet commanders will regularly need to use fighters in sacrificial ways, where the fighter pilots are certainly doomed, but it takes valuable time to fight them, so they can allow the Star Destroyers more time to maneuver… Fighter pilots live their lives under a blanket of secrecy, where they don’t even know they are really at war, and they CERTAINLY don’t know how they are being used in combat, in order to maintain critical obedience when fighters are ordered to go be cannon fodder.

Fighter pilots talk about their disappearing comrades, and inherently understand the battlefield at times, leading to rather frequent battlefield defection. (so much , in fact, that the rebels bank on it, often delaying the slaughter to give defectors a chance to show their intention and avoid the battle) , A successful rebel fight shows them returning to base with more pilots than they started with, as so many imperial pilots are desperate to do anything besides sit between two batteries of turbo-lasers blasting at each-other just to be in the way.

Imperial commanders even intentionally attack their own squadrons when they feel it might happen., further fragmenting the attitudes of the imperial soldiers.

In short, just like a starcraft2 match where so many infantry need to stand their ground for the commander to survive, fighter pilots have no choice but to fly directly to their certain death, often with a long time to see it coming, in order for the Imperial commanders plan to work.

Rebels are often living in secrecy, and although many rebels die in battle, they don’t have the same victory conditions, they don’t have to take the battlefield to be successful, they merely need to manage some distraction until illicit shipments get through, or to destroy a key piece of electronics to slow down some infrastructure project that will cost the rebellion a system. They aren’t a military, just individuals within the empire trying to avoid a criminal record.

Imperials, however, are often very sympathetic to rebels, they are “just another guy” if you meet them one on one. The highest levels of leadership within the empire are a mystery to them, and they can see the faces they know are not actually in charge of the most unpopular actions the empire takes. Most of the leaders they actually see or hear from are merely regional representatives discussing tax laws or police enforcing laws. Devestating Imperial action takes place with no apparent official leader, and so many Imperial pilots and soldiers die sometimes, with no explanation as to what they are fighting for, that it starts to be attractive for pilots to just risk friendly fire to try and simply fly away from the battlefield , ditch their fighter by ejecting, and signal for a rebel pickup. Sometimes, halfway through the battle, they just attack their own commander, knowing it’s the only way they can survive.

Depheros said:

Is it April 1st already?

here, so like this basically

https://www.slideshare.net/troyschmidt31/resistance-bomber-scene-newtonian-179048014

Mocata said:

Planes would have a lot harder time moving like that without wheels though.

Well sure but those engines dont do any other vectoring (like newer fighters do), so, blending the concepts you might feel a ship that just flies in and out of planet-based stations would have the thrust figures to hover without such complex exhaust systems as a harrier or similar.

NeverarGreat said:

That video is cool, I’ve never seen a plane do that.

I was thinking about a similar issue with the Falcon in ANH where Han says ‘Full reverse’. It is never shown how the Falcon goes in reverse, but I expect it would have to be something along these lines where the plates along the engine move down and angle the thrust forward.

So basically, my approach in this case is to run with the idea that G.L. and company would have wanted more moving parts on their sets, but they were simply limited in this respect. Another one is zero-g. I’m pretty sure that if filming zero-g scenes were available, they probably would have done so. Today’s “Star Wars Lore” is filled with all kinds of details that authors and enthusiasts filled in, which formed this “cannon universe” , which disney does or does not follow depending on the detail, and many of these details are things like, how does everyone have gravity in their fighter, how do speeders float, what is that prop on someones belt, etc.

Since it’s supposed to just be a cheeseball movie set, with plenty of coolfactor if you are willing to be understanding, it’s fun and entertaining for me, just like more popular fantasizers, to pitch ideas on how things might “really be”. In order to do that, I have to ignore “canon” completely. I don’t agree with even one lightsaber concept (i have my own), and I just think there’s not gravity for so many scenes that had gravity. And effective recently, I’ve decided that the engines in the film just work like normal engines today. Some are obviously able to double as jets or rockets, but mostly engines in Star Wars are just rockets.

So, I’ve basically decided that the x-wing, exactly how it looks in the original trilogy, could land exactly as portrayed in the original trilogy, WITH realistic physics.

THe only missing piece is exactly the engineering of the engine, and importantly what sort of moving parts it has. (thrust vectoring).

I have two pieces of media, one video and one picture.

Basically, however, the x-wing can direct its thrust so that it is pushing both up and back on the top, and forward and down on the back, and hold its orientation (flat, landing on the landing gear), to achieve a nice hover. Imagine holding a board by one end, but still level and flat. (you pull back on the top fingers, and push up and inward on the bottom fingers)

Here is the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zkxh903s_w

and here is the picture

http://spacesimcentral.com/wp-content/uploads/wpforo/attachments/22719/thumbnail/1-xwing-landing.png

my only problems with the edit are that they showcase some scenes that I actually was disappointed with when I first saw the movies.

For some of said scenes I later became “understanding”, because I realize that some people are more focused on the psychology of the plots involved, and such, but as someone who is MUCH more interested in daydreaming about fantastic technology and fantastic war, I tended to prefer the approach of the original trilogy, and surprisingly the last jedi, which was to ASSUME that the movie looked goofy and stage-like, and play on that, instead of trying to completely answer a call for realistic representation of tech and action.

Modern special effects allowed producers to really make SOME very convincing scenes, but this was over-ruled by other aspects of film-making, like comedy, and romance acting. (actually all acting, which is completely different than effects and fantastic display) , The Last Jedi very clearly tried to be a “film-play”, just like the original trilogy, where viewers are almost explicitly instructed to take a second to remember it’s a set before the scene rolls.

Please understand that what I’m saying is that making movies is very hard, and the movies, simply put, are not finished. Sometimes I think a few fan films are actually better than the entire series of movies,. This particular edit is different, being more like a summary than a separate inspired story, but even this film is like that. I would rather watch this edit than any of the films represented, because so many times during the full movies I will wish something were different. With an edit like this, I can just imagine and fill the gaps how I want to. !!

anyway, I like the return of the Emperor, but I would make the emperor a little differently.

I would personally focus on the fact that massive infrastructure projects result in population growth, and portray the emperor as an individual who is working hard to provide for the majority of the future, by creating infrastructure that will support them. If you are given a choice, to choose if one person you will never meet will die, or 5 people you will never meet will die, I think most people will choose to keep the larger number alive, ESPECIALLY if that’s the entire information available. Most people would navigate a constant stream of “choose more or less people to survive” by simply selecting “more people survive” every single time. The emperor, in his magnificent wisdom, can see very clearly more often than anyone else when he makes the decision correctly (which is hard to predict in the real world of infrastructure development). In practice, when a leader is surrounded by the people who are the lower number of survivors, and is forced to choose between more or less survivors, it will matter that the lower number of survivors is the leaders immediate company. Fortunately for Emperor Palpatine, he did not come from this elite class, and instead rose to power during the culmination of a technological plateau, where technology had not advanced much, but instead the same infrastructure and technology proliferated around the galaxy. Suddenly it was time for infrastructure to start to upgrade significantly and to begin proliferating a new generation of technology, but there was no clear leader for this new upgrade. The emperor, however, gained support from the lower classes by causing the proliferation of infrastructure to halt, and then gained support of the upper classes by swearing allegiance to the spread of new technology, meanwhile rising from a place that was separate from the upper-classpeople, giving him no bias towards them when making decisions, and clearing his mind to see much more plainly when he would choose for the better of the future majority.

The Emperor never had an evil day in his life, but he could see all around him people who’s future would be bleak, or see them die in misery, for the betterment of the growth of the population. He valued so much, the life of everyman, that he could never choose to preserve one famous wealthy individual in favor of several poverty stricken ethnic slaves. The Emperor strove to bring the opportunities of infrastructure access to all citizens of the Galactic Empire regardless of their financial birthright. It is unfortunate that so many tribal and financial leaders around the Galaxy had made their way through oppression of their peoples, and strove to secretly promote resistance while publicly supporting the Empire. It is because of this corruption that so many lost souls who had not yet had opportunity to become a greater part of the Empire chose to bear arms against the infrastructure projects the Empire strove to undertake. These barons with their unearned wealth and illicit trade drive children to rebellion, making them willing to destroy any Imperial structure no matter how peaceful, and willing to kill any number of citizens no matter how innocent, and yet they are here among us to tell us that they are our allies, and they number so many that we are blinded by their might and do not see them for what they are. The Emperor struggled day and night to work for the everyman, and wore the savage evidence of his tiresome effort, but never, even in the face of death, relaxed his commitment toward the progress of the infrastructure. And he lost his life at the hands of exactly those children who never had the opportunity for a normal life, and who lived in emotional strife over the realities of resource limitations and what it means for them. There is no greater plague on an Empire than the edge of its influence.

mykyta-R4 said:

Is this for fan edit? (I do not quite understand it - sorry.)

well, it’s not for anything that I’ve found, other than my own entertainment.

but basically, Star Wars is old. It shouldn’t be allowed to be controlled by a single entity, and I think that instead of Star Wars being considered a single story , it should be considered a Theme, where anyone anywhere is allowed to produce versions. Then, it should be managed like open source projects, where community members can participate in forks, with more popular forks rising to the top, but also representing the various fan communities.

THEN< , there should be a fork that basically addresses the “newtonian physics” fans, those people who were literally hoping to sit there and watch ships specifically manage their thrust angle in order to control their vector through combat.

I think Star Wars should be an open-source development community. anyway, I would subscribe to the newtonian physics combat fork.

I don’t really care about orbital mechanics, because for the most part that isn’t what matters for cinematic action. Instead, I am interested in close quarters combat which would happen while all of the vessels are in orbit together. So, although the ships are moving really fast, their changes in speed, and speed relative to each-other, aren’t actually that unbelievable.

I made some illustrations in ms paint (they’re pretty good, I should win an emmy), and assembled them into a powerpoint. Here is the summary:

basically, The fighters must full speed throttle at the Death Star, then, reverse throttle in order and control the angle WITH this reverse throttle to ride the curvature of the Death Star, until they come to a complete stop pointing straight down the exhaust shaft, where they must then fire two proton torpedoes that fly all the way down to the reactor core, setting off an over-temp chain reaction which destroys the Death Star.

In order to avoid being shot down by the various guns on the surface of the Death Star, the fighters will need to perform this hair-raising and extremely precise full throttle maneuver , down the inside of a shallow trench on the surface. Because the fighters will be so focused on performing an exact maneuver, they will be unable to dogfight while on the attack run, and will be only vulnerable to fighters. However, a skilled fighter will find them to be easier to hit than a pigeon shoot, because they will be slowing down for the duration of the maneuver, and ending in a complete stop.

here is the presentation. https://www.slideshare.net/troyschmidt31/death-star-approach-newtonian

Well, i checked out that flick on youtube, i see where youre coming from… they have that heat gun.

Mocata said:

Battle in Outer Space is a different movie.

I dont understand??

anyway, during the original trilogy the fighters arent shown fighting in atmospheric combat,

My hobby is to approach star wars from the standpoint that the unplanned imagination outmatches the engineering that the creators ultimately state as the “story”.

So they drew up the X-wing, and THIS was brilliant, looking only at the pictures of the X-wing, but once the canon worked out the details of what an X-wing would be for various story details, well, that was a miss, and the X-wing is real , and doesn’t mostly work that way.

First, it has vectored thrusters, and accelerates accordingly. An x-wing rockets. So does the EVEN BETTER A-wing. (well, the A-wing is space only combat).

That means that X-wings (controlled by electro-mechanical systems that are very resistant to electronic warfare) fight like the ship in the 2d game asteroid. The pilot has throttle, and hard-wire control over some vector plates, and space is big enough to allow this sort of flight. (actually, it’s hard, and takes a bad-ass pilot to make it work).

The X-wing is dual purpose, and is used in both atmospheres AND vacuum space, because so much combat crosses this boundary. Sure, you can fly an A-wing into an atmosphere, but a well built plane will make fotty totty out of a ship that flies on rockets alone, needs to fight gravity, AND can only shoot straight forward. The wings let the X-wing fly lateral to the surface, execute harder turns, and generally increase its combat survivability against specialized aircraft.

Then why isn’t the X-wing more aerodynamic?? aerodynamics won’t inhibit space capabilities, so why not just make a plane with space capable rockets?? well, X-wing pilots are best at shooting like asteroid. They “turret”, allowing them to hold any trajectory, but point any direction and set up a line of fire. Several space fighters working together can point as a group, and fire several lines of fire in any direction. Once in an atmosphere, the x-wing is still not a plane. in order to have superiority in combat, groups of fighters will need to still use coordinated lines of fire to best aircraft which are much lighter (not having space rockets and jump-drives), and significantly more agile. They can’t EVER out-dogfight aircraft. If the X-wing is boxy shaped, and intentionally not very aerodynamic, the pilot will be able to point the X-wing WITHOUT changing its trajectory, and lay down a line of fire because the craft is ALREADY creating enough turbulence in forward flight such that pointing won’t suddenly slam the craft with a brick wall like boundary layer. The turbulence will increase some amount, but the craft will not rip apart, and it will not try to suddenly foil off in a new direction. All of the X-wings in a formation will be able to by flying in a direction, suddenly all point in unison to any direction that isn’t straight down, and fire in unison without significantly altering their trajectory, giving them a counter-advantage AS WELL as allowing them to continue to fight in atmospheres in the same basic fashion as they do in space.

NeverarGreat said:

I don’t really understand much of what you describe, but it sounds just sciencey enough to be plausible.

Needs more diagrams and equations though.

Well, my idea is purely conceptual based on some silly articles, but essentially a particle collider makes a bunch of energy splatter that is mostly not perfectly defined. Out of these explosions is hypothesized the possibility of tiny black holes, that DO NOT become self-sustaining.

Mocata said:

A black hole is a collapsed star.

Well , a “true” black hole is a collapsed star, but there are a bunch of mathematical phenomenon that are described as “tiny” black holes, which are produced by other events.

okay, first let me say this:

When star wars was initially conceived, most of what resulted was simply a matter of raw imagination. They (the producers) didn’t imagine the inner workings of the engines used, they simply put engines. As for the lightsaber, it too was not practically described, it was a beam in the shape of a blade. if you hit two blades together, they blocked each-other, otherwise they cut basically anything else. The eventual descriptions of how everything “works” was not a part of the original production, and not a part of the inspiration for these themes. (engines and lightsabers being the themes.)

Having said this, it is assumed that when such a time occurs that someone is actually holding a lightsaber, and it works like the movie, well, that’s WHAT a lightsaber IS. If there’s no kyber crystals, well, that just means that you don’t need them. IF someone has something that DOESN’T work like the movies, (maybe the blades can’t block each-other), then in fact, that’s not a lightsaber, because lightsabers CAN block each-other, what you have is something different. It’s not that it turns out lightsabers can’t block each-other, it’s that you just didn’t make one.

Using this approach, it is my hobby to imagine exactly what IS going on with Star Wars technology, regardless of what the franchise or various other authors have as the current “canon”.

Basically, I’ve decided I know what the lightsaber is.

It’s a beam of tiny black-hole vortices that are the product of a particle collision stream. The vortices fire out of the collision and the length of the blade is basically how far they travel before they die. when they (the black-hole vortices) die, however, they are close enough to a following vortex such that the next vortex actually collects the dying vortex before it can explode. The lightsaber runs continuously, and when retracted is firing such a short distance it can be contained within a chamber. The lightsaber basically, then, cuts like the event horizon of a black hole that can only reach to the edge of the blade, which is where the glowing light is produced. (there is no gravitational effect outside of the blade. If you hold your hand close to the blade, you will feel the same warmth you would from a soft-glow bulb) The event horizon destroys and separates matter at the blade, collecting some of the matter, but allowing some to escape as light. (mostly, it’s not so bright, not like a plasma cutter is bright, more like a relatively soft glow, as presented in the films). The blades can block as a result of the various magnetic and gravitational forces involved in the phenomenon, with the immense gravity of the blades interior preventing magnetism from projecting from the blade (so they are not magnetic in any way for the user), but when in contact with another blade, the magnetism will be repulsive as the blades begin to intersect.

essentially, if it doesn’t work EXACTLY how they do in the original trilogy, it ISN’T a lightsaber, and lightsabers are certainly a real machine. (being my ultimate statement)